Author Topic: Zeal/Ocean Palace Paradox/Loose Ends?  (Read 7267 times)

Sentenal

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Zeal/Ocean Palace Paradox/Loose Ends?
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2005, 03:31:50 pm »
Quote from: Lazarus Plus
Couldn't one make an argument for the fact that Marle didn't travel through time the way the other's did? As in, voluntarily, with the INTENT of changing the past? Her travel the first time was a mistake, unless the Entity caused it to happen. The Immunity doesn't necessarily have to be automatic in all circumstances, does it?


my question was in response to this.  i was implying that gates could not read people mind, so intent would have nothing to do with time travelers immunity.

Lazarus Plus

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Zeal/Ocean Palace Paradox/Loose Ends?
« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2005, 11:41:01 am »
Quote from: Sentenal
Quote from: Lazarus Plus
Couldn't one make an argument for the fact that Marle didn't travel through time the way the other's did? As in, voluntarily, with the INTENT of changing the past? Her travel the first time was a mistake, unless the Entity caused it to happen. The Immunity doesn't necessarily have to be automatic in all circumstances, does it?


my question was in response to this.  i was implying that gates could not read people mind, so intent would have nothing to do with time travelers immunity.


Wasn't it already established that the gates were only made possible through the Entity? Therefore doesn't it make some sense that they, being an extension (of sorts) of it, would know the intent of the person moving through them?

Elrich2k3

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Zeal/Ocean Palace Paradox/Loose Ends?
« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2005, 02:50:16 pm »
Quote from: Lazarus Plus
Quote from: Sentenal
my question was in response to this.  i was implying that gates could not read people mind, so intent would have nothing to do with time travelers immunity.


Wasn't it already established that the gates were only made possible through the Entity? Therefore doesn't it make some sense that they, being an extension (of sorts) of it, would know the intent of the person moving through them?


If it was the entity creating the gates, then why would it not make her immune whether she meant to go through or not? [First post, haven't yet beat Chrono Cross, bear with me]

Sentenal

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Zeal/Ocean Palace Paradox/Loose Ends?
« Reply #48 on: April 04, 2005, 02:50:43 pm »
no.  gates dont read peoples mind.  and we know Lavos also has ties to gates, not just the entity.

GreenGannon

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Zeal/Ocean Palace Paradox/Loose Ends?
« Reply #49 on: April 04, 2005, 07:40:18 pm »
Quote from: Sentenal
no.  gates dont read peoples mind.  and we know Lavos also has ties to gates, not just the entity.


Lavos has only made one gate. And let's be honest, it was pathetic. The Entity's much better at it.

Zaperking

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Zeal/Ocean Palace Paradox/Loose Ends?
« Reply #50 on: April 04, 2005, 07:54:45 pm »
Yeah, and Masa and Mune are also great ones too. They work on dreams. Maybe the entity is even everyones dream? If the Planet has a dream to destroy Lavos, then what stops people from dreaming up gates to teleport back in time to save their mother (Lucca). Etc.

Sentenal

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Zeal/Ocean Palace Paradox/Loose Ends?
« Reply #51 on: April 04, 2005, 08:09:15 pm »
maybe Masa and Mune are just heroin addicts?

but back to serious things:  Lavos still made a gate.  he [probably] made himself a pocket dimension.  anyway, lavos is capable.

and what exactly do you mean about the entity and dreams?

GreenGannon

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Zeal/Ocean Palace Paradox/Loose Ends?
« Reply #52 on: April 04, 2005, 10:59:35 pm »
Quote from: Sentenal
maybe Masa and Mune are just heroin addicts?


Har har har

Quote
but back to serious things:  Lavos still made a gate.  he [probably] made himself a pocket dimension.  anyway, lavos is capable.


Really? Making a pocket dimension is probably far less difficult than time travel, and even so, the one example of time travel Lavos has shown proved extremely volatile. Although yes, he does show the ability to send people through time, just not to a specific point.

Quote
and what exactly do you mean about the entity and dreams?


Well, take the final chapter or Chrono Trigger, in the japanese version, it was "The End of the Planet's Dream." Chron Cross ends with "The planet's dream is not yet over" Or something to that extent.

Chrono'99

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Zeal/Ocean Palace Paradox/Loose Ends?
« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2005, 08:12:02 am »
From the Chrono Cross instruction book :
Quote
The dream of our planet once had
Defeated the darkness
And brought forth a brighter future.
However this was also the dawn of a new nightmare...

The final battle between dragons, humans, and FATE
That will surpass even space and time...
Is about to begin...

Our planet's dream
Has not yet ended...

