Author Topic: Fuck Sexism  (Read 98815 times)

ZaichikArky

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #90 on: July 08, 2009, 01:20:18 am »
Quote
I actually did this once in high school after the emotionally jarring experience of seeing someone enter a seizure, and remaining to make sure the seizing person's back and neck were straight, etc (it was one of those situations where I got to do something I saw on the Discovery Channel, yay!). I was quite frankly surprised at how well a good male friend of mine sort of talked me through the emotional and psychological aftermath of that event. And you know what? I left the experience with an astounding amount of respect for my friend, without losing any sense of my own masculinity or heterosexuality.

Good for you! Yeah... it seems like girls can talk to guys about their emotional problems all the time and guys will be nurturing and supportive, but when it comes to guys talking to other guys, it just hardly ever happens. I'm not really sure why that's the case, but I think it would be great if men realized that other men could help them with their "problems" other than it being "GHEY"...


KebreI

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #91 on: July 08, 2009, 01:25:40 am »
I have never had a problem talking the other guys about anything, not even emotional topics of any sort.

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #92 on: July 08, 2009, 01:38:10 am »
Yeah, jeeze, look at the forums. Mostly guys. We talk about a wide range of topics and, though the Compendium may or may not be an exception on the interwebs, are pretty supportive of one another...

ZaichikArky

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #93 on: July 08, 2009, 01:51:23 am »
Yeah, jeeze, look at the forums. Mostly guys. We talk about a wide range of topics and, though the Compendium may or may not be an exception on the interwebs, are pretty supportive of one another...

The forums and real life are not the same thing. These forums are not very different from other forums on the internet, in that context. However, if you compare the forums and some other community like... high school or college or something, they are vastly different.

KebreI

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #94 on: July 08, 2009, 01:54:54 am »
Pet peeve, how is this not real life? Your talking to people still? your pressing keys, this isn't a dream. It isn't any less real then the phone.

ZaichikArky

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #95 on: July 08, 2009, 02:12:48 am »
Pet peeve, how is this not real life? Your talking to people still? your pressing keys, this isn't a dream. It isn't any less real then the phone.

God, I could go on and on about just that topic.

I have always viewed forums and real life differently. I frequent forums partially because I'm lonely and I like to talk to other people who share interests with me. Typing things out on a forum is not the same thing as having a conversation with a person or a group of people in a room. Hell, if I had it my way, I would have everyone here be nearby and meet all of you all the time instead of typing away. But maybe that's just me.

I've met people IRL who I first met on forums, and they don't act any differently than they portray themselves on forums/instant messenger, however the medium of communication changes so you learn a whole lot more about them.

I used to view internet friends and RL friends seperately. I'm not so sure if I do anymore, but when I talk about my online friends now, I generally try to use "friends" rather than "internet friend" or "online friend". Friends are friends no matter what... that is something I try to tell myself. However, a friend whom I've never met is not the same as a friend whom I've met. I guess it's just different experiences you share with people. People who know me IRL do not know how I feel about many topics where I express myself here. They're all a part of who I am, but through all the years I've been online, the two worlds just seem vastly different to me.

You can't honestly tell me that if the people who participated in just this thread ( I don't know, it's been about 10 of us?) would have a conversation even vaguely similar to this if it were in person? First of all, just being beside real people would put up a lot of inhibitions in most of us. Even Z, would he say all that shit to Truth's face about how he truly feels about a very important part of Truth's life? Even if he would do that in a similar manner as he typed here, I would think he was a prick, and so would most of us. Typing takes a lot of the humanity out of an equation. It's that simple.

