Author Topic: The $%*! frustration thread  (Read 482580 times)

Ramsus

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2550 on: April 05, 2009, 01:24:58 am »
I actually bloody hate it when people reply to posts by breaking them up into tiny little quoted sentences and replying piecemeal to everything. It always comes across as inarticulate and amateurish, and to me it simply shows that you either didn't want to take the time to fully read everything and write a coherent response that addresses what I covered as a whole and then descends into the key points on which you either agree or disagree, or that you can't hold more than a few points, yet alone larger concepts, in your head at any one time.

I mean, I can understand separating an argument into its logical key points (each of which would usually consist of more than a single sentence), but going through something sentence by sentence doesn't make sense unless you're trying to completely break down and analyze the actual logical flow of the argument.

Basically, if you're only replying to each sentence with a sentence, then no question about it -- you're doing it wrong.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2551 on: April 05, 2009, 02:03:41 am »
Don't hate. Relax. It's all in good fun.

utunnels

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2552 on: April 05, 2009, 02:12:25 am »
Sleepy sleepy...
It seems 5 hour's sleep is not enough to make a good day.

MagilsugaM

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2553 on: April 05, 2009, 05:35:27 am »
Sleepy sleepy...
It seems 5 hour's sleep is not enough to make a good day.

U need about 9 if u study they say now.

Ramsus

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2554 on: April 05, 2009, 06:13:29 am »
So I've been reading about this Zeitgeist movement -- which is mostly a bunch of idealistic, touchy-feely hippies who think that society can be run from the top down by abolishing money and government and having computers run everything based on instruments measuring the earth's remaining resources and running robots that manufacture all the goods.

They don't realize that any social order governing the use of resources and distribution of goods must work from the bottom up, or else it can't be resilient and reliable. That's why money is so popular and capitalism works so well -- real money doesn't need to be managed or centralized to work, there just has to be enough of it to be fluid.

Not to mention all their arguments only apply against fiat money, not real money. Sure, fiat money fails because it doesn't have the decentralized, unmanaged property of real money, makes those who get the newly printed money first wealthier while making everyone else poorer, and causes continuous inflation which encourages people to take on debt instead of save, but that's no reason to abandon money altogether.

They also think that technological automation means capitalism will fall apart due to mass unemployment, but they don't stop to consider more practical alternatives like someday drastically reducing the length of the full-time work week to 2 or 3 days a week and increasing vacation time. Or if it ever gets to the point where there's just no work needed to be done by the majority of people, providing a basic monthly stipend to everyone, so those jobs that do exist still have incentives in terms of being able to find more wealth.

About the only good thing they're really proposing is an end to short-sighted consumerism and overuse or destruction of resources and more emphasis on long-term planning and sustainable resource usage, but they just don't realize that you have to do it by setting up the system so that there's natural incentives and disincentives governing what people do rather than simply telling society what the right thing to do is.

Otherwise, the system is too centralized and fragile. Some ambitious jackass who doesn't do what they're told can use resources to the detriment of everyone else, or a sun storm can knock out the world's central planning computer causing all the robots to not know how much stuff to make, and you get chaos.

Or worse, the instruments used by the computer turn out to be giving bad readings, and so the robots over-produce stuff and suddenly we've run out of gasoline or copper 50 years too soon.


It's frustrating because people actually buy into their ideals without stopping to deeply consider just how complex systems like societies work or to consider alternative ideas of how to change our society to be more functional.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 06:18:29 am by Ramsus »

teaflower

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2555 on: April 05, 2009, 09:47:54 am »
Sometimes I think that the world would just be better off without people. A system can work if there's no people. Communism sounds like a good idea in theory. In practice (i.e., with people) it doesn't work too well.

Indeed, a society needs to be built from the bottom up like any building. You don't usually make the roof of the house before you dig the foundation. Notice that the richer, wealthier people are up at the top while the poorer people are at the bottom of society's ladder. That's because, ultimately, there are a whole lot more poor people than there are rich people.

