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Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Harle's Fate and Connection to Kid/Schala and the Dragon God/Time Devourer
« on: November 21, 2011, 08:46:51 pm »
There's been a brief look at the connections between Kid & Harle, as well as their connection to the moons, but I'd like to explore that a little further and make some hypothesis about Harle and her relationship to Kid and the Time Devourer, as well as her fate in the game, since I've yet to see anyone investigate past the presumption that she merges with the Dragon God, despite the fact that it's not directly seen. This is also a loose spinoff looking into motives for a connection in the physical similarities between Lavos & the Dragon God (which was my first thread here), but that will become apparent fairly soon. There are a number of hyperlinks in the text that should serve as sources for the information if there're any questions on the details.
After the real Dragon God was originally a singular plasma life-form, which was a living accumulation of the planet's energy that was consumed by the Time Devourer. Because of this, it would presumably have access to Schala's genome to create a daughter-clone in a similar way that Schala did. The fact that the Dragon God's remaining physical avatar is a quasi-entity that it uses to appear in this dimension. The fact that it bears some physical resemblance to Lavos also seems to hint at some sort of crossover of information between the two entities. If the Dragon God's physical avatar resembled Lavos, it would make sense that when it also generated another daughter-entity it would resemble Schala/Kid. What's interesting is that this relationship suggests that Harle and the Dragon God are both a single entity, as well as two individual entities, much like the Time Devourer.
The Dragon God's physical avatar was split into the six individual plasma life-forms (known as Dragons) by FATE in, order to control the Elements. This shows that their natural state is when they're merged. When Chronopolis was temporarily shut down during the magnetic storm, the six Dragons combined to create Harle. Since (given this translation) Harle is then not a broken piece of the full Dragon God like the other six Dragons, she is a unique entity that's separate from the Dragon God, while also being a part of it. She's still considered the "7th" or "Dark Moon Dragon" (a connection to her Japanese name being Tsukuyomi), but Belthasar even refers to her as their child, which makes her innately different than them.
Some proof of this can be seen in the ending "Return of the Downtrodden". The Dragon God wipes out humanity, and (some years) later, Harle is seen in El Nido, eventually flowers at Cape Howl. The dwarves mention that the Dragon God is watching over them, which would suggest that The Dragon God still a complete entity as seen earlier on just as it was when it first merged, even though Harle (the 7th Dragon) is not merged into it.
This also brings up the question as to whether of not Harle would have needed to merge with the Dragon God at all, or once she delivered the Froze Flame to the Dragon God, was she free to do as she pleased as an individual entity. We see her vanishing upwards to deliver the Frozen Flame to the Dragon God, but unlike with the other Dragons, we don't see her merging with them. The most insight comes again from Belthasar's quote, "The seven dragons travelled across time to reunite into a single entity." The phrasing strikes me as odd (though it may just be the translation), because it states definitively that "they travelled" but only states their intention to unite as a single entity, not whether or not it was completed. Harle may not have merged with the Dragon God at all, but rather fled into hiding after delivering the Frozen Flame to Terra Tower. If that was the case, she would likely have stayed away from the party after abandoning them to fulfil her mission, and is emotionally distraught over the Dragon God's goals as well, as we see in the "Return of the Downtrodden" ending.
Essentially it comes down to the question of whether or not Harle appears in "Return of the Downtrodden" because the Dragon God is still alive, or in spite of the fact that it is still alive. ]This is where the text in the game seems to have a bit to offer.
When confronting Kid before she takes the Frozen Flame, Harle says the following,
This is interesting, because it offers up the fact that Harle seems to know the feelings that Kid has, which are also the same feelings that Schala is harboring. This also points to an innate connection between the two involving Schala. When Kid refuses, and Harle is knocked to the ground, the Dragons leave their individual resting places and gather together.
Harle then awakens as they begin to merge together, leaving with the following comment,
This marks the last time that we see Harle, but both her attitude here, as well as a quote from Belthasar about her purpose seems to pain a picture of the Dragon God.
Due to Harle's disposition towards Serge, and the humans in general evident in her above dialogue, as well as her role in "Return of the Downtrodden" it's clear that Harle exists as a foil to the Dragon God's sentiment towards humanity. Any proof of Harle joining with the Dragon God is going to be evident in this attitude, which brings us to the dialogue at Terra Tower. The first, and potentially most disturbing in the text seen as you climb the stairs towards the top of the tower.
