Author Topic: Revised Plot and Planning Thread  (Read 22621 times)

ZeaLitY

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Re: Revised Plot and Planning Thread
« Reply #90 on: November 23, 2006, 01:46:38 am »
Just to keep track, things we're adding:

  • Cyborg's damaged and has processing unit augmented; he returns to 1002 A.D. to gain an understanding of his life, but Porre scientists can't interface and reprogram him
  • King Zeal's new Zeal bid and the party's speech, and on the flipside, Lavos's dark statements and tying up the theme of humanity unchecked
  • Flame sequences limited to characters present
  • Belthasar reveals the Time Research Lab to the Central Regime in the ending
  • Holes in Belthasar's history at Chronopolis (about the Fall of Guardia)
  • Belthasar stimulates old Gates for the party's use with the TDC until the Epoch is found, except in Zeal; we'll justify this by the fact that an entire time research laboratory is being used to pull them back; it's not like Belthasar can simply just re-open the Gates...it takes a lot of power.
  • King Zeal is responsible for the Fall of Guardia.
Things to be clarified:

  • The entire Cakulha scenario
  • Dalton / King Zeal reunion
  • Melchior / Gaspar / Belthasar in the field

My suggestions

  • Without awkwardly resurrecting something, the Cakulha thing can be solved if a militant robot launches the missile regardless of Cakulha's decision (except in the scenario in which he launches it anyway). I'm actually utterly lost on this now if anyone wants to re-summarize the proposed plot changes. This idea still has the chase scene...if we have the Epoch that early. I forget.
  • Aside from a possible Dreamer's Wing sidequest, we don't have something for a second return to 12001 B.C. Well, if we do something unrelated, the sidequest in that era can end with the party discovering the three Gurus meeting to discuss the prospect of Lavos and other issues. It'd be amazing; we'd see the Gurus before anything Chrono-related even began to happen (before the Entity even effected the Ocean Palace Incident). It would also let them discuss the prospect of Lavos's power going out of control.

A big idea:

The Dalton scenario seems a little weak. Dalton might have some mystical item needed for the Chrono Break, so Magus goes over and blows him away, yet the Chrono Break is deemed unneeded and immediately dropped. Here's my idea.

King Zeal, though aware of Lavos's control at some point, still could not control himself. Lavos and King Zeal both despised Crono, but King Zeal harbored a resentment for Lavos regardless. As King Zeal was given directives through time, he learned of the Chrono Break and paid a visit to Dalton, stealing the item. With some input from Zeal's archives, he was able to construct something akin to the Chrono Break -- a temporally offensive weapon. However, he realized that eliminating Crono might allow Lavos to ultimately succeed, and that he might not survive the entire ordeal anyhow. So, still within acceptable behavior for Lavos, he went to 1005 A.D. and used it on Crono and Marle in that era.

Now, you might say, is King Zeal so evil after realizing Lavos was controlling him? Enough to still want to kill Crono for just getting in his way? The answer is yes. King Zeal is utterly and completely enthralled by the Frozen Flame, Lavos or no Lavos. He has gone too far (just like the theme of humanity); it was doing so in Zeal that originally resulted in his first death, even. So King Zeal, aware of Lavos's intent, makes these two moves -- the first to ultimately kill Crono, and the second to resurrect Zeal (stopped before the DBT). This maintains King Zeal's villainy. I was worried that he'd come out as a tragic figure, like Queen Zeal or other pawns of fate. This maintains his evil qualities and also ties into the theme of humanity growing wildly unchecked in the pursuit of power.

So, Magus arrives and Dalton does not have the item, but challenges Magus. But all that stuff above still looms behind the scenes. It might be hard to explain, but it also shows how King Zeal could even touch Crono considering the player matches him in battle throughout the quest. The "cheap knockoff" of the Chrono Break makes it happen. What do you think?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 02:07:03 am by ZeaLitY »

ZeaLitY

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Re: Revised Plot and Planning Thread
« Reply #91 on: November 23, 2006, 02:35:33 am »
The only two issues I'm seeing are, with their solutions too:

  • Why don't the team members just go back to stop King Zeal at that moment, then? Well, of course, the Porre revolution was still happening, with or without King Zeal. He just tried to take some personal vengeance.
  • Big ethical question. Why don't the heroes just come in and smooth things over with Porre and Guardia then and avoid war totally? We're having Glenn rationalize their time traveling by noting they're acting to protect life and the free will of organisms to determine their own paths and dreams in the universe. The idea is that by doing that, they'd be forcing their will upon the timeline and the will of others.

But this is where it gets stupid. What's to stop them from preventing the war of 1005 A.D. anyway? The only possible answer I'm finding is some kind of Temporal Prime Directive stating that huge changes should not be undertaken and that time travel should only be used to counter other foreign influences of time or instances of the complete annihilation of humanity. Which sounds great on paper, and is essentially what the heroes are doing. But what irks me is that in the ending, in touching upon these events, guess who'd be explaining it?



