Author Topic: IRC Policy??  (Read 5043 times)

Ramsus

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2009, 12:34:02 am »
I just have a few things to say:

Yes.  Tea helped/took part in the leak.  Yes, she tried to return to the site under aliases.  Yes, its understandable that you banned her both ways.
However, I have to contest you when you start to describe her like a whiny bitch, or anything about her being annoying.  Any time I've been on irc she has been just like any other person on the irc.  Please, if you would, post a chat log or something showing this, and I will believe and resepct it.

However, if we wish to talk about annoying... Laith was annoying.  yes indeed.  But rethinking Shadow D Darkman's irc ban?  Umm, he was just as bad as Laith, in my opinion.

Shall I go even further?  Yes, I shall.

You, yourself, ZeaLitY, have been quite an annoying at times as well (albeit not as often), like when you post your "FUCK BALLS FISHSHIT DICKSTICKS SHIT ASSCOCK FUCK" rants on irc, and all the supposed "surreal" humor.

Yes, I went there.  I know that some people have said that sometimes its just you and your rage and anger being let out, but that still doesn't make it not annoying.

Yeah, go ahead, turn this on me if you wish.  My forum posts may be short, and you may think they're annoying, but usually I try to refrain from posting something unless its for a legit reason, like to say I liked something someone said, or maybe to post my short 2 cents into a conversation, or to go along with a joke.  However if you still wish to say that my posts are annoying, I will respect that as long as you don't start saying other things that have no basis, or a legitimate basis, from my point of view.

Also, the reason so many people on irc were disappointed in tea leaving, and cared nothing much about the other people, is because tea was really the only one of those people that were ever constantly on irc, she made herself known on irc.  
If I knew Arutoa or whoever or anyone else that was related to the incident (that I had any care for) then sure, I would be disappointed in their banning/leaving as well.  Thing is, more people knew her than the others.  Nothing to do with her girlyness (directly, that is.  Her girlyness might have affected/caused some of her irc and forum popularity).

I'm not saying this all out of "I have something against you!!!!".  I'm stating this as a "Lets just get down to it."


EDIT: also, it might be constructive to help stop this dispute if someone was to compile a list of arguments, counter arguments, and counter counters to all the reasons why/why not the banning should take place.  I personally have no care either way, but some people do.  I would make this list myself, however I dont know, and never knew, many of the arguments and counters argued in this situation... so...

Code: [Select]
Jun 20 2009:18:16 < tea> ... no. Please no!
Jun 20 2009:18:16 < tea> It's fun there, but no one is ever there!
Jun 20 2009:18:16 < tea> No Ramsus, no FaFniR, no ZealitY, no NOBODY!
Jun 20 2009:18:17 < tea> Ramsus, don't make me live there forever!

I'd get that kind of reaction anytime she felt as though her banning might soon take effect. Also, this thread is a good summary/list of arguments for and against her banning. Did you read it?

Also, if you think Zeality should be banned from IRC, feel free to bring up another topic. We can argue that out, and I'll carry out the sentence if he really should be. However, banning Zeality and banning Laith have nothing to do with banning teaflower. Be sure to separate the two topics clearly when you argue any of them.

Lord J Esq

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2009, 12:38:38 am »
Do you have the authority to do that, Ramsus? Nobody voted you as the site Arbiter, and so, unless ZeaLitY appointed you, you wouldn't have any standing to ban the site owner. Even if you have the technical means, it'd be a pretty severe abuse of power.

(Edited for clarity.)

RySenkari

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2009, 12:42:12 am »
Quote
She risked the entire Chrono Compendium and the personal well-being and financial weal of myself and Agent 12. She nearly made it so no one could enjoy the Compendium: not me, not you, not lurkers, not random visitors stopping by for a quick piece of information.

Well, that's only if you think there was a good chance Square would sue you and take down this site over an alpha leak by someone that wasn't you guys.

Her betraying your trust was a legitimate reason to ban her (and the other leakers), but I'm still skeptical that the alpha leak put you or this site in any danger. It misrepresented your work (another good reason to ban the leakers), of course.

I still think the leakers deserved the banhammer, and the important thing is what you perceived the danger level to be, as the risk was yours and not mine.

ZeaLitY

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2009, 12:44:51 am »
Well, more than a real lawsuit, the issue is just some kind of simple punitive measure. Square could easily come to someone and say "give us $15,000 in settlement or we'll sue you. You cannot tell anyone about this or we'll sue you." Or, Square could just tell our domain to pull the plug on the site; commercial servers usually comply with this sort of thing. So more than being sued, there was a risk of other actions that could easily be fired off.

