TTI/TB/TE Reformation Idea Collection

[placidchap]

I did base it off of the article, as it not only says it is the case for gates and the Epoch but also the EoT and DBT.  I was just ignoring the gates/Epoch application as I don't think it applies...(that is gate to gate and epoch to epoch time travels)

Now what if both the Normal and the TE axes occur simultaneously for everyone?  The End of Time time function and the "normal" time function are made up of the same two time axes, but their equation is set up differently.  Now I say this because I can't really picture a perpendicular set of time axes and the fact that time does flow forward whether at the EoT or in the normal time flow.  To me, a perpendicular setup would result in one axis seeing the other as frozen in time, due to one going up/down and the other going left/right.  If both were going up/down and left/right, but at different rates, then I can mentally put it together.

For example,
the EoT time axis has a ratio of 10:1, Normal Time (NT) to Time Error, so for every one unit of TE, 10 pass in normal time.
the Normal axis has a ratio of 1:1, NT to TE.  So for every one unit of NT, one of TE also occurs.

This would be consistent with the idea of TE, that observers on Normal Time would see those on TE as presumably ageless.  And so there is no unaccounted normal time or time error, there is an equalizing function when passing from one axis function to another.  In this example it would be a factor of 10.  When passing from the Normal Flow to the EoT Flow, the normal time axis has to be multiplied by 10 to reach the corresponding EoT and when going from the EoT Flow to the Normal Flow, normal time axis would be divided by 10.

Figures that I try to say TE is  not necessary and overly complicated and I end up with an idea that not only keeps it but makes it seemingly more complicated.  Could this be possible? 

picture attached to show example.  [note: (NT,TE) is like plotting (x,y) on a graph.]

edit: modified picture to show a "gate to gate", using time error in a slightly different manor.    Going from 1000AD back to 600AD would result in going back -400 years on "normal" time which is then offset by +400 years on the Time Error.

edit: modified again to show a gate/epoch to EoT to gate/epoch

[attachment deleted by admin]

[chrono eric]

To me, a perpendicular setup would result in one axis seeing the other as frozen in time, due to one going up/down and the other going left/right. 

This, I believe, is correct and is what I mentioned earlier. If the EoT is truly perpendicular to the timeline then what Gaspar would probably see is Crono entering a gate at Time X, and then every action that Crono took in the timeline manifested instantaneously in the timeline. Gaspar would be able to see instantly from the EoT that at Time X+whatever Crono enters a Gate in the timeline bound for the EoT again. Gaspar would have to wait at there until Time X+whatever for Crono to return unless Time Error does not flow at equal rates at the EoT and in the timeline as you have presented. For example, if Time Error flows faster in the timeline that at the EoT, then Crono could have spent days in the timeline and only minutes pass at the EoT.

However, as you also pointed out, this overly complicates things because there is really no evidence for it. Except, perhaps, that Gaspar has no apparent source of food at the EoT (grilled Spekkio anybody?) and the Crono adventure realistically would have taken weeks or months for them to finish.

[placidchap]

It may or may not be more or less complicated, but it is certainly different than the original version of TE...

A less complicated example, at least to me would be:

Both EoT and Normal time are on parallel axes, time flowing at the same rate for each and all gates connect to the EoT.  The perpendicular aspect is really not necessary.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[chrono eric]

Here you have the EoT and normal time running parallel to each other as two separate dimensions would, or as the EoT would if it was offset from the normal timeline by a few moments. I wonder, if this were the case, if Gaspar would truly be able to see events in the entire timeline? What do you think?

[Eske]

Here you have the EoT and normal time running parallel to each other as two separate dimensions would, or as the EoT would if it was offset from the normal timeline by a few moments. I wonder, if this were the case, if Gaspar would truly be able to see events in the entire timeline? What do you think?

Nope, that wouldn't make any sense.  The timelines would have to be perpendicular for that to be possible.


