The $%*! frustration thread

[Katie Skyye]

There is a saying that foreigners should wait until they're elderly to begin studying Japanese, as that way they'll waste less of their lives studying Japanese. It's a gigantic fucking time-suck to learn a language from necessity.

That is an awesome saying.
But also, I won't be learning it from necessity...I want to learn it and it just so happens to be potentially useful. (I know you weren't talking specifically to me, but whatever.)

As for frustration: FROST EVERYWHERE THIS MORNING. I have to walk up a hill to my bus stop and almost slipped and fell several times. And I forgot to grab gloves so my hands hurt like crazy and then went numb. ;w; It's a minor frustration, but I have to do this every morning at 7, so it's a good thing school is almost over because that would get really old, really fast...

[Radical_Dreamer]

Need more time to practice with it before we get into a largely Japanese-dominated industry...!

Which industry?

[Syna]

As someone who's been trying to teach herself Spanish for years, both in college and on my own, it is not easy. It is, in fact, not even the easiest language I've ever tried to tackle. A few years ago, I tried to learn Arabic, which was FAR easier to understand and construct correct sentences out of (now the writing system, that was a NIGHTMARE. I could not train my brain to read in the correct direction). And I like Spanish, too! It just gets the best of me, sometimes. I can now hold passable conversations, but I have to ask everyone to slow down constantly (and I always hope no one starts speaking in subjuntive tenses, or I get really confused... but I'm working on it).

It ultimately depends on your temperament, of course. One of my roommates can't do Romance languages for the life of him -- he's actually had more success with ridiculously difficult Japanese. But the evidence that most English-speakers find Spanish easiest is pretty compelling. However, Spanish was actually my first language-- even if I've forgotten a great deal-- so I can't talk for myself, I suppose. (I think the subjunctive tense is a bitch, though, and if it helps any I can't understand it well when my relatives talk quickly, either.)

Zeality, you're correct that it is a ginormous time sink, but to me it becomes worthwhile when you consider that you are, in a very literal and direct sense, learning a different way of thinking, and now have an entire culture's worth of thought at your disposal. And language-learning is like anything else; humans are totally capable of managing it quickly and adeptly. Entire human cultures have mastered incredibly difficult skill-sets if the right conditions are present. It's just that America makes acquiring those language-learning abilities really really difficult. The geography issue would be enough but compound that with exceptionalism... I have a much harder a time with language acquisition than my Mexican cousins do, and as I said, English isn't even my first language!

The real culprit here is an isolationist culture that doesn't impart the proper language-speaking skills early enough. This is one of the reasons why I am wholeheartedly pro- Spanish becoming America's second official language, in time. I think everyone will benefit from a situation similar to Canada's relationship with French.

[Thought]

... worthwhile when you consider that you are, in a very literal and direct sense, learning a different way of thinking...

You saved me the time of saying much the same thing! Thank you very much.

I'd merely add that it isn't just thinking but also experiencing and remembering that changes. One of the reasons why most people can't remember much from early childhood is because they don't have the language to remember (there are, of course, other reasons as well). Our experiences are very much tied to the language we speak, to the point that we remember past events only in the words that we knew at the time (if we remember things and that memory uses words that we didn't learn until later, that is evidence that we're modifying our memory).

In short, the same event will be remembered differently depending on the language one knows.

[tushantin]

... worthwhile when you consider that you are, in a very literal and direct sense, learning a different way of thinking...

I'd merely add that it isn't just thinking but also experiencing and remembering that changes.

Indeed, the modification of memory is a direct factor when it comes to languages, and that's a highly neurological condition. What's interesting is that neuron paths are forged and developed overtime based on our grasp of "tools".

Here's an analogy: a blacksmith himself is capable of immense strength and enduring heat based on the tools he uses, but he can never be at antiquity messenger as he hasn't the stamina of an athlete. A knight, on the other hand, has the skill of survival and swordsmanship, but he grasping the science of forging is difficult. Similar cases can be seen in the vastness of occupation fields, be it art, film-making, accounting, physics, traditional labor, architecture, and while the areas overlap the "specialization" is grafted on temperament.

Language is also a similar skill: depending on how you use a skill your neuron paths forge a similar, efficient way of thinking and evaluating reality itself. Our perception of linearity usually starts from left and extends to right, while those learning Urdu would have the other way around, and the Chinese would have from top to bottom. This linearity affects everything. Languages also alter the structure of thought itself, and if a person isn't bilingual (or is bound by unnecessarily complex language) then they'd have immense difficulty in grasping a different structure of language and thought.

One example is the video Syna showed earlier, and I mentioned how my perception of colors is so different. It's too complex to explain, but I'll leave this here as a mnemonic reference.

