Was Lavos Trying to Shaft Itself?!

[Zenning]

What we know:

It is stated in Chrono Cross that the human mind developed three times  faster than it normally would have, because of contact with Lavos, probably through the Frozen Flame, and it was through the power of the Frozen Flame that the Zeal dynasty created their kingdom. And then, created the Mammon Machine.

Lavos supplied humanity with two things that led one, would have led to its own downfall, and two, which actually lead to its downfall: one being the intellect Lavos granted to humans to make to Mammon Machine, and two, magic which could also be used against Lavos.


My questions:

Why would Lavos give humans intellect that could be used against it, as well as magic that could be used against it?

How did Zeal get the idea that Lavos's life force could be extracted from its body and used as a power source?

[nightmare975]

What we know:

It is stated in Chrono Cross that the human mind developed three times  faster than it normally would have, because of contact with Lavos, probably through the Frozen Flame, and it was through the power of the Frozen Flame that the Zeal dynasty created their kingdom. And then, created the Mammon Machine.

Lavos supplied humanity with two things that led one, would have led to its own downfall, and two, which actually lead to its downfall: one being the intellect Lavos granted to humans to make to Mammon Machine, and two, magic which could also be used against Lavos.


My questions:

Why would Lavos give humans intellect that could be used against it, as well as magic that could be used against it?

How did Zeal get the idea that Lavos's life force could be extracted from its body and used as a power source?

My answer was that maybe Lavos thought that he could wipe the human race out each time they got close to being able to destroy them.

Support:

-Lavos had destroyed Zeal when they had gotten too advanced.
-Lavos again wipes out 1999 AD when it seems they had gotten too advanced.

The only reason he lost was he was unable to control time itself, which is probably why he merged with Schala to bvecome the Time Devourer, one who could destroy the very fabric of time itself.

[Sentenal]

I always thought thought that the Strong the planet was, the stronger he would become when he finally made his move, and "absorb" (not in the literal sense) the planet.

[Burning Zeppelin]

Or maybe he didnt plan to give them the energy, but just...you know was there. Just like how we gain energy from the sun, water, uranium, alien lifefo- i mean, just ignore that *Pulls out MIB thingy*

[Lord J Esq]

My questions:

Why would Lavos give humans intellect that could be used against it, as well as magic that could be used against it?

How did Zeal get the idea that Lavos's life force could be extracted from its body and used as a power source?

Item the first: I am unconvinced Lavos was even aware of the effect the Frozen Flame had on humanity, which follows from the opinion that Lavos is not sentient. If Lavos was not even aware of the effect, then let alone could it have been Lavos' deliberate intention to bring about.

Item the second: Lavos emanated a great deal of power. the Kingdom of Zeal must have been aware of these emanations, and speculated as to their potential benefit to the realm.

[Zaperking]

Lavos is pretty much proven to be sentient. Aslong as theres an arbiter and the flame that connects to him, it pretty much means he is. Besides the point that he wanted to use the FF to save himself after he was already destroyed.

He's probably just sentient to a.. low level. That or he never shows it because he doesn't want to.

[Lord J Esq]

Lavos is pretty much proven to be sentient. Aslong as theres an arbiter and the flame that connects to him, it pretty much means he is. Besides the point that he wanted to use the FF to save himself after he was already destroyed.

He's probably just sentient to a.. low level. That or he never shows it because he doesn't want to.

I notice that you always continue to refer to Lavos as sentient, without regard to the argument to the contrary, and that you always continue to refer to Lavos as "he," even though it is a genderless "it." You don't do much help for the former with regard to the latter. If you want to be taken at your word on the big questions, you ought to make sure you get the obvious ones right. Anyhow, rather than hijacking this topic on a debate over Lavos' sentience, you can find my best arguments against Lavos' sentience here and here, although if you haven't read them by now I'm not sure that you'd be interested in doing so in the future. In any event, there is no shortage of plausible explanations for Zenning's questions without resorting to the dubious assumption that Lavos is sentient, so at the very least the possibility of my aforementioned reply in this topic remains open.