ZaichikArky

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2009, 12:50:06 am »
She risked the entire Chrono Compendium and the personal well-being and financial weal of myself and Agent 12. She nearly made it so no one could enjoy the Compendium: not me, not you, not lurkers, not random visitors stopping by for a quick piece of information. And she's been banned. How can you people support such an incredible breach of ethics and justice by doubting the validity of a ban given for an action that endangered the entire site and threatened two people with extortionate fines?

I guess people want to forgive her because she is a very well-liked and was a very important member here. Also, she's very young and impressionable. I think that she really didn't think through what she was doing because she didn't know the harm in it. I guess she figured it out afterwards, but it was too late then. She is sorry about it, and even if you think what she did was inexcusable, I think it's more important that nothing became of it.

BROJ

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2009, 12:51:40 am »
This isn't mentioning all the white-knighting and e-pussying that was going on over her.
I'll have you know I was 'grey-knighting'! :roll:

...Well looks like it's time to hit the ol' dusty trail. There's really no more good argumentation to this topic as it looks like nobody else is going to get 'unbanned'.

IAmSerge

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2009, 12:59:11 am »
It's distinct, because it's 1) enjoyed by some members of the community who also participate in it, 2) not malicious in any way, shape, or form, and 3) not trolling. I'm not insulting people or impinging upon their fun.

None the less it can be annoying.  Laith and Shadow D Darkman enjoyed eachother's company and inane comments.  However, yes, they trolled and what you were doing was not.  So yes, I will accept that distinction. (but it still bothers me =D ehehe)

Now on the matter of tea...It is understandable for someone to make a personal request once or twice...

...however if people are bothering you 24/7, and if shes bothing you everytime you get on MSN, then yes, I would call that annoying.

Also, if you think Zeality should be banned from IRC, feel free to bring up another topic. We can argue that out, and I'll carry out the sentence if he really should be. However, banning Zeality and banning Laith have nothing to do with banning teaflower. Be sure to separate the two topics clearly when you argue any of them.

I posted about Laith because somone had posted about him priorly.  Same with teaflower.  I posted about ZeaLitY (and myself) as an example, as a statment like "We've all done something wrong at one time or another, we arent 100% innnocent, and no ones perfect."  I'm not saying ZeaLitY or myself are ban-worthy... I just got the vibe from this topic that everyone was all like "condemn condemn condemn" and so it just felt so... dark, and condemning.


Do you have the authority to do that, Ramsus? Nobody voted you as the site Arbiter, and so, unless ZeaLitY appointed you, you wouldn't have any standing to ban the site owner. Even if you have the technical means, it'd be a pretty severe abuse of power.

Really dont think he intended to, it seemed just like a smart remark to him misunderstanding the purpose of my post.

RySenkari

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2009, 01:09:25 am »
Quote
Well, more than a real lawsuit, the issue is just some kind of simple punitive measure. Square could easily come to someone and say "give us $15,000 in settlement or we'll sue you. You cannot tell anyone about this or we'll sue you." Or, Square could just tell our domain to pull the plug on the site; commercial servers usually comply with this sort of thing. So more than being sued, there was a risk of other actions that could easily be fired off.

I never thought of it that way. That might actually be more of a reason to refrain from bashing Square (which I won't do on here any more, promise), than not to let CE leak, since they could probably demand a settlement right now if they really wanted to. But you do make a good point about the risk you guys are facing if the game is distributed through surreptitious means. Thanks for pointing it out.

Samopoznanie

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2009, 03:27:04 am »
The IRC is part of the compendium though. If you don't want banned from it then don't get banned from the compendium's forums, and vias versa. It's simple and fair.
Agreed. I don't even see how there can be a debate over it, myself. I didn't know any of the banned folks particularly well, but given their decision to leak the damn thing, and their total indifference toward the possible consequences for the CE staff, they don't have a place in the community IMO.

I think the decision to give them their own meeting place at #outlaws is both generous and appropriate. Shows the admins to have a sense of humour about them by the title.

Ramsus

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2009, 04:54:41 am »
Do you have the authority to do that, Ramsus? Nobody voted you as the site Arbiter, and so, unless ZeaLitY appointed you, you wouldn't have any standing to ban the site owner. Even if you have the technical means, it'd be a pretty severe abuse of power.

(Edited for clarity.)

That would be by my authority as a friend, which I wouldn't consider myself if I let him ruin the very community I helped him build, or if I let him become unruly and tyrannical slave to his own cult of personality simply because he was surrounded by too many yes-men or he made the mistake of removing everyone who'd be honest and frank with him. I know he's better than that -- much better, in fact -- and so I'll never sit idly by and quietly let him become the object of his own disgust.

And ultimately, even I am accountable -- if not to Zeality, then to the visitors of this site and to the sense of fairness and justice naturally ingrained into all social beings.

For the most part though, I want members to openly air out their grievances where the admins and all the visitors can see them. Nothing is worse than only hearing the praise people give you and none of their criticisms. I want them to understand that people aren't banned here for dissent, even if that means I have to use up all my free time outside of work addressing the same complaints over and over again.