Given that this dialogue lacks a direct source, it gives the impression of Harle attempting to communicate to them, as well as her own individuality being overcome into consciousness of the single entity of the Dragon God.
This, to me, is the largest representation of Harle's counterbalance in the Dragon God's persona. This mirrors her sentiments that we see in "Return of the Downtrodden" almost exactly, and seems to be definitive proof that Harle has indeed merged with the Dragon God.
Kid's response to this is,
Which elicits this harsh reply from the Dragon God.
To wrap things up, it's worth making this comparative analogy; Kid/Schala is to the Time Devourer, what Harle is to the Dragon God. Harle and the Dragon God are both quasi-entities that are being projected from the original Dragon God (absorbed by the Time-Devourer) from the DBT. The Dragon God's projection bears subtle physical resemblances to Lavos in the same way that Harle bears subtle physical resemblances to Schala/Kid. Each one also exists as a counterbalance to the other, and is a separate entity while also being part of the whole.
Given this relationship, and all the information above, we should be able to definitively say that Harle merged with the Dragon God, and when defeated, she fell back into the DBT with the Time Devourer. Whether or not any aspect of her was reabsorbed by Schala in the TD, is likely to fall into the same questionable area of whether or not Kid and Schala merge at the end of the game.
Anyhow, hopefully this is fairly clear and accurate, and provides some insight that hasn't been quite so thoroughly investigated before.
X
After the real Dragon God was originally a singular plasma life-form, which was a living accumulation of the planet's energy that was consumed by the Time Devourer. Because of this, it would presumably have access to Schala's genome to create a daughter-clone in a similar way that Schala did. The fact that the Dragon God's remaining physical avatar is a quasi-entity that it uses to appear in this dimension. The fact that it bears some physical resemblance to Lavos also seems to hint at some sort of crossover of information between the two entities. If the Dragon God's physical avatar resembled Lavos, it would make sense that when it also generated another daughter-entity it would resemble Schala/Kid. What's interesting is that this relationship suggests that Harle and the Dragon God are both a single entity, as well as two individual entities, much like the Time Devourer.
The Dragon God's physical avatar was split into the six individual plasma life-forms (known as Dragons) by FATE in, order to control the Elements. This shows that their natural state is when they're merged. When Chronopolis was temporarily shut down during the magnetic storm, the six Dragons combined to create Harle. Since (given this translation) Harle is then not a broken piece of the full Dragon God like the other six Dragons, she is a unique entity that's separate from the Dragon God, while also being a part of it. She's still considered the "7th" or "Dark Moon Dragon" (a connection to her Japanese name being Tsukuyomi), but Belthasar even refers to her as their child, which makes her innately different than them.
Some proof of this can be seen in the ending "Return of the Downtrodden". The Dragon God wipes out humanity, and (some years) later, Harle is seen in El Nido, eventually flowers at Cape Howl. The dwarves mention that the Dragon God is watching over them, which would suggest that The Dragon God still a complete entity as seen earlier on just as it was when it first merged, even though Harle (the 7th Dragon) is not merged into it.
This also brings up the question as to whether of not Harle would have needed to merge with the Dragon God at all, or once she delivered the Froze Flame to the Dragon God, was she free to do as she pleased as an individual entity. We see her vanishing upwards to deliver the Frozen Flame to the Dragon God, but unlike with the other Dragons, we don't see her merging with them. The most insight comes again from Belthasar's quote, "The seven dragons travelled across time to reunite into a single entity." The phrasing strikes me as odd (though it may just be the translation), because it states definitively that "they travelled" but only states their intention to unite as a single entity, not whether or not it was completed. Harle may not have merged with the Dragon God at all, but rather fled into hiding after delivering the Frozen Flame to Terra Tower. If that was the case, she would likely have stayed away from the party after abandoning them to fulfil her mission, and is emotionally distraught over the Dragon God's goals as well, as we see in the "Return of the Downtrodden" ending.
Essentially it comes down to the question of whether or not Harle appears in "Return of the Downtrodden" because the Dragon God is still alive, or in spite of the fact that it is still alive. ]This is where the text in the game seems to have a bit to offer.
When confronting Kid before she takes the Frozen Flame, Harle says the following,
Quote
"NO! Stop. Don't touch it. Kid! I know the feelings you have inside of you. The urge to bring everything to nothing is now stronger than your desire to save everyone. You may want to throw yourself down the cliff to destruction. That's your imperative... But please, Kid... do not drag Serge and the others down into destruction with you."