KebreI

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #96 on: July 08, 2009, 02:20:30 am »
You can't honestly tell me that if the people who participated in just this thread ( I don't know, it's been about 10 of us?) would have a conversation even vaguely similar to this if it were in person? First of all, just being beside real people would put up a lot of inhibitions in most of us. Even Z, would he say all that shit to Truth's face about how he truly feels about a very important part of Truth's life? Even if he would do that in a similar manner as he typed here, I would think he was a prick, and so would most of us. Typing takes a lot of the humanity out of an equation. It's that simple.
Yes I act roughly the same, why because in both cases it me. I have many time met "internet friends" and I behave just the same, as did he. Do I think all of us act like this in person? I don't know its dependent on the person. That doesn't get rid of the fact that this is just as real, people all too often hid behind the false virtualness. I think PAX will be a good test to see if your right though.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #97 on: July 08, 2009, 02:22:11 am »
I would have handled it a little differently, and probably have written off that person quicker in real life. I don't go around raising hell, but neither do I let opportunities slip for challenging some ignorant belief or correcting some insensitive comment.

This is what I consider the flip, positive side of male feminism. One of my friends decries how being feminist for her is the equivalent of announcing, "hey, look at me! I'm a man-hating dyke who doesn't shave or wear a bra because I consider these rules of man-pigs. I'm unloved and insecure and ugly, so I became a feminist! Roar!" But I don't have to deal with that. I can stroll in and humiliate other men by "playing for the other team" and eliminate their shallow idea of like-minded privilege. I have access to different avenues of expression and powers of impact.

Samopoznanie

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #98 on: July 08, 2009, 02:30:32 am »
Pet peeve, how is this not real life? Your talking to people still? your pressing keys, this isn't a dream. It isn't any less real then the phone.
The internet is not 'real life', it's a break from real life. And you're not talking to people, you're writing to them, which makes a big difference.

It's very rare that you come off the same way in speech as you do on paper, or in typed words. And it's much easier to bullshit or play yourself up to be someone / something that you're not, online, due largely to the lack of tone of voice. The aural factor has a definite psychological effect. Not to mention the lack of a face or complexion. As well, when you're just sitting at home, typing up these long, drawn-out soapbox posts, you have a wealth of luxuries available to you, among them:

- you have all the time you need to put your thoughts into words;

- you have the ability to just hit up Google or Wikipedia if you don't have an answer or fact for something;

- you can go back and hit 'edit' if you realize you're mistaken, before folks notice your errors;

- you aren't bogged down by the volume / shouting factor ('cause let's be honest, by this point in a phone discussion, someone would've lost it by now), which tends to drown out reasonable debate;

- you can avoid hurt feelings or real grudges by just closing your web browser;

- if you're completely stumped in a debate or argument, you can just post an image or emoticon and say LOL in place of real commentary;

- finally, you have no need for patience or restraint online, as the posts will always be there and you can reply whenever you like. Because face it, after all the insults, condescension and beating a dead horse that we've seen in this thread, one of the parties involved would have simply hung up the phone - whether out of frustration, or the realization that they're exhausting the number of minutes that they have in their monthly plan.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #99 on: July 08, 2009, 02:39:00 am »
Friends are friends, online or off. What's different online is that it's so much harder to read people's tone, and, as has been pointed out, people can be more aggressive online--although it comes down to the individual person. I've made friends online that I later met in real life, and there are definitely some differences, mainly in the form of me learning that I had misread their tone all those years. However, in no way does this diminish in my mind the value or worth of online friendships. And time spent online is not a "break" from real life, but simply another setting for it. There's no meaningful distinction, although I think it'll take a generational shift for people to realize this en masse.

As for the bit about male feminists...we're all on the same team here. Anyone working for sexual equality is an ally and welcome, as far as I'm concerned.

KebreI

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #100 on: July 08, 2009, 02:55:02 am »
Pet peeve, how is this not real life? Your talking to people still? your pressing keys, this isn't a dream. It isn't any less real then the phone.
The internet is not 'real life', it's a break from real life. And you're not talking to people, you're writing to them, which makes a big difference.

