Fuck Sexism

[Truthordeal]

I support the law because the child was murdered, not aborted. Abortion is legal, murder is not.

But to go deeper into it, I'd have to say that the amount of cowardice and cruelty it takes for a man to not only snuff out the life of a grown adult, but of a child as well, is deserving of a far greater punishment. There's a more eugenic quality to it, that we get rid of the most cowardly of the murders.

I suppose its not right to say that the murder of a pregnant woman is worth more punishment than the murder of a male or unpregnant woman, but the fact of the matter is, under these circumstances, two lives were destroyed rather than the one. The only regret I have is that we can only hang the bastard once.

[ZeaLitY]

I think that even with its exception for abortion, it's still a bad legal precedent for people who would use it to argue personhood in order to limit abortion rights.

Still, pragmatically and ignoring those opportunists, it's a good way to codify and organize the crimes and damages sustained in expectation of childbirth. For example, a woman, her husband, their parents, etc. might all be emotionally invested in the birth of their child, which when killed, emotionally injures all of them. And that can be neatly punishable through a punitive legal fiction like fetal personhood.

[Sajainta]

My stance on the Unborn Victims of Violence act (or at the very least, the basic idea behind it) is complicated, mainly for personal reasons.  I'm pro-choice.  Very firmly pro-choice.

I also lost a pregnancy when I was very young.  I wanted to keep the child, but the circumstances behind the termination of the pregnancy were at the hands of someone else, and it was deliberate.  I had just turned 15.  And before anyone assumes I was some kid who didn't use protection and then got knocked up, I didn't choose to have the "sex" and I definitely did not want to become pregnant.  The situation was non-consensual, and no one would ever want to become pregnant through rape.

Regardless, I did want the child and I chose to keep them.  But I didn't get to choose, the "father" chose for me.  I don't know if I can classify what he did as "murder" or not.  It's something I've wrestled with a lot.  It's a very difficult issue.

[ZombieBucky]

this is confusing to me. abortion okay butmurder of the child within the uterus not...? um.
isnt abortion technically murder?
or is it not?
then what does it mean when the child is killed within the womb?
or is it the same thing with a different name?

um.
killing a lady to kill the child aint cool.
killing the child without the mothers consent aint cool.
i dont know what else to say. this confuses me to no end. does this mean that up is down and two plus two is fish as well? thats what im getting from this lol

[FaustWolf]

Jesus Christ, Sajainta. I'm really sorry to hear about that experience from every angle -- it seems the more women we get in here, the more stories we get about various degrees of abuse rooted in sexism. This isn't merely a coincidence, but probably hints that the degree of it in our society is every bit as bad as several here have suggested. I won't inquire any more than you're comfortable saying about your personal experience, although it does open up questions of how much right the father of a fetus has over its development vs. the mother. If seems to me that the mother should have greater right; although the child's DNA is merely half hers (if we can even quantify that aspect), the use of her body for the fetus' development has to count for something in addition to that.


Zombie, as someone who's previously crossed the Pro-Life/Pro-Choice divide, I think I understand your feelings of confusion around the matter. This is a complicated and messed up subject no matter which way you slice it; and the stakes are huge. If our society is getting it wrong, then it's getting it wrong hugely -- either depriving people of life unjustly or depriving women control over their own personhood unjustly.

What pushed me over the divide, other than a general shift from conservatism to liberalism, was the internal inconsistency of the popular "moderate" approach I had previously espoused -- Pro-Life except in cases of rape, incest, and life of the mother. That amounts to saying that the fetus has rights under some cases, but loses those rights under others. The "moderate" approach inherently admits that the fetus' right to further development has strings attached, and that the mother's right to her own person is a consideration. Once you're a moderate on the abortion issue, becoming Pro-Choice all the way isn't too much of a stretch at all.