Robots are, in essence, people told to do one thing or more. To quote Lucca, "Robots aren't evil, people make them that way." Why? Because people make robots. You make a robot, you can hack into its interface or something like that and have it eat up all the gasoline. And then what happens?

Honestly, I feel like no matter what there will be criticism to the government. People criticize American policies and what not. People criticized the Roman Republic. And if this new Zeitgeist movement goes through and they have their government as they wish it, then people will criticize them. People like you, Ramsus.

Now, onto my frustration. Either last night wile roller blading I pulled all the muscles in my shoulders or I did that while I was sleeping. It could be either, but it hurts. LOTS. The good news in all this is that I can type without my thumb hurting too much. I think I jammed it last night when I fell. But I can move it!

MsBlack

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2556 on: April 05, 2009, 10:00:09 am »
...[Fiat money] makes those who get the newly printed money first wealthier while making everyone else poorer, and causes continuous inflation which encourages people to take on debt instead of save...

Elaborate?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 10:01:48 am by MsBlack »

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2557 on: April 05, 2009, 02:38:02 pm »
Not to mention all their arguments only apply against fiat money, not real money. Sure, fiat money fails because it doesn't have the decentralized, unmanaged property of real money, makes those who get the newly printed money first wealthier while making everyone else poorer, and causes continuous inflation which encourages people to take on debt instead of save, but that's no reason to abandon money altogether.

What do you mean by "real money"? All money, and all monetary value, is determined by human consensus.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2558 on: April 05, 2009, 03:25:41 pm »
So I've been reading about this Zeitgeist movement -- which is mostly a bunch of idealistic, touchy-feely hippies who think that society can be run from the top down by abolishing money and government and having computers run everything based on instruments measuring the earth's remaining resources and running robots that manufacture all the goods.

They don't realize that any social order governing the use of resources and distribution of goods must work from the bottom up, or else it can't be resilient and reliable. That's why money is so popular and capitalism works so well -- real money doesn't need to be managed or centralized to work, there just has to be enough of it to be fluid.

Not to mention all their arguments only apply against fiat money, not real money. Sure, fiat money fails because it doesn't have the decentralized, unmanaged property of real money, makes those who get the newly printed money first wealthier while making everyone else poorer, and causes continuous inflation which encourages people to take on debt instead of save, but that's no reason to abandon money altogether.

They also think that technological automation means capitalism will fall apart due to mass unemployment, but they don't stop to consider more practical alternatives like someday drastically reducing the length of the full-time work week to 2 or 3 days a week and increasing vacation time. Or if it ever gets to the point where there's just no work needed to be done by the majority of people, providing a basic monthly stipend to everyone, so those jobs that do exist still have incentives in terms of being able to find more wealth.

About the only good thing they're really proposing is an end to short-sighted consumerism and overuse or destruction of resources and more emphasis on long-term planning and sustainable resource usage, but they just don't realize that you have to do it by setting up the system so that there's natural incentives and disincentives governing what people do rather than simply telling society what the right thing to do is.

Otherwise, the system is too centralized and fragile. Some ambitious jackass who doesn't do what they're told can use resources to the detriment of everyone else, or a sun storm can knock out the world's central planning computer causing all the robots to not know how much stuff to make, and you get chaos.

Or worse, the instruments used by the computer turn out to be giving bad readings, and so the robots over-produce stuff and suddenly we've run out of gasoline or copper 50 years too soon.


It's frustrating because people actually buy into their ideals without stopping to deeply consider just how complex systems like societies work or to consider alternative ideas of how to change our society to be more functional.

Ah! You know, just the other week a bunch of my friends were hanging out, and one of us was very much in line with the whole Zeitgeist theory of things, and the others of us were attempting to point out the philosophical and social problems that would be inherent in it.

For example, people will always use things to take power over others. It's not just in the use of money. Whoever has set up the computer systems, etc. will always have an edge, and as long as there's even the most subtle difference between people, it will be exploited to the advantage of one over and against another. That's nature. Not just human nature, but nature as a whole. Nature is not something peaceful and in proper accord and tune and all that crap, but it works because the various conflicting systems stand at a perfect stalemate of power. The same works between people.