One of the reasons behind this is because social communication is always placed in priority, and hence the structure of the mind binds language to perception itself for quicker dispensing of thought; unless you're dyslexic, human beings use this method involuntarily to "Categorize" concepts and place tags to memory links in order to aid their understanding, memory, perception and communication -- this eventually aids in "comparison" of vision for gradual development.

Neurological structure can change, of course, but if the temperament isn't developed earlier on it becomes difficult (hence the saying "Old dog can't learn newer tricks"). This reminds me of study in recent Psychology reports that forgetfulness helps aid in neuro-development and creativity. This also reminds me Sherlock Holmes' belief that the mind is like a "limited closet" where one only needs to put things of use, lest they be lost in chaos at the time of need.

[Katie Skyye]

Need more time to practice with it before we get into a largely Japanese-dominated industry...!

Which industry?

The video game industry. Red wants to be a designer and I want to be an artist.

[ZeaLitY]

Zeality, you're correct that it is a ginormous time sink, but to me it becomes worthwhile when you consider that you are, in a very literal and direct sense, learning a different way of thinking, and now have an entire culture's worth of thought at your disposal. And language-learning is like anything else; humans are totally capable of managing it quickly and adeptly. Entire human cultures have mastered incredibly difficult skill-sets if the right conditions are present. It's just that America makes acquiring those language-learning abilities really really difficult. The geography issue would be enough but compound that with exceptionalism... I have a much harder a time with language acquisition than my Mexican cousins do, and as I said, English isn't even my first language!

Yeah, I take solace that the health of my brain will be greatly benefited by having another language to think in. Honestly, if I had my choice of languages to learn, I'd continue Czech and and start Latin. Those would be labors of pleasure for me. French holds some appeal as well, difficult as it'll be.

[Katie Skyye]

Yeah, I take solace that the health of my brain will be greatly benefited by having another language to think in. Honestly, if I had my choice of languages to learn, I'd continue Czech and and start Latin. Those would be labors of pleasure for me. French holds some appeal as well, difficult as it'll be.

I swear, sometimes I think you're less in the Springtime of Youth and more in the Summer of Fury or something...
Anyway, do you NOT have your choice of languages? Did Czech cease to exist before you could fully learn it? Because if not, there are lots of internet resources and books on the subject so it probably wouldn't even be that hard to pick it up again. If you want to do something, why not do it? Unless, of course, you don't have time because you're busy with all the other things you want to do and are already doing. 0w0

[Syna]

Thought, that memory stuff is dead fascinating. Do you have references for that on hand, out of curiosity? I'll just look it up myself if no.

[Thought]

Alas, no. Several years ago I happened to be working with a speech pathologist. At a conference she was presenting her research and that bit on memory was referenced, but I was unable to take note of the articles specific name or journal. I should have done my due diligence and looked up the article before posting about that. I'll continue to see if I can find it in pubmed.

***

My own frustration is with the increasing prevalence of "non-winter" decoration lights. Halloween lights aren't particularly new, but this year I saw Thanksgiving Lights. I love looking at houses decorated in festive lights, but if houses are decorated with lights for Thanksgiving or Halloween, then the specialness of the event decreases. I like eggnog, but it wouldn't be a special beverage if I had it regularly in March, July, or September. Likewise with lights.

Also, apparently I'm in the land that Eggnog forgot (not soynog, though).

[Lord J Esq]

If you'd stayed in the Pacific Northwest you could be imbibing Darigold Eggnog at this very moment!

[Radical_Dreamer]

Need more time to practice with it before we get into a largely Japanese-dominated industry...!

Which industry?

The video game industry. Red wants to be a designer and I want to be an artist.

If you want to learn Japanese, by all means do so. Speaking as a game designer though, the only time that the Japanese language has had any practical value to me was while I was a tourist in Japan, and I've worked for a Japanese game company.

In keeping with the thread, and the recent language theme, my frustration is the lack of a clean non-exclusive self reference in English. When speaking about games I've worked on, I may casually say I made the game, although in actuality every game is a team effort. I don't want to diminish the efforts of my team mates, but I also think "I worked on..." or "I was part of the team that made..." are more awkward phrasings than "I made..." which sadly has the implication that I alone made the game. I want something as concise as "I made..." that's as inclusive as "I was part of the team that made..."

[tushantin]

Thought, that memory stuff is dead fascinating. Do you have references for that on hand, out of curiosity? I'll just look it up myself if no.

I'll continue to see if I can find it in pubmed.