Under the logic I offered earlier about the fetus' lack of personhood, the Unborn Victims act should be modified: the death of the fetus should be treated as an additional injury to the mother, as if she'd had her arm forcefully amputated in a cruel act. However, I've never been sure I was using the right logic and moral paradigms on abortion, especially after seeing how Prof. Jarvis-Thomson is able to reconcile the fetus' right to life and its personhood with a Pro-Choice stance. In the end, I think we can get this question objectively right through the creation of Birth Pods -- only the Artificial Womb can preserve the fetus' life without denying the mother-to-be the right to her life, and control over her life.

[Truthordeal]

Ah, so this is the fabled birth pod of which you seem so fond.

[FaustWolf]

I've never really been a fan of sticking to natural ways of doing things. We live a superior moral lifestyle today than our ancestors did two hundred years ago precisely because we can do things that nature did not intend. Another way of looking at it is that such technologies are an integral part of our evolutionary progress.

I don't mean to devalue motherhood or anything; any woman who wants to experience gestation and birth is entitled to it. However, the "birth pod" as I like to call it offers an intriguing common ground between the interests of Pro-Lifers and Pro-Choicers, at the cost of raising its own questions.

[Uboa]

Sajainta   That's terrible.  So sorry to hear.  Indeed it seems these stores are becoming more commonplace here, and with every one the real problems women face in this country, and everywhere, become more apparent.  But the solutions seem more convoluted, you know?  At least to me they do...

I understand the good intention behind the birth pod concept, but at the same time (I mentioned this at games night) it almost seems like a red herring in the face of the obstacles actually facing women today.  However, that's mostly because at this point large-scale birth pod implementation is too far-fetched, but it likely will be that way for a long time.

From what I've been hearing lately, it seems that one of the best solutions for the time being would be to allot resources to building and maintaining more women's shelter's and career guidance centers.  One prospective situation that has always scared the hell out of me is one where I would be dependent on (and possibly trapped by) a violent man, or violent men.  That seems like it would be one of the worst situation for a woman to be in in this country to be in, and from firsthand experience witnessing bizarre situations, and from reading about various cases, it has to be one of the most daunting situations to escape from.  A shelter in every city would be of great relief to so many women.  Another prospective situation that scares me now is being in S's position, and if I was in S's position I would like nothing more than to have access to a career guidance center, where I could find an escape from the torments of being in a consistently unjust workplace.

[Sajainta]

FaustWolf--it is terrible, but not surprising, that many other women on here have gone through horrid things.  And the fact that this isn't surprising is truly abhorrent.  I absolutely agree with you--a great deal of people believe we've overcome (or are very close to abolishing) such things as sexism or racism, etc.--but fuck.that.  Anyone who knows how to read can simply look at the statistics to realize how prevalent and widespread these "things that have gone away" remain.  It's infuriating.

You do bring up an interesting point about how much of a say the father should have vs. the mother.  That is something I would have to think about, although your assertion about the mother's body is quite valid.

Also, I completely agree with you on the "moderate" stance.  I know quite a few people who say that abortion is understandable and acceptable only in the circumstances you mentioned.  Which I think is ridiculous, for the reasons you mentioned.

[Sajainta]

Uboa--first of all, thank you for your kindness.

I agree with you, I wouldn't know how to begin a solution.  I know many disagree with me, but I'm a firm believer that humans are inherently selfish and cruel.  Not from a religious standpoint (I'm an atheist), but from what I've gathered through growing up in an impoverished, corrupt nation, being a history buff, and through personal experiences and the experiences of others.  I'm not saying that people can't change, or that there are no kind, wonderful, or gentle people in the world--because I only need to look at my family and friends to see this.  Because of them, and because of others who are genuinely decent human beings, I have a shred of hope that things may become better.  But I'm the wrong person to ask, really.  Eternal pessimist and cynic here.   

[FaustWolf]

The fear of being locked in a relationship that exhibits domestic abuse suggests to me that sexism needs to be tackled on two fronts equally -- empowering women psychologically, socially and economically; and reforming men, or rather our society's perception of what masculinity should entail.

