Author Topic: Does the DBT exist as a 0th dimension?  (Read 4382 times)

Zaulche

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Re: Does the DBT exist as a 0th dimension?
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2008, 12:41:52 am »
Interesting. So if the varying branches from all of our decisions create parallels with the unchosen path being discarded in the DBT, does that mean that everyone relates to the same DBT, or is the DBT relative to the individual observing their reality?

It would seem to me to be relative. In Chrono Cross there are two dimensions branching at one point in Serge's life. However, these are just two branches focused on because they were important to the particular timeline. In reality there are an infinite number of branches. Just like there were instances of the same person in each timeline, there would be an infinite number of instances of people in the universe across these dimensions.

Also, what makes someone's consciousness stay with a particular instance over another (why do I exist with my given life path instead of another)?

More questions, but hopefully in understanding this I can get a better idea of just what the DBT is and is not.

BROJ

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Re: Does the DBT exist as a 0th dimension?
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2008, 01:09:54 am »
I sorta picture the DBT as a 0-dimensional location and a dissociation of the fabrical form of reality(i.e. the given dimensional perspective). To put this in application, when entity A, 'bound' to the fabric of time, becomes dislodged by another(entity B) taking the exact location of entity A, the entity becomes a floating point above the fabric, such that it's existence becomes ethereal or 'unbound' from the current dimensional perspective. Taking this into consideration(Thought, if you don't mind I'm going to adapt your theory to be compatible with mine.) when a gate is 'opened', one could envision the 'fabric' of reality 'folding' to join two non-contiguous points forming a connection(i.e. a gate). To 'thicken' the plot, so to speak: what happens when a pre-existing point lies between two ends of a gate and something(say a person, for instance) passes through? The two entities would, theoretically, 'share' the same imaginary coordinate and, thus, become one merged being. Perhaps this is what happened with the Time Devourer merger.

FaustWolf

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Re: Does the DBT exist as a 0th dimension?
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2008, 07:58:18 pm »
Sorry to jump in here w/o reading very much of the thread, but I read talk of the Tesseract, and wanted to make sure everyone knows that this is apparently the name of the DBT in the Japanese script:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/196917/8578

EDIT: Interesting, the Bend of Time was originally "Ultima Thule." I don't have a clue what that means, but it sounds particularly kickass.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 08:00:14 pm by FaustWolf »

MagilsugaM

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Re: Does the DBT exist as a 0th dimension?
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2008, 02:21:32 am »
Sorry to jump in here w/o reading very much of the thread, but I read talk of the Tesseract, and wanted to make sure everyone knows that this is apparently the name of the DBT in the Japanese script:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/196917/8578

EDIT: Interesting, the Bend of Time was originally "Ultima Thule." I don't have a clue what that means, but it sounds particularly kickass.
I found something about it is like the "Ultimate thule" means beyond the "borders of the unknow world"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule

Vehek

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Re: Does the DBT exist as a 0th dimension?
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2008, 02:29:04 am »
According to the "Chrono Cross J-E Dictionary", the Bend of Time is "次元の狭間" in the Japanese version.
Google translate translated it as "- Dimensional vulnerabilities"
Quote from: From WWWJDIC
    *  次元 【じげん】 (n) (1) dimension; (2) perspective; point of reference; level (of something); (P); EP
    * 狭間 【はざま】 (n) (1) interval; (2) valley; gorge; ravine; (3) loophole; eyelet; ED

FaustWolf

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Re: Does the DBT exist as a 0th dimension?
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2008, 12:00:29 pm »
Interesting, I wonder how Elranzer came up with Ultima Thule? It sorta fits with the definition as presented by MagilsugaM, being an island that is inaccessible during a non-New Game+ playthrough, and thus could be interpreted as "beyond the known world." To be perfectly accurate, Elranzer listed it as Ultima Thule of Time.

If the Bend of Time is a place of "Dimensional Vulnerabilities," its nature may be related to Angelus Errare (entrance point to the DBT?), the entrance/exit point to/from Sprigg's whacked-out dimensional home, and the Dead Sea. Come to think of it, could all these places be labeled an Angelus Errare? El Nido seems to be littered with dimensional disturbances.

Vehek

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Re: Does the DBT exist as a 0th dimension?
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2008, 12:26:17 pm »
I don't know if "dimensional vulnerabilities" is accurate. Another translation site gave "interval of dimension". If it matters, I searched for the Japanese term and one of the things it was used to refer to something in FFV; I think the official translation's term is "Cleft of Dimension".
« Last Edit: June 08, 2008, 01:02:49 pm by Vehek »

FaustWolf

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Re: Does the DBT exist as a 0th dimension?
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2008, 01:18:10 pm »
"Cleft of Dimension" makes perfect sense, because that's the name of the Bend of Time theme on the OST, or at least how it's been translated into English.

Thought

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Re: Does the DBT exist as a 0th dimension?
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2008, 10:55:22 am »
In Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy he talks about the 'space' between worlds (dimensions) and the spectre-like beings that exist there.  I sort of see the DBT in a similar light.  Reading my post won't make sense, though.  You have to have read the books to understand what I'm talking about.

Actually, I was thinking of the same thing (Pullman's "windows").

For those who haven't read the books, essentiall a "window" is a lot like the dimensional distortion in CC. It connects one world with "another" world in which there are fundamental differences. Perhaps there is just a social difference, perhaps evolution happened slightly differently, perhaps the laws of physics are slightly different (allowing one's "Spirit" to manifest itself in the real world), etc.