Found something (isn't anyone interested in neurology these days?)
http://www.aan.com/press/index.cfm?fuseaction=release.view&release=905
http://www.economist.com/node/21008421
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100712115058.htm
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=126301
http://www.timothyjpmason.com/WebPages/LangTeach/Licence/CM/OldLectures/L3_ExtremeCircs.htm
http://www.duke.edu/~pk10/language/psych.htm
http://learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/do-you-speak-a-second-or-third-language/

There's a whole lot more in my library, but I'd like to end it with this:

Up equals good, happy, optimistic; down the opposite. Right is honest and trustworthy. Left, not so much. That’s what language and culture tell us. “We use mental metaphors to structure our thinking about abstract things,” says psychologist Daniel Casasanto, “One of those metaphors is space.”
But we don’t all think right is right, Casasanto has found. Rather, “people associate goodness with the side they can act more fluently on.” Right-handed people prefer the product, job applicant, or extraterrestrial positioned to their right. Lefties march to a left-handed drummer. And those linguistic tropes? They probably “enshrine the preferences of the right-handed majority.”

Casasanto, of The New School for Social Research, and Evangelia G. Chrysikou, of the University of Pennsylvania, wanted to find the causes of these correlations. Does motor experience “give rise to these preferences, or are they hardwired in the brain?” If the former, “how flexible are these preferences? How much motor experience does it take” to instill them?
What does it all mean? “People generally believe that their judgments are rational and their concepts are stable,” says Casasanto. “But if a few minutes of gentle training can flip our judgments about what’s good or bad, then perhaps the mind is more malleable than people think.”

[ZeaLitY]

Anyway, do you NOT have your choice of languages? Did Czech cease to exist before you could fully learn it? Because if not, there are lots of internet resources and books on the subject so it probably wouldn't even be that hard to pick it up again. If you want to do something, why not do it? Unless, of course, you don't have time because you're busy with all the other things you want to do and are already doing. 0w0

I have a contingency plan to live in Europe, and given that it would require a job and that a great number of Europeans are multilingual, I have to have an edge. German and French are the reigning languages (under English, of course), and so it would behoove me to learn them to keep my options open.

The reason for the plan... I don't have an optimistic outlook on this world. Overpopulation and resource starvation are revealing the weaknesses of our current system, and putting tremendous pressure on the world. The Eurozone is threatening to break up right now over sovereign debt, with the Euro ceasing to exist as a currency. Supplies of certain elements (like Helium or Copper) are threatening to run out merely a few decades into the future at current consumption. The wealth divide across the world is nearing pre-Great Depression levels. In America, governance is reaching a new nadir.

The truth is that several European countries (especially Scandinavian ones) are outright kicking America's ass at good government and quality of life. The US has plummeted so far on several indices. Education is being ruined by the No Child Left Behind mentality, while several European countries are far ahead of us. The criminal justice system is infected by cancerous for-profit prisons (a booming business, let me tell you) and the continuing Drug War, fueled by unrepentant jingoism. Europe, on the other hand? Portugal and other countries have slashed or totally eliminated "Drug War"-type activities and redirected the money to rehabilitation, with amazing effects. Scandinavian countries suffer an INCREDIBLY lower rate of recidivism compared to ours, as their prisons are focused on rehabilitation as well. (No doubt because of their other social services.)

What else? America still has horribly stunted labor policies. America's Democratic party is the right-wing in Brazil and several European countries, and it shows in how we treat our labor. Our maternity leave rules and laws (where they even exist, because in many places they don't) are barbaric. Corporatism and union-busting, supported by the misguided American notion of being a self-made person, are rampant. America is a nation of down-on-their-luck billionaires. The unemployed and those on welfare are relentlessly demonized and despised, encouraging a cycle of oppression and destitution, rather than one of rehabilitation or encouragement. Overtime and minimum laws? America's are far behind several those of several European countries. And then, there's good old corruption; corporations in America can now make far more campaign contributions after the Supreme Court ruling in their favor for personhood/free speech. And on a different level, well...research the Koch brothers, and what they've been up to. It's 19th century graft. Let's not even get into how fucked up the political system is; our method of voting ensures the prevalence of a two-party system due to game theory, while other systems exist (notably in several European countries) that encourage diverse parties and parliaments.

It's almost easy to speculate the the US survived so long without better governance and laws simply because we had so much prosperity coming our way through latent advantages (plentiful natural resources, being a massive country in the first world sphere, etc.). And now that the inevitable crash of the perpetual growth system is coming, that prosperity is disappearing and the system's flaws are expressing themselves with savage impunity.