@placidchap:  Well, if the timelines were perpendicular to eachother, we run into a problem if we we include gate/Epoch travel in Time Error:

As stated, to Gaspar the normal timeline would appear frozen, and all changes made prior to returning to the EoT would manifest instantaneously.   Since that is the case, all departure and arrival pairs would still appear to be simultaneous or nearly so.  This means that the so called hours of "Time Error" that Crono spends in 600AD making changes would be less than a second of "Time Error" at the End of Time.

If it wasn't this way, there would exist some mechanism preventing Gaspar from seeing the changes manifest instantaneously - that would just overly complicate matters though.

So, it is my understanding that unless I have made an error, you have to be right about gate/Epoch travel.

But, that still leaves the problem of a simultaneous Crono & Gaspar arrival.  What axis could create distance between these events?

Considering this, I believe that your first chart demonstrates a viable theory, even if it seems to overly complicate matters.  The following cannot occur:

Crono and Gaspar arrive simultaneously.
Time Error spent in eras = Time Error from EoT vantage point.

[Eske]

Yes I'm double posting 

Alright, reviewing everything, I now feel that it may be too quick of us to say that the End of Time runs solely on Time Error.  I have reasons for this.   Note that the Compendium views the End of Time as a perpendicular axis of time.

Another way to think of it follows; firstly, imagine that Crono goes back in time and labors hard for two hours. How would people in the normal timeline measure the duration of Crono's changing history? They could not; that history would seem normal to them. Yet from the End of Time, Gaspar can clearly watch Crono arrive, work for two hours, and then depart.

Not quite.  Time Error is a perpendicular axis, therefore the normal timeline would look frozen to an observer from this axis.

Now, the Compendium compares this example of a perpendicular axis with that of a parallel axis:

This neatly explains the nature of the passage of time in places such as the End of Time and the Darkness Beyond Time. It also works for dimensions; if Serge leaves for Home World and returns to Another, he'll return at the time of his original departure plus how much time he spent in Home World. Time travelers conducting business in history can also said to exhibit a personal tabulation of Time Error. Let's say that after Crono went to the End of Time, it took him twenty days of his personal life to defeat Lavos. In actuality, he skipped all over the eras of the timeline, but at the End of Time, twenty days would have cleanly passed.

That doesn't make any sense.  Sure, with the Serge example, the logic is sound (parallel timelines), but they compared apples to oranges and came up with the same result.

Another thing that remains unaddressed is how the party "jumps" to an entirely different axis.
Not only would this NOT be time travel, but when leaving the normal timeline, you would appear at every point on the timeline perpendicular to yours.  So, by that logic, Gaspar and Crono would arrive at the same time - we would need an even higher order of time to create "distance" between their arrivals (Time Error Error???).

1) We know that there exists at least four dimensions: 3 dimensions in which an object can move physically, and then we have time being the fourth dimension. 2) When time travel is achieved, as in the case of the events of Chrono Trigger, we now have time being considered an axis of position instead of truly being an axis of time, and a new "time" axis is required to measure where the object is according to the other 4 dimensions (This is describing what you were talking about with the future continuing on and the past being time-bastarded out as far as the time travelers are concerned).

So, this agrees with the notion that there could be multiple time axes - one is 4-D time, and one is 5-D time. So, when time travel is achieved by an object, that object is being described in 5 dimensions instead of the normal 4.

For gates and Epoch use, this completely works, but throw the End of Time into the mix and it falls apart.  What I like about this portion of the Time Error presentation is that it really does show us we need a 5Th axis.  The other 4 are simply positional now - we need another axis to relate them to eachother and establish an order.

I will say again that the only way this could work (in my opinion) is if the End of Time's Japanese name was taken literally (the Farthest Reaches) and was simply a single moment ahead of the "developing" timeline. In other words, the End of Time is what is truly at the far far end of the gate - the last stop. 

It is the only way to break causality and match the idea of the 5Th axis with events in the game.

[placidchap]

Here you have the EoT and normal time running parallel to each other as two separate dimensions would, or as the EoT would if it was offset from the normal timeline by a few moments. I wonder, if this were the case, if Gaspar would truly be able to see events in the entire timeline? What do you think?

Nope, that wouldn't make any sense.  The timelines would have to be perpendicular for that to be possible.