[Burning Zeppelin]

When people say "he" they don't necessarily mean it as a gender, it's just commonplace, as calling a lifeform and "it" doesn't really cut it for them, just like how people call god "he" (all my replies turn into a topic over god don't they)

[Zaperking]

When I call Lavos he, I'm doing it in terms of 'it' like saying "he" even for a lady back in the olden days was used to specify a being.

Anyway, Lavos is a female. The Time Devourer is a Female. There, answered that. But if the gender is based on Schala, that would only prove that Schala is controlling the TD Oo

Anyway, I read your posts.

Just because he doesn't talk nor have dialoug mean that he's non sentient. Crono never damn talks. He's a retard for all I care, and yet he's sentient.
Lavos has stratagies, Lavos has power. Lavos underestimated a group of teenagers and was destroyed. A non Sentient being would not be able to underestimate or think of itself as being God. Lavos proves that he is more powerful than anyone, if you poke me - ill kill you type of a thing. This was demonstrated in Zeal. And then Lavos found the time to destroy the world in 1999AD. And I don't want to Hijack this either

[DeweyisOverrated]

What we know:
My answer was that maybe Lavos thought that he could wipe the human race out each time they got close to being able to destroy them.

Support:

-Lavos had destroyed Zeal when they had gotten too advanced.
-Lavos again wipes out 1999 AD when it seems they had gotten too advanced.

I'm gonna disagree with this.  He only wiped out Zeal because he was summoned.  Had Queen Zeal not been a power-hungry whore, Zeal would've been around for a long time.  He didn't wipe them out cause they were too advanced, they just hapenned to be advanced, pissed him off, and he cleaned house.

You can also back this up with how Magus was (more than likely) destroyed in the original timeline.  Not because he was too advanced, but because Magus summoned him and pised him off.

[nightmare975]

I'm gonna disagree with this.  He only wiped out Zeal because he was summoned.  Had Queen Zeal not been a power-hungry whore, Zeal would've been around for a long time.  He didn't wipe them out cause they were too advanced, they just hapenned to be advanced, pissed him off, and he cleaned house.

But you would have to be really advanced to summon up a being of destruction.

[fxar99]

I'm gonna disagree with this.  He only wiped out Zeal because he was summoned.  Had Queen Zeal not been a power-hungry whore, Zeal would've been around for a long time.  He didn't wipe them out cause they were too advanced, they just hapenned to be advanced, pissed him off, and he cleaned house.

But you would have to be really advanced to summon up a being of destruction.

Zeal had probably been advanced for many years until Crono's arrival. So, the destruction of Zeal had nothing to do with how much advanced its people were, but the time Queen Zeal chose to execute her brilliant plan. If she hadn't moved the Mammon Machine to the Ocean Palace, nothing would have happened.

[nightmare975]

I'm gonna disagree with this.  He only wiped out Zeal because he was summoned.  Had Queen Zeal not been a power-hungry whore, Zeal would've been around for a long time.  He didn't wipe them out cause they were too advanced, they just hapenned to be advanced, pissed him off, and he cleaned house.

But you would have to be really advanced to summon up a being of destruction.

Zeal had probably been advanced for many years until Crono's arrival. So, the destruction of Zeal had nothing to do with how much advanced its people were, but the time Queen Zeal chose to execute her brilliant plan. If she hadn't moved the Mammon Machine to the Ocean Palace, nothing would have happened.

But she did, and that's all that mattered. If you do a what if statment, go with something like, OMFG What if Lavos destoryed teh Prehistoric era!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[Zaperking]

Zeal may have still been destroyed without Lavos' intervention. A think the game tries to imply that aslong as any of Lavos' power is taken in, the Queen will lose her sanity and attempt to gain immortality. The only way I can see around this is the machine was destroyed earlier, then Zeal would need to remain afloat by the Sun Stone, and since the Sun Stone is at the end of it's life, Zeal would one day still fall.

[Sentenal]

Zeal was only destroyed because the Mamon Machine was taken to the Ocean Palace.  Thats the only reason Lavos destroyed Zeal.  Zeal would have had another fall, or something else, if that had not happend.