Author Topic: The Pendant and the Telepod  (Read 7288 times)

BROJ

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2008, 03:15:20 am »
Quote from: EDIT: BROJ
Yes, but the "robots" were created by terrestrial humans within the natural flow of time by using terrestrial materials within the natural flow of time.

Yeah, but the robots weren't created by the earth. They didn't evolve naturally, but scientifically. And anyways, they weren't created to destroy human life...I don't think you could call the Mother Brain's malfunction a natural evolution...>_>
My point is: humans, products of the planet, created robots, which in turn seem to emulate almost perfectly, in this game anyways, human behavior including, but not limited to: learning, fear of destruction, and the need to propagate. Even though they were created by humans in the first place (The most distinguishable unnatural characteristic of robots in this game.) they mostly create each other in 1999+AD(apocalyptic future), though not through evolution, without any interference, means they are technically natural sentient beings, at least during that stretch of time, anyways. In short: if the robots don't depend on humans to exist, then they are natural beings seeing as they were created on that planet.
But it always comes down to semantics as to what life really is, anyways. Good for discussion, though.
[...] but Lavos is an alien being that's working against the Entity.
Thats *kinda* putting lightly...

V_Translanka

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2008, 04:24:43 am »
I just mean I don't think you can include things that humans create as part of the planet's evolutionary cycle or w/e...I mean, such inventions can, as can be seen in our own world, be detrimental to the planet because they're foreign to nature. Even if they are made of from the "parts" of the planet...there's still going to be some form of unnatural byproduct being introduced because of them. Industry itself does that.

BROJ

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2008, 04:57:24 pm »
...there's still going to be some form of unnatural byproduct being introduced because of them. Industry itself does that.
I don't think its unnatural or foreign, just negatively impacting other organisms which inhabit the planet.

V_Translanka

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2008, 05:50:16 pm »
Well, yeah, but those organisms are, like, a part of the planet's natural ecosystem or however you want to say it...

BROJ

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2008, 06:03:19 pm »
Well, yeah, but those organisms are, like, a part of the planet's natural ecosystem or however you want to say it...
Being specific about certain ecosystems of the planet; then you would definitely be right, but considering the planet's ecosystem as a whole; you would have to first prove that human's, and derivatively robot's, drive to exploit without care is unnatural at all. And seeing as humans inhabit said collective ecosystem they are not foreign (even if you bring up the point that humans or robots were not there first to be in an ecosystem; consider that it is the natural tendency for a species to spread and exploit new areas as the population count of said species grows.)

Thought

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2008, 11:26:27 am »
you can call time the fourth dimension, or you can move time (since time is a whole other concept in itself) to dimension-0.  i prefer to view time as dimension-0, but it's a matter of preference.  when it comes down to it it's all non-euclidean space-time.

No you can't.

Now I know that some people (not all) do that, but that is nonsensical. 2 dimensional objects are made up of 1 dimensional object, 3 dimensional of 2, and so on. So logically, 1 dimensional objects (lines) would be made up on 0 dimensional object. So... A line is made up of time? Points are Time? That doesn't make sense. People that call time Dimension 0 already admit that they are separating spatial dimensions from the timeline, so what is up with the half-assed classification? ("Canada isn't part of the United States, so let’s call it state 0!")

Dimension-0 better fits as a geometric point, a location lacking depth, width, and length but still existing. When one doesn't consider time to be the 4th dimension (especially as it would be the only dimension to necessitate movement), it gets placed on a separate dimensional scale. Instead of time being the 4th dimension, we could say that there are 3 (or more) spatial dimensions and 1 (or more) temporal dimensions.

With Chrono Theory added in, Home and Another world would seemingly exist along the 4th spatial dimension (3 dimensional "obbjects" separated by a 4th dimensiona space), while Time and Time Error would exist as the 1st and 2nd temporal dimensions.

The DBT could exist entirely on the spatial dimensional scale and not the temporal dimensional scale; however that causes a problem for Time Bastard Theory (which doesn't mean either theory is inherently wrong, but that they are in conflict); if the DBT helps preserve matter (so that it is neither created nor destroyed due to Time Travel causing new time lines), it would seemingly have no appreciable length, width, depth, etc. The only thing that would exist there is information (as likewise, information cannot be destoryed; see the Information Paradox). This is curious as it would seemingly not exist on either dimensional scale then (though possibly still being a geometric point, yet if it is a geometric point containing only information, it would be quite similar to a black hole itself).

Yeah, but the robots weren't created by the earth. They didn't evolve naturally, but scientifically. And anyways, they weren't created to destroy human life...I don't think you could call the Mother Brain's malfunction a natural evolution...>_>

Well supposedly Humans, as they exist in the series, weren't created by the earth either. Side note, is it even legitimate to distinguish science from nature, as science is supposed to represent nature? Besides, Reptites weren't created to destroy human life either. If that counts as natural evolution, why not Mother Brain's genocidal tenancies? Survival of the Fittest, after all. Getting rid of the competition is fairly natural.