It could make sense if the End of Time, on its own axis, is effectively far ahead of the normal time axis and all of the events of CT are in EoT's effective past.  And it could also make sense if, as my diagram showed, if all points in time on the normal axis somehow connect to the singular point of the EoT, as it travels on its own axis, even if it is parallel.

Considering this, I believe that your first chart demonstrates a viable theory, even if it seems to overly complicate matters.  The following cannot occur:

Crono and Gaspar arrive simultaneously.
Time Error spent in eras = Time Error from EoT vantage point.

Hmm, rather than my example of (1,1) for Normal Time and (10,1) for EoT, which I now see as incorrect...what about this:

With NT as Normal Time and TE as Time Error (NT,TE)
Normal time (1, 1/10)
End of Time (10, 1)

The number 1 is what Crono and crew experience first hand.  That is, the time you and I are experiencing right now.

When you are in normal time, you experience NT as 1 but time in TE appears to be going 1/10th the speed of of NT.  When accessing the EoT, multiply both rates by 10 and you get (10,1).  Now time at the EoT is 1 and the rate of normal time is passing at 10x the normal rate.  When accessing normal time you divide both rates by 10 as you travel from one axis to the other.

So lets say with (NT,TE) we are at 1000AD, meaning EoT time is 100.  This would be (1000,100) when on the normal time axis.  When accessing the EoT, an equalizing factor of 10 is attributed to both NT and TE, resulting in (10000,1000).  Spending one year at the End of Time would show as (10010,1001).  Now if after that year, you return to the normal time axis, that same equalizing factor is applied but in reverse direction (1/10).  Now when you arrive on normal time it is (1001,101).  No time is lost.

This can explain why time passes when at the EoT and in the eras (i.e. not perpendicular), why it seems like things on the EoT axis can seem ageless from people on normal time and it can explain why Gaspar can see all eras, as from his perspective, all of the eras we have visited have already transpired.  If anything, it explains from the article some kind of relation on why time U spent in the EoT translates to X+U on normal time....

What do you think?

[Eske]

There is still an issue though: 

The Time Error you have set up looks to be a parallel axis of time that moves at a different "rate".
When going to and from the normal timeline, there are mechanisms in place to "translate" your experience of time.  This works for our timeline to the EoT and back, but what about between eras?

Also, Time Error needs to be perpendicular, otherwise it will never fill the specific role that the Compendium created it for,  to explain the Personal Timeline in relation to the Normal Timeline.

Example:

Crono travels from 1000AD to 600AD. He spends 30 minutes there.
Crono travels from 600AD to 2300AD.  He spends 15 minutes there.
Crono travels from 2300AD to 12000BC. He spends 45 minutes there.
Crono travels from 12000BC to 1000AD again.

Total Time Error spent in other eras: 1.5 hours

Timeline:

----3---------------------1------------------0-4----------------------2--------------------------------
12k BC                 600 AD                1000 AD                 2300 AD

On the timeline, these events appear out of order.  Indeed, like the Compendium states, the axis of time is just another means of indicating position once time travel is achieved. Therefore we would need a perpendicular timeline to establish an "order" to these events, much like how 4D time establishes an order to the changes made to the state of matter in 3D space.  5D would have to establish an order to the changes made to the state of 4D time.  In what way could a parallel model possibly play the required role?

[chrono eric]

Indeed, I agree with Eske, I have always viewed Time Error as being another perpendicular axis of time. We call it "5D" movement, but really there is an additional dimension to time as well - The End of Time.

So there is an X, a Y, and a Z axis of time. Time is three dimensional in the Chronoverse just as space is. The normal timeline occupies axis X, the EoT occupies axis Y, and Time Error occupies axis Z. In this way all three are perpendicular to each other, and any amount of time spent in the timeline or the EoT results in an amount of time spent in Time Error.

[Eske]

Indeed, I agree with Eske, I have always viewed Time Error as being another perpendicular axis of time. We call it "5D" movement, but really there is an additional dimension to time as well - The End of Time.