Anyway, my main objection to things like this is the over-dependancy on technology. I think we should be careful of putting ourselves into such a circumstance more than we already are. Or, at any rate, we should be wary of doing it too quickly. We can't let our technology so overcome us that we become utterly dependant on it for our absolute survival.

Actually, I think essentially the main problem with this and every other altruistic system that has been proposed it nicely summed up in your statement of 'an ambitious jackass.' Not to mention something else... this is an ideal of an entirely planned society... and though I am not really at all versed in science fiction writing, I am dead certain the pitfalls of such a society have been examined a hundred and a thousand times. It is an interesting thought, but I don't think it has much realistic potential.

Then again, the most of Zeitgeist is out to lunch as it is. Anyone watch the first part of those videos? Anyone with a low-level knowledge of myth and mythological theory would laugh at their naive and logically incoherent assumptions. From stating things that are outright false in regards to ancient myths (ie. Dionysus as a virgin birth, a claim that is simply false), to claims that make use of mythological theories that are outdated by a century (ie. attribution of mythic origins to solar/natural phenomenae alone is a theory that holds very little water anymore, at least in mainstream scholarly community.) I know there are those who consider the things proposed on them somehow earthshattering or some sort of disproving of religion, but it's nothing of the sort. If one truly wanted to make an intelligent comparison, such as might be found in modern scholarship, you could, for example, cite the similiarities between the life, death, and aftermath of Sokrates to the story of Jesus as told in the Bible. I think a strong argument can be made for a typological similarity. There are such arguments that are, if not entirely sound, at least interesting and plausable. But to anyone who has invested any time in studying the fields of antiquity, of old literature and archaeology and all that surrounds it, can at once spot how fallacious and essentially childlike the arguments are, not only on a factual basis, but also on a methodological one.

As such, it already puts their understanding and ability to reason into doubt. It's little wonder that their discussions on social problems would be frought with error and the like.

My gripe, therefore? The people who set forward and then those who believe pseudo-science, pseudo-history, pseudo-myth, and all the other pseudos, rejecting the standards of those fields with fringe theories based on ignorance. There is a very real reason we have peer review and experts in fields and, like it or not, most of the time those people are experts for a reason. It's the rarest circumstance where an outside party can bring something new to the table intelligently (ie. Michael Ventris and his decipherment of Linear B), and in that case it generally takes far more than a theory with a few specious tidbits that one's attempted to mould into proof. The logic that stands behind pseudo-whatever is generally based on a distrust of 'the man' (whilst still citing several 'authorities' in the system, to appear legitimate), generally propogated by one or a few individuals, and takes the very un-scientific method of setting forward a pet theory on little to no initial evidence and finding everything one can to support it whilst twisting or denying everything that doesn't. So, because pyramids exist in both Meso America and in Egypt, we have Egyptian colonists sail to America (because there's NO way those new world primitives could build things like THAT on their own, right?) or, better yet, aliens did it because people then, well, we weren't as smart as these days, so we couldn't have done it. *sigh* Please, for the love of all that is at least partially true, run from such theories. Question standard theorems if you wish, but question their premises with intelligent dialogue! Don't just make sweeping statements based on bloody esoteric knowledge claims! Because I'll tell you what... Zeitgeist and its ilk... is to the modern system of knowledge what the Mystery Religions were to the people of old: claims to arcane knowledge. That's always got an appeal to the human spirit, no matter what. But it's almost never founded on anything sure.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 11:53:38 pm by Daniel Krispin »

Ramsus

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2559 on: April 05, 2009, 10:11:06 pm »
Not to mention all their arguments only apply against fiat money, not real money. Sure, fiat money fails because it doesn't have the decentralized, unmanaged property of real money, makes those who get the newly printed money first wealthier while making everyone else poorer, and causes continuous inflation which encourages people to take on debt instead of save, but that's no reason to abandon money altogether.

What do you mean by "real money"? All money, and all monetary value, is determined by human consensus.

