The $%*! frustration thread

[Truthordeal]

Whoa, whoa, whoa...Everything you just said was wrong J. Everything.

This woman was not stroking her ego, she was not slamming the other people who died. She was saying that she was happy to be alive, and she attributed it to God looking out for her.

Can you not see how wrong it is that this woman is being flaked for saying "I feel very, really lucky. I think God was in our life."?  There was no bigotry in anything she said. You can interpret it that way by looking for bigotry, but most of us see it as a comment made by a Christian woman who believed that her life was saved by God looking out for her. Duress or not, there's nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with that.

If you don't like our frustration at that, then go complain to your All-Loving God.

Oh yes, and you're the one to lecture me on bigotry...

[Zephira]

The thing they're getting that is that if God was looking after that one woman, then what about the rest of the people in that crash? Why wasn't anyone looking after them?

[Uboa]

I'd be hesitant, to say the least, to find any fault with Casali before finding fault with the kind of theism that prompted her comment.  As a former Baptist, I can remember the forced nature with which myself and those around me were supposed to thank god for -everything- in our lives, because our faith was supposed to hold that strong come hell or high water.  To say our gratitude was a matter of ego stroking would be a misrepresentation to say the least.  It was a matter of doing what we were expected, by the church and god, to do.

[nightmare975]

I'd be hesitant, to say the least, to find any fault with Casali before finding fault with the kind of theism that prompted her comment.  As a former Baptist, I can remember the forced nature with which myself and those around me were supposed to thank god for -everything- in our lives, because our faith was supposed to hold that strong come hell or high water.  To say our gratitude was a matter of ego stroking would be a misrepresentation to say the least.  It was a matter of doing what we were expected, by the church and god, to do.

This. I am so glad I never got baptized.

[Truthordeal]

The thing they're getting that is that if God was looking after that one woman, then what about the rest of the people in that crash? Why wasn't anyone looking after them?

If they would say that, then I would've answered the damn thing. Zeality should know the reason I'm about to give, because of his religious background, though.

First of all, if you're a deist, then the answer should be obvious. However, she is not, so I won't deign on that for very long.

Now, for one thing, God makes people suffer because people gain wisdom from tragedy. Moreover, He allows tragedy to test people and to bring them closer to Him. If life was always perfect, with no suffering or sadness, people would grow away from Him, forget Him, even deny His existence. I personally believe that the reason atheism is growing in our country is because of the increase in the SOL of our country, due mainly to the efforts of man and the guidance of God.

When a religious person faces tragedy, they either blame God or they embrace him. Being religious, of course I believe that religion gives people hope. But unless you follow a path of righteous living, it is simply an opiate. Mock that if you will.

This is why suffering exists.

In the end, we all die. Some sooner than others, but this common fate is inevitable. As for who dies and who lives, that's up to God to decide. This may sound horrible, but no one is in a greater position to judge than He is, because He loves us all equally.

In this case, he chose Carsali to escape the accident. Literally speaking, Lord knows why. He obviously has something planned for her to do with her life before she meets her Maker.

Her comment, however, was merely in gratitude for Him guiding her to continue her life. As a Christian woman, she believes that God had a hand in the miracle she experienced.

She did not, however, comment on the deaths of her would-be passengers. She said nothing bigoted or insensitive at all.

And I'm not saying this to attempt to proselytize any of you. In fact, I'm sure I just turned most of you away from religion. I'm well aware that what I say sounds naive or silly to a nonbeliever(for lack of a better word).

Be that as it may, I've never looked down on anyone for their religious preferences, and I wish you would grant me that same courtesy.

[Lord J Esq]

I can respect your right to chose for yourself to be religious, but that's about it. However, the air crash story isn't about you; it's about the insensitive and frankly grating comments made by the interviewee. If you don't think they're insensitive or grating, that's your prerogative, and you've said so, and now here we are. =)

[FaustWolf]

Truth, I actually found your explanation fascinating from an academic standpoint at least. You might be interested in reading Simone Weil sometime, especially her Waiting for God. It's always interesting to hear different rationales for human suffering -- secular, humanist, religious, or otherwise. It's tough subject matter no matter which angle you approach it from, I think.

I've been more influenced by Deists in this regard I guess, but I've grown to find the notion of God directly controlling affairs unsettling. There is something to be said for an element of love in granting unfettered freedom too. Not what a parent would or should do, certainly, but maybe when you've got the power to defy immutable laws of science, intervening in the slightest becomes questionable.

[ZeaLitY]

like an abstract secular force such as fate or karma, guiding the events instead of God.

Same reaction. Karma is an attractive idea to some people because it gives them a sense of universal justice, and it just so happens that sloppy people usually do get what they give out, sooner or later. But it's a myth, just like astrology or other "fate".

In the end, we all die. Some sooner than others, but this common fate is inevitable.

What about those who are raised in cultures that have no exposure whatsoever to the Christian religion, like native Amazonians, or some Africans, or sheltered Asians? What happens when they die without a chance to board the Jesus train? Are they just going straight to hell because luck of the draw sent them six feet under before they could get baptized?