So there is an X, a Y, and a Z axis of time. Time is three dimensional in the Chronoverse just as space is. The normal timeline occupies axis X, the EoT occupies axis Y, and Time Error occupies axis Z. In this way all three are perpendicular to each other, and any amount of time spent in the timeline or the EoT results in an amount of time spent in Time Error.

Well 2D time is fine, but 3D time will take me a second to grasp lol so this is a bit over my head at the moment.
Knowing that, I hope my following concern isn't stupid.   

How would time travel to a perpendicular axis even make sense?  How could you do it?

In order for Chrono to move along his OWN axis of time (4D), we require 1 perpendicular axis of time.

No problem: Time Error

What would Chrono need to jump to and move along a perpendicular axis of time?

Problem 1:  What reference point would exist between each perpendicular axis to make travelling to a specific "point" possible?   Travelling to a different axis of time should make you appear at every point on that timeline.  Gaspar and Crono obviously do not appear at the same time, so some reference point would need to exist for this model to work.

Problem 2: This reference point could not be Time Error because TE only covers changes to the axis one dimension below itself.  5D creates order to changes in 4D.   When Crono makes these changes to 4D he is moving back and forth along a line,  a 2D time change to 1D time.   BUT, with movements between the normal timeline and the EoT axis, Crono would need an axis of time to cover 2D time travel. Which means that it would be a 3D change to 2D time...... 

So what am I saying?      Changes to the normal timeline would be measured in Time Error - changes to the EoT timeline would be measured by Time Error as well, but its own version of it (otherwise it wouldn't make any sense, I think).   So we would need an even higher dimension of time to measure the changes made between the two axis of time.   headache   

Because travelling to the EoT is crossing over to a perpendicular axis,  saying Time Error alone would cover the "distance" problem between axes is like saying that Time Error would measure the changes made to...Time Error.  This is wrong because a 6Th axis would be required to measure such changes.

So, the 3D time model  X (normal timeline)  Y (end of time) and Z (time error) works fine except that  Z isn't time error at all,   its Time Error Error.      Time Error measure the respective changes made to X and Y, not changes between the perpendicular axes.

But ^ that is only if the EoT runs on its own perpendicular axis of time, I'm not convinced quite yet...

[placidchap]

Alright, I think I went off in a completely different direction with this.  Firstly though, let me clarify that I was using Time Error to refer to the time equivalent of a y-axis, nothing more (I’ll stop referring to TE).  Secondly I think I was mixing and matching some terms which was probably confusing.

So to try and clarify, the y-axis of time will now be Y and the x-axis of time will be X.  A timeline will be the function of those axes, which results in a flow of time.  I will use “normal time” and “EoT time” to describe their distinctive timelines.  This whole thing is me trying to understand and explain why Gaspar experiences time at the EoT and can see all of the events unfold on the normal timeline, it has little to do with explaining the nature of the gates/epoch.  So...

Why do I say there are two time axes?  Because I don’t believe that the EoT timeline is on a directly 100% perpendicular time axis relative to the normal timeline, but I do believe these two timelines are flowing at different rates.  Using the current TE theory of 2-D time, the EoT timeline would be plotted on a (X,Y) time graph as (0,n), since it does not move along the X-axis and the normal timeline would be (n,0) as it does not move on the Y-axis.  If a person (Gaspar) resides on the EoT timeline, he would perceive the normal timeline as unmoving and vice-versa.  Since Gaspar can see the normal timeline flow and see all time eras, this would have me believe that they are not perpendicular and are flowing at different rates.  Chrono eric or myself said what if they are parallel?  Eske said that “nope, that wouldn’t make any sense.”  So going with that being true, if they can’t be perpendicular or parallel, then what is left?  The little diagram that I  posted earlier is a possibility.  They are separate time functions, flowing at different rates in 2-D time.