It's very rare that you come off the same way in speech as you do on paper, or in typed words. And it's much easier to bullshit or play yourself up to be someone / something that you're not, online, due largely to the lack of tone of voice. The aural factor has a definite psychological effect. Not to mention the lack of a face or complexion. As well, when you're just sitting at home, typing up these long, drawn-out soapbox posts, you have a wealth of luxuries available to you, among them:

- you have all the time you need to put your thoughts into words;
Most of what I saw is spontainuos, but not all. And thats true in person I will at times not say a word just because I want to phrase it right.

Quote
- you have the ability to just hit up Google or Wikipedia if you don't have an answer or fact for something;
I alway lose intrest in the post at that point, just as I would in a face to face discussion.

Quote
- you can go back and hit 'edit' if you realize you're mistaken, before folks notice your errors;
over 90% of them are gramatical or spelling errors though.

Quote
- you aren't bogged down by the volume / shouting factor ('cause let's be honest, by this point in a phone discussion, someone would've lost it by now), which tends to drown out reasonable debate;
It really shows your lack of conviction then.

Quote
- you can avoid hurt feelings or real grudges by just closing your web browser;
Or walking away.

Quote
- if you're completely stumped in a debate or argument, you can just post an image or emoticon and say LOL in place of real commentary;
LOL is pronounced Lawl.

Quote
- finally, you have no need for patience or restraint online, as the posts will always be there and you can reply whenever you like. Because face it, after all the insults, condescension and beating a dead horse that we've seen in this thread, one of the parties involved would have simply hung up the phone - whether out of frustration, or the realization that they're exhausting the number of minutes that they have in their monthly plan.
Once again that is just someones lack of conviction. I don't behave 100% as I do online but the only reason I don't is because I have actual trouble raising my voice to be that loud. So some of the time where I join in on moments of Passion, are slightly exaggerated but it is me none the less.

Shee

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #101 on: July 08, 2009, 04:11:43 am »
When it comes to debates like these, I can admit that I like to find the middle of the fence and wedge it ever so firmly up my ass and try to please everyone with some comic relief.  I do like to be liked...CAN be a fault of mine, but this particular post is not about my numerous faults.  I also hate these opening disclaimers, kind of a "please don't call me stupid even if what I write is stupid..."  Anyway, here are my cents for the Thought Pot.

Sexism is easy, right?  It's bad, mmkay?

To look at sexism, at least in this country and on a surface level, you don't have to go too far past slang for someone who has sex frequently.

Female:  slut, whore, dirty this and that etc etc etc

Male:  pimp, player, mack etc etc etc

But why the difference?  You just don't hear "man-whore" tossed around all that much.  Especially in the last century alone, women have made massive strides...comparatviely to where they were before.  But there's still work to be done, and always more questions arise and more heads butt.  How do we fare worldwide?  Is that even relevant?  At first it seems like an obvious "YES IT'S RELEVANT YOU IDIOT!" but should it necessarily be comparative to the rest of the world?  In other words, is it a world culture or national culture that needs changing?  A world one I say, but it would have to be done differently in various parts of the world.  Hope that made enough sense.

As for abortion, trickier waters.  I was raised Catholic, and am not well versed in other religions so I'm not going to speak for or against them.  I am not a practicing Catholic these days...more out of apathy and laziness then some sort of religious or anti-religious epiphany.  Sure as I grew older I questioned MANY things, and still do.  I can admit to being part of that "brainwashing" type deal where there is an acceptance of my religion as the end-all be-all for all questions.  My general feeling on religion currently is, and has been for some time now, is that it is a good thing.  A good thing that has been warped by the enormus imperfections that are humans.  Catholics don't condone birth control/abortion because the sole purpose of sex (in Catholic religion) is for a married couple to procreate.  So there was never a need for birth control or abortion...why else would you be having sex anyway?  But on the flip side ( the ol' two way streets...), there are tons of Catholics who don't follow those rules.  Only marital sex and only when we want to have children?  Sheeeeit, pardner.  Flip it again and if you're having sex with anyone and everyone, then you're a fucking animal, male or female.  Sorry if that's blatantly obvious, just didn't really see that sticking out anywhere.