My current theory regarding the male side of sexism is that men often lack an ability to empathize with women. There's a sense of "The Other" that gets in the way thanks to sheer biology. When a man talks about being Pro-Life or Pro-Choice he is forced to think about and justify his position in abstract terms for lack of a womb; pregnancy has a 0% chance of happening to him, so he cannot possibly fathom the hopes, dreams, and fears every woman has with regard to the phenomenon of reproduction. Only women can truly argue from the gut on this matter. Similar observations could be made about other aspects of sexual relations between the sexes.

The problem of "The Other" also extends to everyday social interaction. If a man hits on a waitress, or worse yet, suddenly wraps his arm around her waist from out of the blue, he may be doing so with the notion that he's actually paying her a huge compliment. Since patriarchal society teaches men to be all sex, all the time, we would feel psychologically invigorated if a complete stranger of the opposite sex invaded our personal space like that. And that's if he bothers to even rationalize his action; although it isn't codified anywhere I can point to, there's also the strong cultural impression that men are simply entitled to women's bodies, period. It's the sum total of every book and movie featuring a male protagonist who has what amounts to a one night stand, and every male politician caught talking about the female lobbyist he "spanked" the previous night. The seduction community and the advice typically given on AskMen.com embody this message.

So, that's my brief treatise on the problem of "The Other" that's become a central theme in my own feminist musings. The basic gist is that feminism's goals can be accomplished best if men are just as wrapped up in women's studies as women are; how else are we supposed to know "what it's like for a girl," to borrow a phrase from Madonna? A guy like Chris Brown, who flies off the handle in a rage and just beats the everliving snot out of his significant other, does so because in that moment, he has forgotten that she is human like himself. I would be interested to know what critiques and additional observations other guys have on this topic, and its repercussions for the future course of feminism.

[ZaichikArky]

Sorry that happened to you, Sajainta. It sounds like a pretty terrible experience to go through... especially for a 15 year old. Also, the chance of getting pregnant from an incident like that is pretty rare, so it's like it went from bad, to worse, to even worse because the molester got the choice of what to do with the  unborn child >_>;.  I'm a lot older than 15, but even today, I don't know what I'd do if I got pregnant because I would want to keep the baby,  but my parents would pressure me hard to abort it, even though it wouldn't be something I wanted. After all, my mom got 2 of them because my dad pressured her into it.

[Lord J Esq]

I want to point something out that I think deserves further thought. Were it not for the fact that some of us have gone out of our way to create an anti-sexist, pro-sexual-equality atmosphere here at the Compendium--often stepping on some conservative (and neutral) feet in the process--this place would never have become an outlet for the stories that people have been sharing lately.

Those of you whose feet we have stepped on, either because you aren't interested in the cause of sexual equality or because you think the global crime of sexism isn't as bad as we have made it out to be, should give some thought to these developments. Where else in your lives has your indifference or hostility toward this subject contributed to the prevention of other, similar outlets taking form? What personal stories are your friends and acquaintances not telling because you have not nurtured a place for them to be told?

[Lord J Esq]

People should read this conservative editorial, published in the conservative Weekly Standard, as an insight to the oft-obscured fact that, for religious conservatives, most of the impetus behind their "culture war" issues ultimately boils down, directly, to sexism: specifically, the control of females.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/533narty.asp?pg=1

[Sajainta]

That's a sad situation, ZaichikArky.  Your father making those decisions for your mother was wrong, and your parents making that decision for you if you became pregnant would be wrong also.  Even them pressuring you would be wrong.  It's your body, not theirs.  I don't know how much they could do though, other than pressure you, since you said you were much older than 15 (I assume you're a legal adult).

It was really terrible.  I won't say it wasn't.  It wasn't an isolated event.  I became pregnant probably a month or two after the abuse started.  You're right, pregnancies resulting from assaults are rare, but probably not as rare as most people would think.

And Lord J Esq--the pro-equality atmosphere you and other Compendium members have created here has not gone unnoticed or unappreciated.  I haven't been on this site for very long, but that is something I have picked up on, as I'm sure many others have as well.  Thank you, truly.