Using arbitrary numbers, lets say that the normal timeline function is 1:0, so @ 1000AD, the plotted point is (1000,0), which is effectively 1-D time, nothing new.  Assuming now that the EoT timeline runs on 2-D time (with a ratio of 1:2...1 X for every 2 Y), which allows time to flow at the EoT and the ability to watch events unfold on the normal timeline...By the time the EoT timeline reaches the same X value (of 1000AD normal time), the normal timeline X value will be at 2000, which results in Gaspar being able to effectively “see in the future”, as the EoT timeline is flowing at a slower pace in relation to the normal timeline.  The “experience” of time for a person would be the same, as it is kind of like sitting at a desk vs sitting in a car that is moving, you still feel like you are sitting (disregard road noise, vibrations, visual cues etc)

As for the coordinates of the EoT in the game, I am not sure exactly where it is on its timeline; with this model I’d assume at least (1150,-2300), allowing Gaspar to see 2300AD.  I don’t think this interferes with the CC’s notion of Time Error as a means to order out of sequence events though.  So time could be 3-D in the end of it  with event one being (1000,0,0), 2 being (600,0,1), 3 being (1150,-2300,2) etc... or I could just be going mad...


[attachment deleted by admin]

[Eske]

Maybe its the graph... but that model shows the EoT being parallel to the normal timeline- only in the EoT, the equivalent of one year is half of ours.  This only means that Gaspar might age faster, but he would still be parallel to the normal timeline.  If you made it 1:1 ratio, the graph would look exactly the same, and 2300 years would be the minimum requirement for him to see 2300AD.  Maybe that is just me.

In the game, either Lucca or Marle ask Gaspar:  "where are we?"  His reply is: "It is not a question of where, but when: This is the End of Time."

I believe this is supposed to be taken literally - as in, the end of time's progress - not necessarily where time has ceased (because it obviously hasn't and the EoT perpendicular axis idea is flawed).

Here is what I mean:

This is the end of the sentence                                                                        <<<<<
                                                                                                                              ^
This is the end of the sentence I am currently typing.                                                  ^
                                                                           ^   That is the true end.  The above^ was simply the furthest progress I had made at the time.

Again, Japanese name, Farthest Reaches, just saying lol.   


However, I know what you really meant to show (I think) ::  That two full years would pass in the EoT while only 1 year would pass in the normal timeline.  Instead of a graph, a "racing" model would show this better:

--------------------------1yr  NT
--------------------------*------------------------2yr  EoT

^ Looking that that, the EoT is ahead of the NT, so it can look back and compare its own past at point * with the NT's present..... right?

Nope.

This is the issue with comparing two time axes:  you either MUST make them parallel such that different rates of time's progress between the timelines would make an observer in the EoT think that the normal timeline was moving in slow motion   OR   an observer in the NT would think the End of Time was in fast forward.  In the end, you need to have an axis that would compare the two other axes. 

Using the same example from before, we see that 1yr in the NT and 2yrs in the EoT would equal 1unit of the third axis.   So for each "unit" of this axis, 1yr axis X = 2yr axis Y.   That means that Gaspar could never really be "ahead" because his timeline isn't a copy of the NT and his experience of time means nothing when you move between the timelines (because of the 3D time axis).  For this idea to be compatible with the game, one would have to say "When Crono goes to the End of Time, he accesses a parallel time axis and then goes into the future of said axis."  Yikes.

With a perpendicular model, the way the axes experience a defined measurement of time is inconsequential.      In other words,  I could spend a thousand years in Axis Y, time travel to axis X (if you could call it time travelling at all) and I would simply appear at ALL of the points on axis X simultaneously. There is no means of reference between X and Y.  We would again need a THIRD axis to govern this adventure.  Obviously it is still flawed because the axes would appear frozen to one another  -  so Gaspar cannot really see events play out, nor could Spekkio watch his battles.

In conclusion (I guess),  different rates of the flow of time between two axes only creates the illusion that they are neither perpendicular nor parallel  but  in reality, they must be one or the other.