Yes, Belthasar, the man who violates such a directive before AND after Crimson Echoes blows up in his face. You could argue that he learned his lesson, but creating an entire civilization of El Nido and effectively messing up Dragonian civilization in the Reptite Dimension...is hard to justify in that light.

Ah, this is a good feeling. It's just like when we used to debate analysis back in the old days before we figured out mostly everything. Amazing that we're now debating a hypothetical plot, which could only be made possible with the power of the Compendium.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 02:37:53 am by ZeaLitY »

ZeaLitY

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nightmare975

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Re: Revised Plot and Planning Thread
« Reply #93 on: November 23, 2006, 11:43:31 am »
That link told me you are unquestionably gay. :?

Chrono'99

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Re: Revised Plot and Planning Thread
« Reply #94 on: November 23, 2006, 02:23:23 pm »
How will the 11,998 BC gate work, considering where it is?

Ah, good call. I didn't thought about it... I think the easiest solution is to correct the overworld map and add a small land passage connecting to two landmasses. The problem will be solved, and the resulting landmass will also be aptly reminiscent of the Medina continent this way.

I don't have the time right now but I'll have to ponder a bit about these Cakhula/Dalton/etc. ideas, it's a lot to grasp at once but it's getting great in any case.

That link doesn't work for me neither.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Revised Plot and Planning Thread
« Reply #95 on: November 23, 2006, 02:31:31 pm »
It's working, though herograw as always took the opportunity to mess around...that's our future export folder. Had to make sure it wouldn't be publicly accessible.

Chrono'99

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Re: Revised Plot and Planning Thread
« Reply #96 on: November 23, 2006, 02:43:22 pm »
Well I'll address an easy point first:

Quote
Belthasar stimulates old Gates for the party's use with the TDC until the Epoch is found, except in Zeal; we'll justify this by the fact that an entire time research laboratory is being used to pull them back; it's not like Belthasar can simply just re-open the Gates...it takes a lot of power.

Actually, my reasoning was that the TDC (the device which sends) can reach any year in time, but the Temporal Catch (the device which brings back) can only reach Entity eras. The party would be sent to Zeal normally, but would have to find Gaspar's original Time Egg prototype and break it like in the intro, to allow the Temporal Catch to "find" them in the timestream. After the return from the Reptite timeline, the Temporal Catch will be able to find anyone in any time thanks to the Dragon Tooth.

nightmare975

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Re: Revised Plot and Planning Thread
« Reply #97 on: November 23, 2006, 03:54:37 pm »
I'm starting to not like the way 12,000 BC looks in CE, we seem to be making a landmass the never existed 2 years ago suddenly appear (You know, where Sargon's house and Beast Forest is). If you look at the original maps, Last Village lies between the portals to Kajar and Enhasa. I think we should remove beast forest and replace it with an area around the ice bergs in the water. Sargon's house should be the ruins of the Enhasa teleporter and Dalton's Hideout should only be accesible through the Kajar portal to the north.

I've also provided a picture for my evidence. Just look at the forest I circled! Still in the same place!

Please note I'm just wanting to help make this game as cannon as possible.

[attachment deleted by admin]

Chrono'99

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Re: Revised Plot and Planning Thread
« Reply #98 on: November 23, 2006, 04:13:18 pm »
I see no problem with changing the map layout. If someone wants to try it, note that the only constraint is that the entrance to Dalton's Hideout must be out of sight (out of the visible screen) when you enter the world map from another location. If the entrance is visible when you enter the world map, it will appear open for some reason.

Chrono'99

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Re: Revised Plot and Planning Thread
« Reply #99 on: November 23, 2006, 06:31:08 pm »
Here's what I imagine now for the Cakulha scenario in chapter 12. It's a bit long, even though I try to be concise:

The cast has returned from the "Reptite timeline". Belthasar informs the party that a Reptite called Cakulha is causing some crisis on Zenan mainland. The political situation in the future is complicated, so Belthasar feels the need to explain it to the party...but first, he tells them to recover the Epoch in 1,002 A.D. in case something would happen to Chronopolis.

After doing so and returning, the party learns about the future political situation. Another long Belthasar speech would probably be too much at this point, so what we can have is Belthasar telling the party to check the computer for the information, if they want (if not, they can go directly). So: in the aftermaths of a disastrous nuclear conflict in the 22th century, the nations of the world decided to unite in a Central Regime to prevent other tragedies. In reality, the Vanguard organization is almost synonymous with this regime: it controls most of it. Rebellions form from time to time but are always easily crushed. In 2,302 A.D., the situation is different because of Cakulha. He joined the current (terroristic) rebellion and has managed to acquire a nuclear missile that they plan to use on a city of the Central Regime. Belthasar doesn't really know why Cakulha joined them, but the party has to take care of him in any case.