In this case, he chose Carsali to escape the accident. Literally speaking, Lord knows why. He obviously has something planned for her to do with her life before she meets her Maker.

It must be fun rationalizing everything as part of some plan. By this logic, we shouldn't try to make cars or streets safer, or make air travel safer, or try and prevent death. After all, the same people are going to die anyway, because it's all part of the divine plan. Why, we might as well not even choose to breathe. Everything is controlled by God.

We'll see what happens to this line of thinking when decades from now, Christians are a tiny majority of the last diehards as the rest of humanity has moved on. Religion is a logical house of cards; pull one, and the entire thing falls.

She did not, however, comment on the deaths of her would-be passengers. She said nothing bigoted or insensitive at all.

"I'm pretending that the word 'imply' doesn't exist or that 'indirect statement' is impossible in this world." Because God saved her, God must have wanted those other 9 people to die. There is no getting around this.

[Shee]

So Buck Sagebrush may end up being a rooster, which is bad news bears for us city slickers...jury's still out as the chick is only 3.5 weeks old right now...

I did however find basically damn near the equivalent of this place - only for chickens - and the early consensus there is rooster.  So that means we would need to find him another home so our neighbors don't murder us/he dosen't murder the hens with incessant mating.  Also then the other hen (assuming it's a hen, if they're BOTH roosters I'm going to FREAK)would be all alone in the coop because the other chicks we get this week will be a few weeks behind and unable to join her out here...not to mention all the time and effort and $$$ that went into them only to have to move them somewhere else safe...BAH

Never thought I'd come to fall in love with chikens...

[V_Translanka]

Attributing dumb luck to an act of God seems rather insulting to both Christianity & common sense if ya ask me...>_>

[Truthordeal]

What about those who are raised in cultures that have no exposure whatsoever to the Christian religion, like native Amazonians, or some Africans, or sheltered Asians? What happens when they die without a chance to board the Jesus train? Are they just going straight to hell because luck of the draw sent them six feet under before they could get baptized?

My faith has taught me that as long as they live a life of righteousness, they go to Heaven, regardless of what faith they practice, be it voodoo, Scientology or even atheism.

Yes Z, I do believe that you'll have a happy afterlife despite the fact that you don't believe in God, so long as you don't do anything stupid. I'm sure you don't care, but you would've used it as a club against me had I not made that clear.

It must be fun rationalizing everything as part of some plan. By this logic, we shouldn't try to make cars or streets safer, or make air travel safer, or try and prevent death. After all, the same people are going to die anyway, because it's all part of the divine plan. Why, we might as well not even choose to breathe. Everything is controlled by God.

Come on, Z, you ought to know better. The "plan" refers to the afterlife, not life on Earth. Human progress is essential to increase the happiness here on Earth, I don't deny that. But just like with Soddom and Gamorrah, there is such a thing as too much.

In any event, you should know the old saying by now: "God helps those that help themselves." He's not going to magically save a person committing suicide, unless He has a really specific plan for them. He's also not going to ensure that a pack-a-day smoker of 20 years is immune to lung cancer.

In the end, it all comes down to free will. Do what you want to your earthly body, accept death as soon as you want. The only part He concerns Himself with is death and the afterlife.

[Thought]

God was in your life, eh? If God was awake during this, why didn't his holiness fucking stop the helicopter and plane from colliding and killing those other 9 people? Does God just have a thing for people with the surname Casali?

You have an interesting perception of what god -- if such a being were to exist -- would be like. You seem to imagine some sort of divine helicopter-parent that is eternally ready to snatch humanity's hand away from the flame. Indeed, you seem to imagine that if a god exists, he should have gone around the universe padding every corner, childproofing every cupboard, and disinfecting every toy.

The thing they're getting that is that if God was looking after that one woman, then what about the rest of the people in that crash? Why wasn't anyone looking after them?

To note, no one ever said that someone wasn't looking after them. Though, if one then makes the claim that God was looking out for them, then that invokes the entire "God works in mysterious ways" argument, which tends to be unsatisfying for many individuals, religious and irreligious alike.

But from what you said, it seems that the original complaint is a rather redundant one. If belief in a divine power is illogical (as, amusingly enough, I would agree with Z on, even while rejecting that as grounds for rejecting religion), then it seems like it should be expected that such individuals would not always follow particular trains of thought out to their logical completion. Therefore, blaming an illogical woman for not having logically thought out the implications of a statement seems to be in poor form. Like chiding a 4 year old for being a child.

Because God saved her, God must have wanted those other 9 people to die. There is no getting around this.

Only in many forms of Systematic Theology. Process Theology, on the other hand, has no problem getting around that. I’m not sure what other forms of theology would say… I suspect Apophetic Theology would get around it as well with no problem, but I can’t say for sure.

There is something to be said for an element of love in granting unfettered freedom too. Not what a parent would or should do, certainly, but maybe when you've got the power to defy immutable laws of science, intervening in the slightest becomes questionable.