[placidchap]

Unless my High school math has failed me, I thought that parallel was like // not like |/...? With each point being an equal distance from each other... What I was trying to say is (I think I botched the graph a little) that they are both moving forward on the X-axis, however, the EoT is also moving on a Y-axis, effectively slowing down the EoT relative to the progress of the Normal timeline.  Now something I just realized that I have to declare...Time along the X-axis is how you age and experience time, the Y-axis acts like a throttle, to speed up or slow down one timeline relative to another.  Gaspar would age just as he did while at Zeal, as the experience of time on the mind and body is the same, but an observer from one timeline to another would see him as aging more rapidly or less so, depending on which timeline they were viewing from.  So while travelling along the EoT timeline, when you age .5 years, 1 full year has passed on the normal timeline. 
In summary
X-axis, how your age and experience time
Y-axis, acting throttle to speed up or slow down timelines relative to one another
Z-axis, the sequencing of events (TE)

I suppose the Y-axis would be the comparison axis that you mentioned?

[Eske]

If you insist that they are separate timelines, you would need this:


Normal Timeline:

X-axis, Z-axis


EoT timeline:

X-axis, Y-axis, Z-axis

To order movement between the two:  W-axis

What is the W?   Well, Time Error would only cover the sequencing of events on ONE timeline, not both because you can change the past on one timeline and leave the other timeline alone entirely.  That means that when you cross between them, you will still need an even higher order of time to govern the order of those trips:  Time Error Error

Your model makes things complicated to a point that is probably over my head now... but there is still an issue I think:

You are making a 3D time movement from a 2D time axis   to a 3D time axis where your movement is now a 4D move.

So, if they were parallel, you would leave 1000AD NT and go to "1000AD" EoT and that works just fine, but then you would also appear at all points on the EoT's shiny new Y-axis. (I can't even visualize what that would look like haha)

So it would be like this:


             ------------------------------*------------------------  X axis (NT)

             ------------------------------*-----------------------  X axis (EoT)
             l                                     *
             l                                     *
             l                                     *
             l                                     *
             l                                     *
             l                                     *
             l                                     *
             l                                     *
             l                                     *
             l                                     *
             l                                     *
             Y axis (EoT)

According to my understanding, if you travel to a timeline where there is anything "perpendicular" going on, you will appear at all points on that axis.   I honestly don't know how moving from a 2D axis to a 3D axis would translate, maybe chrono eric does  lol

[placidchap]

This is certainly getting hairy...I'm only travelling down this road until my tank is on empty...

Couldn't the Y-axis function as the W-axis?  This would disregard the possibility of changing the EoT timeline, which I think is fine as all gates connect to a “present” EoT location and travel forward with it.
So travelling from 10AD to the EoT (assuming that 10AD is the true “present”), would yield (X,Y,Z):
(10,0,0) to (5,10,0).  Spend 1 unit of time there and return to the normal timeline...(5.5,6,1) to (11,0,1) and then spend 1 more unit of time in the normal timeline, travelling back again to the EoT...(12,0,1) to (6,12,1)...something like that? (no back tracking on the Y-axis) 

Gate to Gate or Epoch use on the normal timeline wouldn’t complicate anything as that is self contained...Gate/Epoch to EoT also wouldn’t complicate anything as they always arrive at the “present” EoT (assumption for this example would mean (1150,2300,0), since X is half of Y and the party can access 2300AD from EoT).  So even if the adventure started in 12kBC (-12k,0,0) and they travel to the EoT, the coordinates for the present EoT are at (1150,2300,0).  This limits the possibility to see far into the future, at least from the EoT.  A gate to gate transfer into the far future would be ok me thinks.

Starting point      (X,Y,Z)                        Time from EoT (assumes that 23AD is the “present”) perspective
10 AD      (10,0,0)                        EoT (11.5,23,0)   

Travel to 6 AD   
6AD      (6,0,0)                        EoT (11.5,23,0)   

Spend 1 year in 6AD
7AD      (7,0,1)                        EoT (12,24,1)      

Return to “present”                  
11AD      (10,0,1)                         EoT (12,24,1)   

Travel to 23AD
23AD      (23,0,1)                        EoT (12,24,1)   

Spend 2 years in 23AD
25AD      (25,0,3)                        EoT (13,26,3)   

Return to “present”
13AD      (10,0,3)                        EoT (13,26,3)