The $%*! frustration thread

[ZaichikArky]

You're an idiot. Go read the proposals and discussions. The "Death Panel" is a bald-faced lie perpetuated by Palin and the like, and you, like the idiots disrupting town halls, buy right into it.

Please behave yourself. Why are you always the one initiating the name calling? You are making a very bad impression considering your position here.

[FaustWolf]

I thought Truthordeal handled the confrontation well with the exception of suggesting that Sarah Palin could actually be right on this issue; I hope he wrote that just for kicks. The provision is about end of life counseling, isn't it? I think people are confusing Jack Kavorkian's version of end of life counseling with that of expert legal and psychological assistance, which I really wouldn't mind having when the bell tolls.

Just for the record, I think John McCain, an actual Senator, knows more about what's in the health care bill than George Stephanopolous.

I have this huge fear that our lawmakers really have no clue what's in the giant bills they're passing these days. Something tells me McCain didn't stay up two months straight to read all x thousand pages of the Health Care Bill that's being tossed around right now. It's more likely that each lawmaker proposes a certain snippet of the bill, and that's all they really know about it and take interest in. Maybe they get a few interns to actually read important sections. That there are death panel rumors at all probably reflects the possibility that nobody's actually reading it.

But it's just my fear; I really hope all US representatives chew over each and every word of each and every bill before they vote, and that the language is actually drafted by the representatives and not, say, special interest groups that get rubber stamps in exchange for their expertise and connections.

Okay, as far as the whole healthcare plan is concerned, and the government in general, I'm tired of everyone complaining so much about things that you can't really change. We can't change the minds of the rich bastards who decide what's best for us, the general public. What we can change is ourselves. We can change our clothes, our moods, whatever. Too many people think on the "World scale" and not so much the "Personal scale." Why don't we, instead of spouting back something that someone else told us, come together as one and agree that there's nothing we can do to change any of it?

I think there's huge merit to looking inward and attitudinally adjusting, but there is also a breaking point somewhere between "oh, crap, the coffee maker broke today," and "oh, crap, the small company I work for can't offer me and my kids health insurance." Telling a single mom without health insurance to adjust her attitude is like telling a Nazi concentration camp victim to just look on the bright side of things.

[Lakonthegreat]

It's more likely that each lawmaker proposes a certain snippet of the bill, and that's all they really know about it and take interest in.

This is exactly how earmarks get put into large spending bills.

[FaustWolf]

Yeah, I think it's part of the psychology of any legislative process, especially if there's some kind of competition involved. Nobody wants to be the lawmaker who didn't have an obvious part in crafting an important bill. That's my theory at least.

[Truthordeal]

I hope to God that Sarah Palin was wrong, FW. That Congress would think to try to legislate Kevorkian counseling is diabolical. In all honesty, I think the issue was some important lawmaker doing something unethical(i.e., earmarks, special interest subsidies), but I also trust John McCain as someone who's inside the sessions over George S. who has to rely on memos and Robert Gibbs.

Anywho, to get this hijacked topic back on track, I got a TB skin test on Friday and I'm getting my results read tomorrow morning. Plus I can't find my new shoes that I bought for college.

[Lakonthegreat]

You can read your results right now. Is it huge and red? or very small and almost unnoticeable?

If it's huge, then it's positive. If it's small, it's negative.

[ZombieBucky]

ugh wtf is this shit. a couple of days ago a series of strange purplish marks appeared on my left thigh. they dont hurt and theyre totally random, and theyre also on my right thigh but not as much as the elft. apparently theyre bruises, but i have no clue what they mean, how they got there, or what to do about them.

[ZeaLitY]

You're an idiot. Go read the proposals and discussions. The "Death Panel" is a bald-faced lie perpetuated by Palin and the like, and you, like the idiots disrupting town halls, buy right into it.

Please behave yourself. Why are you always the one initiating the name calling? You are making a very bad impression considering your position here.

Give me a break. Truthordeal is the biggest purveyor of ignorance on these forums at this point, whether it's about sexism, religion, or any other number of topics about humanity, and he's also the most intellectually dishonest poster around. If he were worth better treatment, he'd get it. He doesn't actually argue anything (I guess you don't need to when your authoritative source is an irrational, mythological "God"); he just spouts the same bullshit positions and vapid claims. That's called being an idiot.