She risked the entire Chrono Compendium and the personal well-being and financial weal of myself and Agent 12. She nearly made it so no one could enjoy the Compendium: not me, not you, not lurkers, not random visitors stopping by for a quick piece of information. And she's been banned. How can you people support such an incredible breach of ethics and justice by doubting the validity of a ban given for an action that endangered the entire site and threatened two people with extortionate fines?

I guess people want to forgive her because she is a very well-liked and was a very important member here. Also, she's very young and impressionable. I think that she really didn't think through what she was doing because she didn't know the harm in it. I guess she figured it out afterwards, but it was too late then. She is sorry about it, and even if you think what she did was inexcusable, I think it's more important that nothing became of it.

And no doubt, a lot of people have forgiven her, but that doesn't remove her from having to face the consequences of her actions. When it comes to the Compendium, being banned is not related to how popular or well-liked you are, but rather the level of your decorum and the nature of your crimes. The day that changes is the day I leave.

Quote
She risked the entire Chrono Compendium and the personal well-being and financial weal of myself and Agent 12. She nearly made it so no one could enjoy the Compendium: not me, not you, not lurkers, not random visitors stopping by for a quick piece of information.

Well, that's only if you think there was a good chance Square would sue you and take down this site over an alpha leak by someone that wasn't you guys.

Her betraying your trust was a legitimate reason to ban her (and the other leakers), but I'm still skeptical that the alpha leak put you or this site in any danger. It misrepresented your work (another good reason to ban the leakers), of course.

I still think the leakers deserved the banhammer, and the important thing is what you perceived the danger level to be, as the risk was yours and not mine.

I'm not on a first-name basis with our hosting providers, or even on a person-to-person basis with them. I've never physically seen the machine I administrate, and I've never even visited the city it's collocated in. If they got a nasty, corporate letter asking them to take down our server due to an intellectual property violation, would they really know any better? And how hard would that be for SE? It'd just be a 5-minute address lookup and a 30 minute typing job, if not that.

And no, you don't have to sue someone to send out a take-down request to their hosting provider. We've had hosting providers pull out servers from people hosting some of our files, because they were copyrighted MP3s. No warnings, just gone -- the entire server too.

Also, if it seems like I'm always playing out worst-case scenarios here, it's because that's how you judge situations when you have something to lose. Planning along the path of what's probable or most likely is what you do when what you have to gain outweighs what you have to lose, which is common enough, but in cases where the opposite is true that kind of decision making leads to your eventual failure in the game of survival. You have to also consider what's possible in that case and plan accordingly, which is why we do monthly backups now that we run a dedicated server. After all, it's more than possible that we'll get hacked (I've seen a few friends' servers get hacked before), but it's not very probable.

Basically, it's kind of like playing poker. You have to consider what kind of hands he could have before considering what the most likely hand he has is, and then account for what the two of you are willing to gain or lose. Then you have to consider just what kind of person the other player really is -- what's his nature, his character. Then you make your bets and play your cards.

It's not as simple as always playing the odds.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 05:22:19 am by Ramsus »

Mr Bekkler

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2009, 04:58:29 am »
I didn't expect anybody to be banned but I understand the reasons for almost all of them. Except Shadow. Apparently he just annoyed a lot of people and spewed spoilers? I just don't know the story there. But I'm sure there's a legit reason.

ZaichikArky

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2009, 05:26:42 am »
ShadowDarkman comes into #outlaws sometimes. He tells me he got banned for facepalming too much.

Kind of seems to me  he should have got a temp ban, but maybe everyone was too tired of the spam....:picardno

IAmSerge

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2009, 05:42:34 am »
he was a pretty big annoyance, imo...

Ramsus

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2009, 05:45:41 am »
ShadowDarkman comes into #outlaws sometimes. He tells me he got banned for facepalming too much.

Kind of seems to me  he should have got a temp ban, but maybe everyone was too tired of the spam....:picardno

Let me put it this way, he averaged 30-40 posts per day, even after he was put on a probationary status.  As a result, he became the center of too many discussions; let's not make him the center of this one too.

kid123

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2009, 05:56:09 am »
Even so, he actually manage to gain some friend like tea and Hypernerd. Well, I guess that is because both are good friend each other, and whoever tea makes friend with, Hypernerd  follow the same step, except Laith.

I also do not know the story, I guess it can be track down back at the frustration thread, someone mention a big battle of Shadow vs Compendium there  :?

Ramsus is right, let we bury this matter and be forgotten once for all.

EDIT::
I afraid of Language Barrier I got sometime whenever I communicate, is that really an annoyance and deserve ban? I always like to practice up my English to perfection, but it might take a long years.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 06:03:44 am by kid123 »