This is interesting, because it offers up the fact that Harle seems to know the feelings that Kid has, which are also the same feelings that Schala is harboring. This also points to an innate connection between the two involving Schala. When Kid refuses, and Harle is knocked to the ground, the Dragons leave their individual resting places and gather together.
Quote
Water: FATE has fallen, FATE has died!
Fire: Finally, the time has come.
Green: Indeed... The long, endless night shall finally come to and end.
Earth: Now... For mankind...
Black: I shall make you bleed!!!
Sky: Feel a million years of this planet's agony, pain, and suffering...!!!
Harle then awakens as they begin to merge together, leaving with the following comment,
Quote
"I feared it would come to this. I didn't want to have to fight with you if it could be avoided. Goodbye, Serge."
This marks the last time that we see Harle, but both her attitude here, as well as a quote from Belthasar about her purpose seems to pain a picture of the Dragon God.
Quote
"Five brother* stars that correspond to the five colored dragons, ruling like gods over the night skies... One moon that corresponds to the white Sky Dragon, and another darker, daughter moon to counterbalance them."
*The term brother is used, despite the fact that the Dragon's gender is only 3/5ths Male.
Due to Harle's disposition towards Serge, and the humans in general evident in her above dialogue, as well as her role in "Return of the Downtrodden" it's clear that Harle exists as a foil to the Dragon God's sentiment towards humanity. Any proof of Harle joining with the Dragon God is going to be evident in this attitude, which brings us to the dialogue at Terra Tower. The first, and potentially most disturbing in the text seen as you climb the stairs towards the top of the tower.
Quote
"A-ARRGH... HELP... S-STOP IT... KILL ME... WELL COME... Welcome... Humans... Those who know the torment and joy of creation also know the pleasure and pain of destruction. Therefore all that pass through here must be prepared to share the burden that I carry."
Given that this dialogue lacks a direct source, it gives the impression of Harle attempting to communicate to them, as well as her own individuality being overcome into consciousness of the single entity of the Dragon God.
Quote
"In order to survive, all living things in this world fight desperately, and devour those they defeat... Must one kill other living things in order to survive? Must one destroy another world to allow one's own world to continue? The wounded in turn wound and torment those weaker than they themselves are... There are only the killers and the killed... The sinners, who are judged, and the victims that do the judging... What meaning is there to such a world?"
This, to me, is the largest representation of Harle's counterbalance in the Dragon God's persona. This mirrors her sentiments that we see in "Return of the Downtrodden" almost exactly, and seems to be definitive proof that Harle has indeed merged with the Dragon God.
Kid's response to this is,
Quote
(paraphrased) "Whether there's meaning or not, we just keep living. You have no right to deny that."
Which elicits this harsh reply from the Dragon God.
Quote
"I will cleanse this blue planet of you filthy humans once and for all."
(and after its defeat)
"Now I shall truly awaken again... This too is destiny..."
To wrap things up, it's worth making this comparative analogy; Kid/Schala is to the Time Devourer, what Harle is to the Dragon God. Harle and the Dragon God are both quasi-entities that are being projected from the original Dragon God (absorbed by the Time-Devourer) from the DBT. The Dragon God's projection bears subtle physical resemblances to Lavos in the same way that Harle bears subtle physical resemblances to Schala/Kid. Each one also exists as a counterbalance to the other, and is a separate entity while also being part of the whole.
Given this relationship, and all the information above, we should be able to definitively say that Harle merged with the Dragon God, and when defeated, she fell back into the DBT with the Time Devourer. Whether or not any aspect of her was reabsorbed by Schala in the TD, is likely to fall into the same questionable area of whether or not Kid and Schala merge at the end of the game.
Anyhow, hopefully this is fairly clear and accurate, and provides some insight that hasn't been quite so thoroughly investigated before.
X
2
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus/Guile & Schala/Kid
« on: November 21, 2011, 04:06:00 pm »
While there have been a few topic on this matter, I didn't feel as though any of them were the proper tone that I was looking for, so I decided that this would best be addressed through a new topic. I was looking through the text from the ending of Chrono Cross, and something struck me as rather interesting. Here's the full text for reference:
Specifically it was this line that caught my attention:
"It's just that we might not realize
That you are you and I am me..."