But at the same time, neither should a parent be overprotective. A good parent gives a child freedom, ideally not more than it can handle. From a Christian perspective, I find this to be a very heartening concept: that there is evil in the world means that God believes humanity is fully capable of dealing with that evil. Of course, while this form might be unique to religion, cognates of such a belief can be found outside of religion as well.

In the end, it all comes down to free will. Do what you want to your earthly body, accept death as soon as you want. The only part He concerns Himself with is death and the afterlife.

To be fair, there are Christians who believe as Z stated. See: Quiver Full Theology.
Of course, to be fair again, every Christian who believes in Free Will (either specifically or inherently) would reject that stance.

So, I guess Z's not just an atheist, he's an anti-Calvinist on top of that... actually, looking over the Five Points again, Z seems to almost perfectly be opposed to those points based on what they claim about humanity (as what those points say about the divine would be irrelevant in this context). Such an opposition is not so drastic if Calvinism were to be replaced with Armenianism, for example, or Methodism. Which is all really just to say that the Five Points of Calvinism could also be called "Z's Top 5 Things that are Wrong with Christianity." Okay, maybe not the top five, but up there at least.

Would you agree, Z, that you particularly hate the concepts of total depravity, human inability, and predestination (three themes that are in the five points)?

[Romana]

In any event, you should know the old saying by now: "God helps those that help themselves." He's not going to magically save a person committing suicide, unless He has a really specific plan for them. He's also not going to ensure that a pack-a-day smoker of 20 years is immune to lung cancer.

He's not willing to save a single person, yet he's willing to sacrifice innocent lives for some enigmatic 'grand plan'. Hmm. Despite everyone being 'equal' in his eyes, it's perfectly fine that millions die from disasters and disease, eh?

In the end, it all comes down to free will. Do what you want to your earthly body, accept death as soon as you want. The only part He concerns Himself with is death and the afterlife.

Waiiiit, so God decides what you do, when you die, etc., yet you have free will? ............????????????????

In the end, we all die. Some sooner than others, but this common fate is inevitable. As for who dies and who lives, that's up to God to decide.

So that justifies it? Nine innocent people have died, but that's okay because God said so? Would you say the same thing to their families that are left behind grieving? That's utter tyranny, hell; it's like there isn't much of a line between Christianity and Nazism.
 

This may sound horrible, but no one is in a greater position to judge than He is, because He loves us all equally.

If he loved everyone equally wouldn't people have control over their own lives? You don't chain someone to the ground all their life and say at the end "Oh it's okay because I love you".

[ZeaLitY]

My faith has taught me that as long as they live a life of righteousness, they go to Heaven, regardless of what faith they practice, be it voodoo, Scientology or even atheism.

Why not just burn the Bible, then, since its commandments disagree with those of scientology, voodoo, and atheism? The Bible has its own metric for living a life of righteousness. If God's just going to let any old bastard in who followed their own way, then everyone should join the Church of Las Vegas and fastidiously follow its hedonistic precepts, since it doesn't matter which flavor of religious righteousness one lives in your faith.

In the end, it all comes down to free will. Do what you want to your earthly body, accept death as soon as you want. The only part He concerns Himself with is death and the afterlife.

For the above, some denominations hold that the plan of salvation occurs on earth, too, and most wouldn't even bother making the distinction since they aim to live religiously and "spread the gospel" (and the word gospel can be used interchangeably with plan). And if you concede free will, then you accept my original point: Casali is an insensitive jerk for assuming that God wanted her to live and implying that God didn't care that the other 9 died.

God was in your life, eh? If God was awake during this, why didn't his holiness fucking stop the helicopter and plane from colliding and killing those other 9 people? Does God just have a thing for people with the surname Casali?

You have an interesting perception of what god -- if such a being were to exist -- would be like. You seem to imagine some sort of divine helicopter-parent that is eternally ready to snatch humanity's hand away from the flame. Indeed, you seem to imagine that if a god exists, he should have gone around the universe padding every corner, childproofing every cupboard, and disinfecting every toy.

You have an interesting way of ascribing to me what properly belongs to Ms. Casali. (And a lot of other Christians who believe in miracles.) They want God to answer their prayers whenever they please, but chalk up misfortune to mysterious ways. Too bad they can't have it both ways. Besides, if it's not God hovering above protecting one, it's a patron saint, or angels, or any other belief. The LDS church held that God knows your every thought and action.

Would you agree, Z, that you particularly hate the concepts of total depravity, human inability, and predestination (three themes that are in the five points)?

I wrote off Calvinism back when I was religious for deeming that God's elect had already been chosen. That seemed rather stupid. "Join us, but you aren't getting your money back in case you don't turn out to be one of the elect." Total depravity flies out of the window the moment education, intelligence, and self-directed evolution step into the room.

[Truthordeal]

My thoughts on the Bible: It is the Word of God, presented to the 12 disciples by Jesus.

However, ultimately, it is written by man, and is therefore flawed with their prejudices and interest. The DaVinci Code is a great resource on this, despite being a work of fiction.