Getting back to abortion, I had gotten plenty of the "Abortion is The greatest evil" talk growing up and bought it.  I do really like what Z said, along the lines of it's possible to discuss a fetus without discussing God or religion.  I like that because I think both sides miss that point at times.  BUT I still have questions...

how many rights DOES that fetus have?  Are those rights relevant to the matter at hand?  For example, there's been some talk about having an abortion to keep one's career or life on the track it currently is.....now is this fair to the unborn baby?

WHAT IF THAT UNBORN BABY WAS YOU!!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Sorry for being SO lame, as that argument is drawn out and exaggerated and misused so many ways it makes my head spin.  But I think there is some merit to it, right?  Please understand that these are honest questions, not poking at either side here.  My tendencies lean towards pro-life, but I'm not going to stop a single woman from getting an abortion if she had thought it through, had discussed with her partner etc etc etc...I'm not going to stand outside of a clinic and block doorways while shouting at the women calling them baby-murderers.

Does that mean I lack convictions for my beliefs?  Do I not have beliefs anymore?  Or am I simply showing some compassion and not being a complete and obstinate asshole?  How much flex should there be or not be???

Before I moved to Los Angeles, I was involved with someone who I just shouldn't have been with for at least 30 bazillion reasons.  I gave in to the carnal stuff.  She eventually thought she might be pregnant.  Now, I want to have children of my own one day.  Very much so.  Not that day.  Or today, for that matter.  Not ready for a million different reasons.  Neither of us considered abortion, but there was that definite fear of losing the momentum, of forfeiting moving across the country to pursue my dreams, going back to the earlier question.....which is right?  Is it even about right or wrong at that point?  Again, what I mean is does the fetus have any rights in that situation, or is it entirely up to us?  If its going to grow up in a terrible situation, if it's a product of rape, then I can't say I feel any hatred whatsoever towards anyone who gets an abortion.  (She ended up not being pregnant.  I can admit that relief is not even the beginning of what I felt.)

But what if it's the product of the "fucking animal" I discussed earlier?  I suppose that they have the same rights, don't they?  But it leaves a bad tate in my mouth.  Not that I'm such an aweosme guy all the time.  The relationship in the last paragraph I brought up was some of the most adulterous, lustful, gross, shady things I've ever been a part of and if I was thinking with more that what was in my pants at the time I would have avoided muuuuch pain.  Did we end up sharing more than sex with one another?  Of course!  Much more!  But that started it all, and those consequences arose.  And when those consquences arose, I felt like abortion was some sort of "easy way out" for us, and she shared that sentiment.

I feel like I really just asked a bunch of questions here...but they were my thoughts.

As far as internet life and real life...what it is is what it is for you.  And only you.

Thought

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #102 on: July 08, 2009, 12:44:02 pm »
I've wanted to dislike you from the moment you showed up on these forums, but I never could.

It's my raw sex appeal.

Jewish traumatically mutilate male babies.

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on surgical treatments for polydactylism?

Religion should be tossed out with yesterday's garbage, not solicited as an opiate for the masses so someone can build a less rebellious empire.

Meh, any empire built around religion as an opiate will quickly fall anywho, as the founders are morons. Religion is a terribly ineffective opiate; it disrupts the daily routine of life, causing people to be more aware of the world and thus more likely to be driven to change it. If one wishes to suppress rebellion, it is far more effective and easier to simply keep people busy with mindless work; doesn’t matter if this is subsistence living, such as in the middle ages, or if this is office work, as in today. Any institution that even suggests that people should have one day a week of rest is counter-productive to suppressing rebellion.

"Whoa, this scenery is REALLY beautiful...therefore, God exists."

I see you're still lacking the passion to obtain absolute victory, Z.

Quote from: Biologos Foundation

While it is true that the fine-tuning of the Universe adds credence to belief in a creator, such recent scientific findings could hardly be called upon as the basis or justification of the long history of theistic belief ... Instead, fine-tuning can be understood as a feature of the universe that is accordant with belief in a creator... although these pointers to God should encourage one to consider God’s existence, they must not be placed at the foundation of faith.