The Death Panel nonsense is political maneuvering to defeat the health care bill, which will cripple the Democratic agenda in a large part and stain this administration. McCain himself called for health care as part of his campaign, and yet now, he's joining the rest of the Republicans who think it's A-OK, just like hypocrite Glenn Beck and Newt Gingrich (Beck even called our healthcare system as "nightmare" in the past, and now considers it the best in the world? Come on). It's a political turf war, and the idiot redneck ignorant Republican base is feeding on the lies, as are several other mental lightweights.

[Truthordeal]

Z, there's nothing more ignorant or intellectually dishonest than an ad hominem.

Of course most of the health care debate in Congress is political maneuvering. Do you think I'm an idiot? Scratch that, I already know the answer. The same thing happens by the opposing party of the president, every time a new president is elected or a certain party reaches a majority or super majority in Congress.

Where were you the last eight years?

You can read your results right now. Is it huge and red? or very small and almost unnoticeable?

If it's huge, then it's positive. If it's small, it's negative.

Ah, thanks Lakon. I'm negative, which I figured. The college just wanted to make sure though.

[GenesisOne]

Before we delve any further over who's got the most basis in reality when it comes America's health care system, let's first lay down some common ground to stand on:

1. America's health care system is a mess.
2. Costs for everything (prescriptions, insurance, diagnoses, and so on) are out of control.
3. Drug companies are, in essence, ripping off their customers.
4. Insurance companies and doctors are potentially profiting from health care.
5. Health care is the ultimate incentive for keeping your job. (.e. No job = No health insurance)
6. Some people feel ready for universal (aka government-sponsored) health care.

If any of these points strike you as incorrect of flawed, by all means chime in. I care very much about this problem and would hate to be seen as ignorant on the subject of health care.

[Lakonthegreat]

I'll say one more thing about the universal healthcare system proposed. I have state-based insurance that I don't have to pay a cent for. It covers everything. Health, dental, eye, and even behavioral medicine and therapy. All of this doesn't cost me a cent, and honestly I could care less how much the state has to pay for it. If everybody had the option to do this, I think it would be just great. It's helped this struggling, myopic, and accident-prone college student a lot.

[Truthordeal]

1. America's health care system is a mess.[\quote]

Sure, but compared to other systems that have tried UHC, it could be much, much worse. To give an example, Japan.

2. Costs for everything (prescriptions, insurance, diagnoses, and so on) are out of control.

Hell yes. One proven, effective and prudent method of trying to control costs: tort reform.

3. Drug companies are, in essence, ripping off their customers.

Drug companies have to make a profit too, or else there will be no medicine easily available. Research and development, plus maintaining the stream of medicine to drug stores, especially as America "grays" and seniors live longer takes quite a toll on their profit margin.

Plus there are several hoops that the FDA requires any new drug to jump through to be able to be distributed. Bureaucratic red tape is a bitch. Many of these are necessary, but a lot of them are not.

4. Insurance companies and doctors are potentially profiting from health care.

This statement is true, but its...its obvious. People work at professions to profit. I'm not sure why this is a bad thing, so if you could clarify it...

5. Health care is the ultimate incentive for keeping your job. (.e. No job = No health insurance)

I'd say the paycheck you receive every two weeks is the ultimate incentive. Not to mention that as insurance costs go up, several private employers have stopped giving health insurance benefits.

6. Some people feel ready for universal (aka government-sponsored) health care.

Sure, some people feel ready. I'd have to say with the polling done on this matter, though, "some people" are not the majority. No, the majority doesn't necessarily represent the truth or the best option, but in a democracy, even under the Madisonian model, the majority rules.

I'll say one more thing about the universal healthcare system proposed. I have state-based insurance that I don't have to pay a cent for. It covers everything. Health, dental, eye, and even behavioral medicine and therapy. All of this doesn't cost me a cent, and honestly I could care less how much the state has to pay for it. If everybody had the option to do this, I think it would be just great. It's helped this struggling, myopic, and accident-prone college student a lot.

If this country could afford it, and it didn't end with the rationing of health care, I'd support that. I'm not inhumane; its not like I don't have sympathy towards the people that go without health care. But giving everyone health care for free is not sustainable, and I'd rather us have a majority of our indigent and elderly people who can't afford or don't qualify for health insurance taken care of through Medicaid and Medicare, than no one having health insurance except for the people who can dish out that kind of money each month.