SilentMartyr

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Zeal/Ocean Palace Paradox/Loose Ends?
« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2005, 02:50:57 pm »
I think the final chapter title is in reference to the fact that you are about to end the dream. But hey we can hope right?

Zaperking

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Zeal/Ocean Palace Paradox/Loose Ends?
« Reply #55 on: April 06, 2005, 11:13:46 pm »
Either end the dream of the ultimate destruction of Lavos or the acctual and of the Series.... >.>

Sentenal

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Zeal/Ocean Palace Paradox/Loose Ends?
« Reply #56 on: April 06, 2005, 11:42:36 pm »
lets hope its the former then :)

Shadow_Dragon

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Zeal/Ocean Palace Paradox/Loose Ends?
« Reply #57 on: April 20, 2005, 12:48:23 am »
Out of all the theories presented here, I think that Marle didn't want to change the past, and thus remained in her own dimension, but everyone else used time traveling to change something about the past, present, or future, and in doing so their own dimension was split off from the original dimension, the one that would've taken place if they hadn't traveled in time... but Marle's   lack of wanting to change time, rather than to change time and therefor split off into a new dimension where a new future could be possible, sent her simply back in time, not to a splintered dimension

(i haven't read anything about that 'time traveler's immunity' thing that everyone's refering to, but i think i understand the basic concept but through a different logic)

however, i don't fully believe that theory

i forget how Lucca made the gate key, and whether it was made with any special material, but i'm going to assume that it was just something that magnified the power of space distortion (the teleporter) into time distortion..

I, actually, think that Marle's pendant, not Marle's unwanting to change the past, had the ability to send her into the past of her own timeline, and thus her actions sin the past of her own timeline would affect her original 'present'.. similarly, Crono's actions in the first trip to 600 AD would also affect the present (allowing his saving the queen to fix the future and Marle), but if Lucca were the one to save her with the gate key two timelines would be created, one in which Marle did infact get sent to the DBT, and one in which Leena (was that the queen's name) was saved and resulted in Marle's continuing existance (correct me if i'm wrong, but i think that Lucca doesn't come with the gate key until after Crono save's Leena)

i forget exactly, but iirc the pendant was made using lavos' power, allowing lavos' power to bend the normal rules of time travel... i forget, since i haven't played CT in a while, when Lavos' opened a gate, but, according to my theory, the gate must've allowed the party to move through their own dimension (but, iirc, they moved into the future, so even with normal time travel they'd still remain in their own dimension)... then again, the entity's power to make gates must be higher than lavos', so i guess the entity could've had the power to make gates that go into the past but remain in the same dimension


i really want to play CT again, becuase i think the 'happy' ending of CT is an illusion, since it's just a splinter off of the timeline in which Lavos does destroy the world, which still exists, even if unknown to the people in the new-non-Lavos timeline... then again, maybe all of the gates leading into the past may have been made by the entity (disabling splinter dimensions), but in accordance with that there'd have been a lot of paradoxes, or w/e they're called, like Marle's disappearing

Sentenal

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Zeal/Ocean Palace Paradox/Loose Ends?
« Reply #58 on: April 20, 2005, 01:34:07 pm »
Marle's intentions had nothing to do with it.  She was taken back 400 years ago, changing history, ragardless of what she wanted to do.

http://www.chronocompendium.com/wiki/index.php?title=On_The_Axioms_And_Corollaries_Governing_Temporal_Transforms
That has alot of theorys and such, all explained and supported.  Refer to the "Temporal Analysis" section.

Lucca made the Gate Key from the telepod, and she came back in time to 600ad after Crono just after Marle disappeared, and before they saved Queen Leene.

Anyway, upon further thinking about this, this situation creates yet another paradox (similar to the guardia-family line paradox).  Marle goes back to 600ad, changing history.  In this changed history, the stop looking for the real queen.  The paradox were talking here is that Marle should now be protected from changes by Time Traveler's immunity, but it also creates another one I don't think has been discussed.  At that point, Crono and Lucca do not yet have Time Travelers immunity.  In the new timeline, where the queen was killed, and therefore Marle's blood-line would have vanished.  Thus, the Crono and Lucca in the new timeline after Queen Leene was killed would not have been able to meet Marle(because there would be no new versions of her), and therefore they would have not gone back in time after her.

Salvadeiro

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Zeal/Ocean Palace Paradox/Loose Ends?
« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2005, 07:30:46 pm »
I don't know if this has been stated already, I'm much too lazy to go back and read it but, forgive me anyway.  If Zeal is anything like Babylon, can't we call Zeal somewhat of the Hanging Gardens of Babylon?  Makes Sense to me.