In other words, "whoa, this scenery is REALLY beautiful... which is what I'd expect if God exists, but it doesn't confirm such a belief."

I would not want to date a guy who didn't treat me differently just because I was a woman.

What if he didn't treat you differently because you were a woman, BUT he treated you differently because he liked you and was attempting to show affection through action? Likewise, what if he didn't pay for dinner because you’re a woman and wouldn't have a job to provide funds to pay for yourself, but rather he paid because the very idea of spending a meal with you makes it seem like he's rich?

The reason behind the action is often more important than the action. I hold doors for both men and women as a sign that I acknowledge their existence. Someone else might hold doors for women not to respect them but because that person perceives women as individuals incapable of properly caring for themselves. We both hold doors for women, but I'd argue that one is undesirably sexist and the other is not.

And you know what? I left the experience with an astounding amount of respect for my friend, without losing any sense of my own masculinity or heterosexuality.

I am reminded of a quote from C.S. Lewis that goes something along the lines of "when I became an adult, I put away childish things, including the fear of appearing childish." In the same way, it might be said that when one becomes a man, one puts away emasculate things, including the fear of appearing emasculate."

The forums and real life are not the same thing.

Quite true. Forums give us anonymity and time, two things that one necessarily doesn't have in person. To use myself as an example; I'm much bolder on the forum than I would be if you met me in person. In person, around people I'm not familiar with, I'm shy, soft spoken, and reserved. Once I get to know people, I'm far more gregarious (more like I behave here). The anonymity of the internet for some reason eliminates that original shy stage.

There is that other element, though. The internet gives us time. You are quite right that this discussion wouldn't have occurred as it has in person, largely in part because we wouldn't have the time to think as we do here. I addressed something you said by quoting you, but in real life I might have never gotten the chance to say anything as the flow of the conversation would have carried us away too quickly.

Truthordeal

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #103 on: July 08, 2009, 01:06:32 pm »
Shee, if its any consolation, I use the word man-whore frequently, because I think it sounds funny.

Secondly, I had a circumcision when I was a baby, more for health and sanitary reasons than religious ones. I don't consider myself mutilated, and a lot of women think that a circumcised male is more pleasurable.  

And, to put minds at ease on the religious debate, some words from our leader:

"the days of science taking a back seat to ideology are over. Our progress as a nation – and our values as a nation – are rooted in free and open inquiry."
-Barack Obama.

America is indeed turning more secular. Whether 'tis good or bad our generation will see in due time.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 01:40:03 pm by Truthordeal »

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #104 on: July 08, 2009, 04:18:56 pm »
Wow, just did a bit of research on male feminism, and the discussion happening in these comments on Feministing.com is really fascinating, because it's like every possible angle and argument is covered.

That's quite a bit of food for thought (haha, missed a pun opportunity there). For Zaich and the other ladies here, I hope I and some others here didn't seem to be "invading" the cause of gender equality (intentionally or unintentionally) or speaking for you and other women; that is a most valid concern and that is most certainly not the intent. Rather, people of all genders, races, and social positions should take an interest in what the elimination of patriarchy means for them and the repercussions societal progression will have for their particular, unique cases.

Why should men be vocal on feminist issues and gender equality? Precisely to welcome fellow men into the progression of humanism and morality, and avoid warped responses to the feminist cause like the one posted by this frustrated feminist. There's always going to be a ton of friction within the feminist community, as with any human community; there's already friction between white feminists and black feminists; between black feminists and Asian feminists; between Western feminists and third world feminists; between heterosexual feminists and homosexual feminists; so there's sure as heck going to be some friction when men want to join in too and expand the community.