I could go on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on. Europe has its drawbacks, of course. Sadly, the trend doesn't seem to be reversing. The Democratic party is a confederation of different groups; true progressives are never the majority, and social democrats or (my god) actual socialists? Surely, you jest; it is already a mark of shame to be a progressive in this country, and far more to be a Red. Obama has done little to stem the erosion of our civil liberties, and thanks to the efficacy of the conservative machine, the Democrats always stand to lose again. The Supreme Court is still in a dire position, with several of the oldest members being the most leftist. Their retiring during a Republican presidency would further compound the rise of corporatism and the exploitation of labor and destruction of civil rights. The political field itself in America has become so peurile that this Onion pictorial captures it flawlessly:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/rumors-of-extramarital-affair-end-campaign-of-pres,26801/

Investigative journalism in America is also utterly terrible. Studies have shown that viewers of FOX News are actually less informed than people who don't read the news at all. The major networks appeal to desire for celebrities and shock cases (like Casey Anthony's), with little attention to relevant world news. After all, the American media is a for-profit enterprise; why sell intelligence when stupidity will make you far richer? Things just seem tobe going to fucking hell in this country. Sure, the younger generation is more leftist than the Boomers, and sure, they're also a hell of a lot more atheist, but it's the Boomers and the Xers who will be in charge as the pressures of overpopulation and resource starvation collapse this system of perpetual growth we're in. There will be dark days for America.

Look at the situation as it is. Poor business leadership, obsession with short-term profits, outsourcing of functions and reduction of core competencies, and the general mediocrity of the American people and their entertainment desires has made this a hostile atmosphere to people with true talent. Nowhere is that more evident among my friends and my peers here at the Chrono Compendium. I possess a hellspawn work ethic (for certain causes) and an incinerating desire to improve this world. But to be in politics? No, I'm an atheist and Social Democrat. I would sooner win the lottery than be elected in America. I have a friend in Brazil; she's creative, brilliant, and possesses a total mastery of Portuguese and English. She can't move beyond work at an exploitative translation company at present. I have a friend in Italy, a truly great designer with original ideas who's been featured in magazines like Vogue. She can't work in fashion any longer, as fashion has no interest in truly original things, but simply requires slaves to vary existing designs a tiny bit and ride the wave of obsolescence.

We have FaustWolf, King Diplomat, empathetic to the noblest causes, who was locked out of progressing farther in the political science field and has to fight fiercely just to be able to release his beneficent influence upon earth. We have tushantin, an unstoppably energetic personality who must wade through a sea of worthless people and mediocrity just to get scraps of airtime for his ideas. We have Lord J Esq, whose policy could shape the destiny of humanity towards a bright one, and yet would not achieve that position without considerable guile and hiding away of certain unpalatable positions. We have Syna, whose conversational prose excites me nearly to the point of Keats's poetry in St. Agnes, who must fight a gaming industry in which rehashing war games and ancient franchises is a much surer bet than doing something truly innovative. We have rushingwind, a budding genius geologist who must brave the sea of disappearing funding for the sciences to even hope for a shot at adding to the illuminated sum of human knowledge. We have many others here at the Compendium in the same boat, though I'm not sure enough of their situations to comment.

These are no longer the days of talented people having enough social services and support to pursue their craft. These are no longer the days of talent even being profitable. And since I find it so difficult to betray my own desire to do things I enjoy, such as writing (for which I have few ambitions of actually being published) or helping to change the world and destroy sexism, well—I'd rather have a tolerable job or career in Norway or the Czech Republic and be comfortably secure, than be desperate and destitute in America. I chose accounting as that side career in the US precisely to avoid destitution, and now, even with a Master's degree, 3.8 GPA, and laundry list of honors that other people cannot compensate for, I can't get a job in public accounting. There are many things I don't know about living in Europe. I don't know what it'd be like as a firsthand experience. I don't know if I'd like living in the extreme cold of Scandinavian countries. The destruction of this economy could always reach the best among them, as well. The cultural displacement is severe anywhere. There are daunting challenges to even making it and having enough residency to become a citizen.

But it may be worth it. My genetic components were varied—my namesake came to Virginia as a loyalist, and four generations later, fought the British as Major in the American Revolution. Other pieces came from England, Ireland, and Germany. But now, what came from Europe shall return there.

[tushantin]

Z, thank you very much for responding. I'll give mine shortly when I'm able. However, for now, I think this quote kinda suits the current discussion (it means a lot of things, but it's for everyone to find em):

Consider a recent paper, "The Dark Side of Creativity," led by Modupe Akinola. The setup was very clever: she asked subjects to give a short speech about their dream job. The students were randomly assigned to either a positive or negative feedback condition, in which their speech was greeted with smiles and vertical nods (positive) or frowns and horizontal shakes (negative). After the speech was over, the subjects were given glue, paper and colored felt and told to make a collage using the materials. Professional artists then evaluated each collage according to various metrics of creativity.

Not surprisingly, the feedback impacted the mood of the subjects: Those who received smiles during their speeches reported feeling better than before, while frowns had the opposite effect. What's interesting is what happened next: Subjects in the negative feedback condition created much prettier collages. Their angst led to better art. As Akinola notes, this is largely because the sadness improved their focus, and made them more likely to persist with the creative challenge.