[ZaichikArky]

I just broke up with my boyfriend of 5 years. I wonder if I made the right decision. Something tells me I made the wrong one and in a couple years, I will really regret making it.

[Lakonthegreat]

I just broke up with my boyfriend of 5 years. I wonder if I made the right decision. Something tells me I made the wrong one and in a couple years, I will really regret making it.

Well ZaichikArky, I'm sorry to hear that. However, Roughly half of the population of the world are male, and I am no proponent of the "There's only one person for everyone" theory. So however long it will be until you find love again, you will.

[Lord J Esq]

I just broke up with my boyfriend of 5 years. I wonder if I made the right decision. Something tells me I made the wrong one and in a couple years, I will really regret making it.

You made exactly the right decision. You've mentioned this relationship several times on the forums; it was clear that your emotions weren't in the right place. It's not necessarily that he's not a good guy, or that you're not a good guy, or that the two of you are incompatible. Rather, you weren't emotionally satisfied and, regardless of whether there are good reasons for it or not, that by itself is a powerful reason to end a relationship.

Okay, as far as the whole healthcare plan is concerned, and the government in general, I'm tired of everyone complaining so much about things that you can't really change. We can't change the minds of the rich bastards who decide what's best for us, the general public. What we can change is ourselves. We can change our clothes, our moods, whatever. Too many people think on the "World scale" and not so much the "Personal scale." Why don't we, instead of spouting back something that someone else told us, come together as one and agree that there's nothing we can do to change any of it?

"Can't make a difference; don't try."

Yeah, I've heard that philosophy before. Best of luck to you with it, but I won't be coming along. I've printed too many business cards to even think about giving up on changing the world. (They say: Josh Industries: Striving for world peace, or a piece of the world.)

I'm sorry Z, I must have missed the part where you read the House and Senate bills in their entirety, hired a lawyer to explain all of the legalese and BS that goes into any of these legislative bills, rather than viewing some bias-ridden condensed version from whatever left-wing blog you frequent.

I'm not convinced that the "death panels" are real, but I do know that in the last week or so the Senate did a 360 and dropped a major portion of the end of life counseling part of their version of the health care bill. I have no idea what exactly was dropped, because I don't feel like reading the damn thing and trying to translate it.

Maybe you're right, and all they dropped was a funding for X vaccine for elderly people. Or maybe Sarah Palin's right and the Congress wants to kill old people. Like I said, I don't know, and neither do you or George Stephanopoulos.

It is scary how excellent an example you are of the kind of person for whom propaganda was invented. If I had the time, I'd write a whole academic essay dissecting how perfectly you are saying articulating exactly what someone else wants you to believe, despite believing without hesitation that these thoughts come to you on your own. It's all there: the ridiculous emotional hook ("death panels"), the backhanded insinuation (the Senate changed its bill for some reason), the appeal to authority (none of us could possibly know what's up because we're not Senators), the false authority (you say you didn't read the bill, but speak as if your speculation were fact), and the ever-popular red herring (ZeaLitY's full of bias from all those left-wing blogs).

Critical thought is your friend. Say it with me...

That's my frustration for the moment. It's always the sheep who do the most harm in the end, because they allow themselves, through ignorance, to become the enablers of evil. We live in a time when our healthcare industry makes its profits by denying people the coverage for which they dearly pay. It is an industry that literally and directly profits by murdering its own customers. We don't think of it as murder because there are no guns or swords, but it is deliberate, it is knowledgeable, and it is flagrantly defiant. Ordinary Americans know this; they're not getting the care they need, or the coverage they deserve. They're on the phone arguing about claims. They're suffering. Yet the power of propaganda is such that even one of the most obvious truths in our lives today has become completely obscured in just a few months of intense lobbying by the insurance and pharmaceutical industries, and their willing enablers on the right (and to a much lesser extent on the left). So here we are, and instead of talking about actual healthcare reform, we're talking about death panels and rationing and government bureaucrats.

What spectacular weaklings are those who abandon the power of thought, and yet what immense power they wield in their multitudes. What an excellent case against the merits of democracy. Death panels. Really. Death panels.

I no longer need to qualify this statement ever again: People will believe anything.