Perhaps the greatest expressions of feminism amongst men are the kind that are done on the quiet and subliminally, so as not to draw attention to the feminist's particular gender, racial, or cultural identity and therefore stir up discord within a movement that desperately needs solidarity (IMHO). That's why James Cameron is my personal hero. He doesn't run around at feminist rallies with a megaphone or hold up one end of a "Fuck Sexism" banner at the head of feminist marches; he writes and directs movies like Aliens and Titanic that just get the message across to millions of viewers, without him or his white maleness anywhere visibly onscreen.

So, those of us who are vocal on women's issues and happen to be men automatically incur some cost to our credibility on the mere basis of our gender. Such is life; if any of this post's readers is a man and flirting with the idea of identifying as a feminist, don't let some of the attitudes within even the feminist community dissuade you or make you feel devalued. Barack Obama is able to combat partriarchalism and androcentrism just as well as Hillary Clinton could have, to the benefit of our society as a whole. Now let's gear up and bust down some sexist mores!

EDIT:
Quote from: Thought
What if he didn't treat you differently because you were a woman, BUT he treated you differently because he liked you and was attempting to show affection through action? Likewise, what if he didn't pay for dinner because you’re a woman and wouldn't have a job to provide funds to pay for yourself, but rather he paid because the very idea of spending a meal with you makes it seem like he's rich?

The reason behind the action is often more important than the action. I hold doors for both men and women as a sign that I acknowledge their existence. Someone else might hold doors for women not to respect them but because that person perceives women as individuals incapable of properly caring for themselves. We both hold doors for women, but I'd argue that one is undesirably sexist and the other is not.

Pretty awesome stuff all around Thought. I find the idea of "acknowledging the other's existence" really interesting; sometimes in this fast-paced, high-stress society we focus so much on our own issues, deadlines, schedules, etc., that we rush around from one place to another without really communicating with the people around us in any meaningful way. A couple days ago a fellow grad student walked up to me in class for no other purpose than to just say hi; and I was like, "whoa...that's different." But why should it be weird? Maybe we should all take time out to go out on a limb and do something crazy like that. I've always viewed opening doors for people, saying "bless you" when someone sneezes (even though it's medically nonsensical...I think?) as ways of establishing a human connection on-the-cheap and in a more socially acceptable way.


Quote from: Shee
I am not a practicing Catholic these days...more out of apathy and laziness then some sort of religious or anti-religious epiphany.
Hahaa, there's so many of us "derelict" Catholics that the religion is seemingly becoming synonymous with it. It's probably a sign that the religion needs to get with the times far quicker than its current organization allows, and extirpate the chaff from the wheat. The Catholic Church is not likely to survive in the developed West, at least, if it tries to wait for Vatican IV, V, and VI. Change needs to flow continuously.

There are number of canonical practices that I simply don't agree with, Confession being the primary offender in my case (with regard to what's expected of the parishioner, anyway). I mean, jeez, are we that sinful and inhuman that we honestly need to rake ourselves over the coals in front of an old dude? But Confession could still be a psychological help for some people who need it; it could be viewed as free psychiatry if the priest sitting in that confessional is skilled enough.

But I still love Communion, and that's what's drawn me to services every now and then and made them spiritually and psychologically beneficial to me. Now, in my weird semi-anarchic interpretation of Christianity, Jesus represents the forces that question authority and reveal the fundamental inner godhood of human beings. Perhaps there is absolutely nothing to support that in the canonical interpretation of the Old and New Testaments (I've found my religious philosophy shaped far more by Cornell West in recent years), but there's something wonderful about the symbolic act of taking in the substance of someone I interpret as a great revolutionary figure. I just can't divorce myself from such an experience, and as long as I believe in a God or something comparable to it on logical grounds, I find it best to do what I can within this limited and flawed human institution, and contribute to its moral betterment.

The notion that a specific aspect of a religion rather than the underlying teachings would either attract someone to it or keep someone interested enough to identify with it may be strange, sacreligious, and shallow all at the same time, but I can begin to understand where Simone Weil was coming from when she began to flirt with religion on the basis of hearing Gregorian chant.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 05:28:24 pm by FaustWolf »