Yet if we consider humans to be a product of the Planet regardless of Lavos' influence, then Robots are in turn also a product of the planet via humans.

To extrapolate: Would you say that humans are enough "of the planet" to be considered natural and acceptable to the Entity? Well then, what of a clone (like Kid)? Created entirely through artificial means, such a thing would exist apart from nature? If a clone can be made to be "natural," why the distinction between organic and mechanic constructs?

Quote from: Thought
Radiation from *our* sun(which is extra-terrestrial, by the way) has actually accelerated the natural process of evolution by inadvertently damaging our DNA; so who's to say that Lavos's radiation is pushing evolution in the wrong way...
Actually, I didn't say that. That was BROJ.

V_Translanka

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2008, 02:17:22 pm »
Quote from: Thought
This is curious as it (the DBT) would seemingly not exist on either dimensional scale then (though possibly still being a geometric point, yet if it is a geometric point containing only information, it would be quite similar to a black hole itself).

That's interesting...a kind of black hole that sucks in discarded temporal matter...

Quote from: Thought
Well supposedly Humans, as they exist in the series, weren't created by the earth either.

I think that's kind of debatable...I mean, Humans were "evolved" through external influences, sure...But it didn't seem to change much of what they were fundamentally.

Quote from: Thought
Side note, is it even legitimate to distinguish science from nature, as science is supposed to represent nature?

Science is supposed to represent nature??

Quote from: Thought
Besides, Reptites weren't created to destroy human life either. If that counts as natural evolution, why not Mother Brain's genocidal tenancies? Survival of the Fittest, after all. Getting rid of the competition is fairly natural.

Getting rid of the competition is one thing...maniacal genocide for no reason is quite another.

I think that it has to be a DIRECT product of the planet though. Or else, what? Are atomic bombs products of the planet?

About the clone...I think it depends on how the clone is conceived...you can still get a clone through largely natural means (insemination anyways). And besides, since it's a clone, it's just an exact duplicate genetically of what nature produced.

Also...whoops...sorry...I think I was doing so much mass quoting that I forgot who said it!

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2008, 03:00:08 pm »
thought, you're basing that off of chrono theory...  and you have valid points, but i'm referring to this on universal time-theorem terms.

Thought

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2008, 03:15:57 pm »
Science is supposed to represent nature??

Presumably. What else is physics, genetics, biology, chemistry, etc studying and explaining other than what occurs in nature?

I think that it has to be a DIRECT product of the planet though. Or else, what? Are atomic bombs products of the planet?

Yes. Perhaps not a direct product, but certainly indirectly (as the material is made from the planet by beings that the planet produced). We humans like to differentiate ourselves from the rest of nature, and certainly we are more complex, but is there a significant difference between a termite mound and a city? An Atomic Bomb and the sun? A bird and a plane? A human and a robot?

V_Translanka

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2008, 03:33:58 pm »
Ah, then I think I see "science" as being seperate from Machines in that sense.

About the other stuff...I just don't think Machines are part of Nature, really...But I think that the point you bring up makes me think of Masa, Mune & Doreen, who could be that intermediate life form between man-made & nature-made...though that depends on whether or not the temperance that went into forging the Dreamstone was what gave them life or if they were always there within the Dreamstone (or, in fact, if they were ever naturally part of the Dreamstone or their respective items at all).

Also, an atomic bomb may simulate something natural, but it certainly isn't something natural to the planet. A sun does not belong on the surface of a planet for example.

Thought

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2008, 04:50:16 pm »
To address some logistic issues, I was going to update my original post (to make things easier on new comers and to summarize our work so far) to add a note about our current consensus (that it was the Pendant specifically that caused dropped the pendant in the Telepod incident) and to note the corollary concept that Doreen may be the consciousness behind the pendant. Additionally I was going to mention that there is still some disagreement as to the pendant's/Doreen's connection to the entity (which seems to be what most of the current discussion is about).

Does that sound like an accurate sum-up of everything so far or am I forgetting something?

V_Translanka

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2008, 07:37:38 pm »
Sounds good to me.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2008, 04:26:53 pm »
Accurate.  True.

Thought

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2008, 06:25:08 pm »
Right, well done and done.

So then, the debate currently seems to be focusing on if the Entity is an active or passive agent in the games. As an aside to this we have if Robotic life counts as life for the Entity. Though the DBT as a sort of super-dimensional equivalent of a Black Hole seems like an interesting avenue of discussion as well.

Does anyone besides V_Translanka and myself want to weigh in on the Entity as Agent/Bystander matter?

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2008, 06:27:09 pm »
thought, i do.  should we start a new thread concerning the entity (such as an active agent or a bystander).  or is there already one?