A window technically is only a two dimensional object; it has length and width but no depth. Yet, at the same time, the two worlds don't perfectly touch; there is a definable spot where one ends and the other begins. In that spot, the space between existances, there is nothing. It doesn't technically exist, yet it is a "something" that separates the worlds.

Thus to tie this back to Chrono, the passage between a gate's two ends doesn't really exist in any manner that is easily understandable. It is the void between this world and the next, where things can pass through but don't really exist.

Quote from: The Doctor, on the "Void"
The space between dimensions. There's all sorts of realities around us, different dimensions, billions of parallel universes all stacked up against each other. The Void is the space in between, containing absolutely nothing. Can you imagine that, nothing? No light, no dark, no up, no down, no life.... no time.... without end. My people called it "the Void", the Eternals call it "the Howling", but some people call it Hell.

Sorry to jump in here w/o reading very much of the thread, but I read talk of the Tesseract, and wanted to make sure everyone knows that this is apparently the name of the DBT in the Japanese script:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/196917/8578

Brilliant Faust! This helps underline the importance and ultimate need for a CC retranslation.

If the Japanese version calls it a Tesseract, then that is very strong evidence indeed that it is a tesseract. But, unfortunately, does anyone know how accurate that translation is? What I mean is, is the Japanese word just one that could be translated as "Tesseract" or is the meaning much more fixed? As Vehek pointed out, that FAQ's interpretation of the Japanese meaning of Bend of Time being "the Ultimate Thule of Time" isn't a perfect translation. Thus, is Tesseract a good or debateable translation as well?

That FAQ is terribly interesting(particularly in the alternate translation of the Dragon God Time Devourer being "Lunar Dragon" or the Astral Amulet being a "Medicine Bag"), but I am unclear on how good and firm all its translations are. (And some of the NA translations are better than the originals; Doll Clay is pretty mundane, but Terrator is fun).

Interesting, I wonder how Elranzer came up with Ultima Thule? It sorta fits with the definition as presented by MagilsugaM, being an island that is inaccessible during a non-New Game+ playthrough, and thus could be interpreted as "beyond the known world." To be perfectly accurate, Elranzer listed it as Ultima Thule of Time.

If the Bend of Time is a place of "Dimensional Vulnerabilities," its nature may be related to Angelus Errare (entrance point to the DBT?), the entrance/exit point to/from Sprigg's whacked-out dimensional home, and the Dead Sea. Come to think of it, could all these places be labeled an Angelus Errare? El Nido seems to be littered with dimensional disturbances.

But one can access the Bend of Time in a non-New Game+ playthrough. Though it is rather random place that doesn't fit in well with the rest of the game, making it fit rather nicely still with being "beyond the known world."

Also, the Angelus Errare may or may not lead to the DBT. It depends on if all of Opassa Beach is the AE or just the distortion between the worlds. If the latter, then the DBT is accessed from a different portal. But if all dimensional distortions (including the one in the Hydra Marshes) can be termed Angelus Errare, then that would make sense. Unfortunately the game isn't terribly specific on this.

Vehek

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Re: Does the DBT exist as a 0th dimension?
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2008, 05:16:36 pm »
I couldn't find direct equivalents to Marle's and Lucca's lines about "darkness" in a Japanese site with dialog from Chrono Cross.

The dialog option to go to the "Darkness of Time" is "時の闇の彼方へ!"
Quote from: WWWJDIC "translation" of line
  • 時 【とき】 (n-adv,n) (1) time; hour; (2) occasion; moment; (P); EP
  • 闇 【やみ】 (n,adj-no) darkness; the dark; black-marketeering; dark; shady; illegal; (P); EP
  • 彼方 【あちら】 (n) (1) (uk) that way; over there; yonder; (2) that one; that; (3) (pol) that person; (4) foreign country (esp. a Western nation); (P); EP
Unless it picked completely wrong words, I don't think this even comes close to "Tesseract".

FaustWolf

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Re: Does the DBT exist as a 0th dimension?
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2008, 06:20:14 pm »
Perhaps we should try getting in touch with Elranzer and see how he came up with "Tesseract," seeing as it's so important to the theorization here.

If it helps any, the BGM music for the DBT is translated as "Into a Time of Darkness" on the Playstation Sound Format version of the OST I've got. However, when I compare the kanji on the OST liner notes to what Vehek posted, the symbols are not the same as the ones used in-game.

Seeing as "Ultima Thule" and "Tesseract" are *so* far away from what Vehek is getting for these places, I'm wondering if it was the Ultimania Guide or an interview with Kato or something that Elranzer was looking at.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Does the DBT exist as a 0th dimension?
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2008, 07:27:04 pm »
This question I feel is related to the argument of the DBT: what is the dimensional void where Sprigg lives?  Are they connected at all?  Through quantum mechanics?  Through other means?  Or not at all?

MagilsugaM

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Re: Does the DBT exist as a 0th dimension?
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2008, 01:31:10 am »
Tesseract it could be right one. I have a theory the 0th dimension is the inside one of the tesseract consuming pace and time of the other 2 dimensions.
Like this image shows. It could be also two tesseract consuming.
One the Home world and the other consuming the Another world.

[attachment deleted by admin]

Zaulche

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Re: Does the DBT exist as a 0th dimension?
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2008, 02:39:00 am »
So you can have an unlimited number of tesseracts linked together?

MagilsugaM

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Re: Does the DBT exist as a 0th dimension?
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2008, 07:58:33 pm »
Yes that one is a 5th dimentional cube.