The value of real money is limited by the scarcity of the very thing it's based on, and as such real money has the ability to naturally come about as a form of intermediary exchange without the need for institutions to force upon people the perceived value. Sure, if your money isn't as scarce as you think it is, you can always go out and find more of the thing and make it overly abundant, but then a new form of money based on something that is scarce will come about and quickly replace it.

The value of fiat money is dictated to us by the institution making it, but honestly, without force and intimidation keeping people from abandoning or reproducing fiat money, how would its value continue to exist? The very existence of fiat money leads to tyranny.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 10:15:57 pm by Ramsus »

Ramsus

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2560 on: April 05, 2009, 10:49:38 pm »
...[Fiat money] makes those who get the newly printed money first wealthier while making everyone else poorer, and causes continuous inflation which encourages people to take on debt instead of save...

Elaborate?

As the Fed or central bank increases the money supply, those who can take advantage of the newly created money first can do so before prices have adjusted to the inflation they've created. By the time the money has funneled through the federal reserve system and has been used to create new factories, new jobs, and improve your employer's business enough to begin affecting you, prices will have already started reflecting the inflation.

Except, you probably haven't gotten a raise yet.

In the end, you lose out. As the cycle repeats, those who get the money first accumulate more wealth, while you lose wealth, because they can use the money to generate wealth at today's prices, where you aren't affected by it until tomorrow's prices have taken effect. Basically, their purchasing power is increased by the new money, while yours is decreased.

But what does that have to do with debt? People take on debt instead of saving, because the Fed's consistent increasing of the money supply means that inflations has become an inevitable norm, and an entire generation of Americans now think that this is simply how money works. Knowing that your dollar is worth more right now than it will be in a few years (or really, ever will be), means that simply saving your money is almost absurd, and the temptation to borrow money now and pay it back with money that has less value later is increased. Sure, you can invest it, but then you'll either come out at about even, or if you try to get ahead, you could lose a lot too. And all of this is intuitively understood by the American public.



chrono eric

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2561 on: April 06, 2009, 04:39:56 am »
Hmm it is my friends birthday and I just took him out to a local bar. It was $2.50 wells and that is pretty much all we drank. But somehow, between just the two of us, we racked up a bill of fifty dollars in three hours. Something doesn't add up. But the thing is, I was a little too drunk to do the math and argue about it in the bar. Now that I'm home though, I'm fairly certain that I somehow got ripped off.

But can you imagine having a last name of "Smith" or something? God that would suck. So many people would say, "put it on my tab, the last name is 'Smith'." and then you would frequently have a massive tab that you would have to argue with the bartender about.

Actually, come to think of it, that is a pretty good idea...maybe I'll try to drink for free next time.

Uboa

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2562 on: April 06, 2009, 06:03:00 am »
Trying to reinstall windows has brought me to the brink of boot nuking.

 :picardno

And in the process of writing a boot nuke CD I somehow managed to drop my laptop on my dog.  I'm a little worried about him now, because I think my laptop weighs more than my dog.   :(

(I blame Microsoft.)
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 06:19:57 am by Uboa »

placidchap

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2563 on: April 06, 2009, 10:22:40 am »
Quote from: various
...fiat money...

Money as Debt by Paul Grignon is a nice little 47 minute artciulation on how today's money is debt.  I'd post a link but I don't have access to streaming video websites atm...but it is on Google Video.

teaflower

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2564 on: April 06, 2009, 11:40:59 am »
I'm frustrated at myself.

You see, we got hit with a poster to do for bio a few days back. Mine was on whooping cough. I didn't have the materials, so yesterday my mom went to the craft store and got this bigass poster board. Right? Now, here's the thing. Yesterday, I spent the time I could've been using on my poster... here. Here and elsewhere on the internet. The poster is due NEXT PERIOD so...

... my own inability to focus, as well as my tendency to procrastinate, has probably tanked my bio grade.

I'm debating between playing sick and getting sent home and toughing it out, trying to finish it. If I don't finish it, I left it at home. If I did, no problem.

But... still. I need more discipline.