While there is a lot of emphasis placed on Kid looking for Serge, and Magus looking for Schala at the end of CC, this line brings up something different. It isn't suggesting that they wouldn't recognize each other, (which would be the largest fear in an attempt to search for one another another time/place), but that they wouldn't recognize themselves. The interesting thing is that both Guile and Kid don't seem to (refuse to) recognize themselves as Magus and Schala during CC. In the the CT-DS ending, Magus is specifically shown suffering amnesia, which seems to suggest a stronger connection between himself and Guile (that's been at varying levels of officiality in Chrono Cross), and Kid and Schala's connection is more explicitly noted. In addition to that Guile and Kid's physical appearances in CC are also different from those of Magus & Schala's in CT, which also fits with the general idea of forgotten/lost self-identity that's being referred to in the final letter.
While I'm not sure if it offers any additional insight, I figured that it was worth mentioning.
X
Quote
Thus, the curtain closes on another tale
An eternity has passed...
Fleeting dreams fade into the distance...
All that is left now
Is me and my memories...
But I'm sure we'll meet again,
Someday, you and I...
Another place, another time,
It's just that we might not realize
That you are you and I am me...
Let us open the door to the great unknown,
Come across another reality,
And live another today...
Even when the story has been told,
Life goes on...
Until we meet again,
Take care of yourself, my friend...
Forever yours,
Schala "Kid" Zeal
Specifically it was this line that caught my attention:
"It's just that we might not realize
That you are you and I am me..."
While there is a lot of emphasis placed on Kid looking for Serge, and Magus looking for Schala at the end of CC, this line brings up something different. It isn't suggesting that they wouldn't recognize each other, (which would be the largest fear in an attempt to search for one another another time/place), but that they wouldn't recognize themselves. The interesting thing is that both Guile and Kid don't seem to (refuse to) recognize themselves as Magus and Schala during CC. In the the CT-DS ending, Magus is specifically shown suffering amnesia, which seems to suggest a stronger connection between himself and Guile (that's been at varying levels of officiality in Chrono Cross), and Kid and Schala's connection is more explicitly noted. In addition to that Guile and Kid's physical appearances in CC are also different from those of Magus & Schala's in CT, which also fits with the general idea of forgotten/lost self-identity that's being referred to in the final letter.
While I'm not sure if it offers any additional insight, I figured that it was worth mentioning.
X
3
Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Lavos' Impact
« on: July 03, 2006, 11:04:11 pm »
I'm aware that this is discussed in some detail on some other areas of the forums, but hopefully this idea will be enough to warrant it's own thread. According to the Encyclopedia, PD-1 is created upon Lavos's landing on the planet. I'm not sure the exact reference in game to confirm that & it would be much appreciated if someone could fill me in on that as it might scrap this whole theory. I'm wondering if it could be possible that PD-1 would have been created upon or immediately prior to impact, shunting him into another dimension, and allowing Lavos to avoid a great deal of damage from the impact. Not to mention that it has time to heal if it did in fact take significant damage upon hittting the planet. This would explain Chrono & company's ability to damage it as well as it being able to withstand seemingly impossible amounts of damage from impact. Perhaps it fired one it's various attacks right before impact to give that extra split second it needed to escape into PD-1. Maybe even shredding a hold into another dimenstion was enough to cause the destrustion to the Reptites...
Anyways, just a bit of theorising, and I wanted to know what the rest of you thought.
X
Anyways, just a bit of theorising, and I wanted to know what the rest of you thought.
X
4
General Discussion / Hello~
« on: March 07, 2006, 03:24:10 am »
I was browsing for Lavos images when I stumbled on this place actually and found that it had D&D discussions about the Tarrasque and Lavos, and stats too (which I had dreamed of making, but never been able to find resources that allowed it), as well as TONS of brilliantly thought out ideas theories and information, images, etc.
ANYways, A little bit about myself - I'm X. I'm a mod over on www.adventchildren.net I also hang out around http://www.wc3campaigns.net/revolution/forums/ for any of you starcraft fans who might know me from there. I LOVE Chrono Trigger, and haven't played through Chrono Cross in a long time, but am considering working through it again soon. Well, that's it! Just a little hello, and I'll see you around.
X
ANYways, A little bit about myself - I'm X. I'm a mod over on www.adventchildren.net I also hang out around http://www.wc3campaigns.net/revolution/forums/ for any of you starcraft fans who might know me from there. I LOVE Chrono Trigger, and haven't played through Chrono Cross in a long time, but am considering working through it again soon. Well, that's it! Just a little hello, and I'll see you around.