The party makes its way in the rebel base fighting a few robots and a majority of human enemies (we'll replace Krawlie with a mecha-armored fighter...or something). Whenever there are no enemy around the party to hear him, Cakulha appears on a computer screen and ask the party ethical questions about what they did to his world. He also reveals that his only goal in this conflict is to gather resource and acquire the means necessary to find Chronopolis. He can't directly use the resource of the Central Regime, because he doesn't want to tell anyone about the Time Fortress and because they'd have used him as a guinea pig if they ever found him. So he joined this non-xenophobic rebellion instead and tries to make them overthrow the regime. After all questions are answered, one out of three possible outcomes for Cakulha is reached:

1. He commits suicide.
2. He's defeated in battle by the party.
3. He tries to stop the missile launch but is killed by the rebels.

In the end, the remaining rebels manage to launch the missile regardless of Cakulha's fate. The party jumps in the Epoch and blow it before it reaches its target. At the minimum, the cutscene will show the missile, the Epoch, and some rebel jets flying above the ocean, and an explosion with DrawGeometry and fire explosion sprites. If we can, we'll add lateral close-ups of the flying stuff, some sort of view of the city, etc.

After returning to Belthasar, the party is told that a few rebel robots actually managed to hear Cakulha and them mentioning Chronopolis, and that rumors of its existence is starting to spread on the mainland. Proto 5-02C might or might not be mentioned, but I don't think a side-quest with him is feasible. People don't believe those robots, except the Vanguard of the Central Regime... For now though, Belthasar allows/lets the party go visit Ayla in Prehistory. Thus the next chapter is unchanged except for the Epoch.

At the end of chapter 15, the Vanguard cease to exist to threaten Chronopolis, but Belthasar explains that the Central Regime still formed, though it's slightly less powerful and totalitarian. It doesn't try to find Chronopolis.


Overall, this chapter is quite heavy in terms of plot/background, especially with the 2 layers, Cakulha and the political conflict. This flows well with the rest of the plot though. After the relative simplicity of the Reptite world, we return to the complicated and contradictory human world in which the lone Cakulha is simply crushed by the events surrounding him...
« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 06:38:22 pm by Chrono'99 »

ZeaLitY

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Re: Revised Plot and Planning Thread
« Reply #100 on: November 23, 2006, 06:56:36 pm »
Okay, that sounds good.

Chrono'99

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Re: Revised Plot and Planning Thread
« Reply #101 on: November 23, 2006, 07:15:19 pm »
The Fall of Guardia thing: I'm not really sure that involving the Chrono Break here would be the best solution. It makes the artifact seem truely foreboding, but still, the Fall of Guardia is peripheral, sort of like an aftermaths of all this story (and CT originally). That's fine, the problem is associating it with the name of a "Chrono Break" that we never see. It's almost like a call to another sequel, it decreases, even if just a little, the ability of CT:CE to stand by itself as a self-contained story.

I think King Zeal can participate in the Fall without fear of losing though. If we follow the Compendium axioms on time travel, Crono and Marle (and Lucca) don't even exist in 1,005 A.D. when Zeal comes to destroy the kingdom. If we put ourselves in the mind of a person who still think with other, flawed axioms, it still works nonetheless: Crono's body is heavily wounded after CT:CE, and Zeal can certainly face Marle alone.

Well, Lucca survives in all cases... but we can probably come up with other explanations for her. While I don't ever see Crono or Marle running away and hiding, perhaps Lucca did, to protect Kid.

As for the fact that the party does't try to prevent this Fall, I think Belthasar should really hide it to them altogether. Among all the crazy things that he needs for Project Kid, there's probably a powerful and rich Central Regime.

In this version, the Chrono Break continues to be a quickly dropped plot element though, so...I'm not sure what's best.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Revised Plot and Planning Thread
« Reply #102 on: November 23, 2006, 07:40:06 pm »
Okay. We'll still need something for Dalton / King Zeal then, I suppose...and I guess Dalton challenging Magus will sound better than Magus simply killing him outright (Magus will still feel a little bad as a move to the Magil enlightenment).

Does the Zeal sidequest sound okay? And should Proto-502C be dropped? Perhaps he can be added in the mall sidequest at some point, like a...side-sidequest. In lieu of getting some item, they have to go wrap it up with that guy. If this sounds attractive, any simple ideas for dealing with him?

nightmare975

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Re: Revised Plot and Planning Thread
« Reply #103 on: November 23, 2006, 10:55:02 pm »
You know, it says that Belthasar arrived in 2300 AD with a Zeal Laboratory, but everything in Chronopolis is futuristic. What happened to his lab?

ZeaLitY

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Re: Revised Plot and Planning Thread
« Reply #104 on: November 23, 2006, 11:08:08 pm »
That was our attempt to explain that quote above. Belthasar is shown in Chrono Trigger to travel without any kind of lab coming with him to ruined 2300 A.D.