X
5
Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Comparison of Lavos and the Dragon God Anatomy/Origin
« on: March 07, 2006, 12:20:52 am »
I was looking at images of them (which are suprisingly difficult to find) and I was noticing that TD (the Dragon God form) bears a rather strong resemblance to CT's Lavos.
Dragon God
.gif)
Lavos
Lavos Spawn
First of all there is the general grey spikey appearance. However there have always been a couple points about Lavos' anatomy that I have been curious about that MAY be cleared up by this.
If you look at the mouth of the Dragon God there's a bluish sphere that's surrounded by a pinkish flesh with darker circles. This is very similiar to Lavos' beak interior
Lavos also has small circles on either side of it's beak (8 total - four small green ones really close on each side in groups of 2. and 4 total red ones 2 each side that are farther out.) The Dragon God Also has several (though fewer) which leads me to believe that these would be the eyes on Lavos. Even the Lavos Spawn has these tiny yellow marks along the same location.
The final form of Lavos/TD in CC looks a lot more like a rock creature than CT's Lavos, it's almost as if Lavos' attributes were split between the two. This brings up a bit of a question about Lavos' origins as well. It may be that Lavos itself is a creature, and the "ultimate being" that it creates inside itself is held inside it, somewhat like a womb. This is the way that Lavos tests all the DNA it gathers to be able to use it to enhance itself. Also in CC's FMV sequence where the Dragon God is created reddish tentacles (I don't know what else to call them) reach out and pull the other dragons together. Lavos has similiar red lines along the sections of his body that are not as heavily covered in spines.
Since the Dragon God was a created being and bears such similiarities, I'd really like to know if Lavos was created in a similiar manner, or if it only holds those traits because it was consumed by TD. The Dragon God's purpose is VERY close to Lavos' as well. The Dragon God being a machine built to control nature itself by manipulating derivate forces of the physical world. And Lavos doing the same thing to become a more powerful entity. The are both sources of Magic on the worlds they are on, and both are most likely cybernitic organisms. This leads me to believe that Lavos was created, and at some point absorbed the genetic information of it's creators before destroying and vacating it's previous world.
There's probably a few facts that I've missed, and some that may be slightly off, but it's something that I'd very much like to discuss, so if anyone has something to input, by all means, post away!
X
Dragon God
Lavos
Lavos Spawn
First of all there is the general grey spikey appearance. However there have always been a couple points about Lavos' anatomy that I have been curious about that MAY be cleared up by this.
If you look at the mouth of the Dragon God there's a bluish sphere that's surrounded by a pinkish flesh with darker circles. This is very similiar to Lavos' beak interior
Lavos also has small circles on either side of it's beak (8 total - four small green ones really close on each side in groups of 2. and 4 total red ones 2 each side that are farther out.) The Dragon God Also has several (though fewer) which leads me to believe that these would be the eyes on Lavos. Even the Lavos Spawn has these tiny yellow marks along the same location.
The final form of Lavos/TD in CC looks a lot more like a rock creature than CT's Lavos, it's almost as if Lavos' attributes were split between the two. This brings up a bit of a question about Lavos' origins as well. It may be that Lavos itself is a creature, and the "ultimate being" that it creates inside itself is held inside it, somewhat like a womb. This is the way that Lavos tests all the DNA it gathers to be able to use it to enhance itself. Also in CC's FMV sequence where the Dragon God is created reddish tentacles (I don't know what else to call them) reach out and pull the other dragons together. Lavos has similiar red lines along the sections of his body that are not as heavily covered in spines.
Since the Dragon God was a created being and bears such similiarities, I'd really like to know if Lavos was created in a similiar manner, or if it only holds those traits because it was consumed by TD. The Dragon God's purpose is VERY close to Lavos' as well. The Dragon God being a machine built to control nature itself by manipulating derivate forces of the physical world. And Lavos doing the same thing to become a more powerful entity. The are both sources of Magic on the worlds they are on, and both are most likely cybernitic organisms. This leads me to believe that Lavos was created, and at some point absorbed the genetic information of it's creators before destroying and vacating it's previous world.
There's probably a few facts that I've missed, and some that may be slightly off, but it's something that I'd very much like to discuss, so if anyone has something to input, by all means, post away!
X
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