Author Topic: The $%*! frustration thread  (Read 484556 times)

Truthordeal

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4470 on: November 05, 2009, 02:25:38 am »
I prefer legislation more than anything on the matter of social issues, however I have a special disdain for judicial activism. If that makes me a bigot in RD's universe, then, well, that can't be helped. It doesn't make much difference anyway, because the use of the word bigot has lost all meaning.

I realize that I may as well attempt to swallow steel than defend my point in this, but I would be remiss if I didn't even try.

You cannot force social change on an unwilling populace. Brown v. Board of Education, for all of the things it did right, did practically nothing until Eisenhower forced the Little Rock schools to accept black students by use of the national guard. A lot of people like to credit the changes in the 1960's to the work of the Warren Court, but Earl Warren didn't contribute much after the Brown decision. It was legislation under the Kennedy and Johnson administrations, and even the Nixon administration(it was Tricky Dick that coined the phrase "affirmative action"), that pushed for that equality.

Moreover, I support the legislature over the judiciary because there are more of them, giving a failsafe against the wrong kind of change. Direct democracy has its flaws as well, but I'd rather there be people who are affected by the change making the decision than 9 justices making that decision for the millions of others.

Zeality pointed out that there was some legislative precedent on the in re Marriages decision(the decision that overturned the ban on gay marriage). I have no interest in diving into a legal brief at the moment and using my infinitesimal knowledge of Constitutional law to decipher it, so I'll await the source from Andrew Sullivan.

In all honesty, I can't wait for the day when this is moot. Eventually people will make the right decisions, but until then I trust our legislatures over our judiciary to dispense social justice.

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4471 on: November 05, 2009, 02:58:39 am »
I prefer legislation more than anything on the matter of social issues, however I have a special disdain for judicial activism. If that makes me a bigot in RD's universe, then, well, that can't be helped. It doesn't make much difference anyway, because the use of the word bigot has lost all meaning.

You're a bit of a mystery to me, Truthordeal. In your posts that respond to mine, it seems like you either only skimmed, or didn't comprehend what I posted. For example, in this post, you posit the absurd notion that I think views on which branch of the federal government should deal with social issues. This is particularly absurd given that I have explicitly made clear why I consider you a bigot, and it has nothing to do with the balance of powers.

You're asserting that the word bigot has lost all meaning. This seems a continuation of your prior, ridiculous line of reasoning, which was that I didn't have the knowledge to discuss various topics because I used words which you found to have emotional weight to express what those words mean. The word still has the same meaning, and it still applies the same to the people it applied to before.

Here's the mystery though. Despite all of the communicative and logical misfires that go on, clearly something is getting through. Look at this:

In all honesty, I can't wait for the day when this is moot. Eventually people will make the right decisions, but until then I trust our legislatures over our judiciary to dispense social justice.

There's a part of you that wants a better world for gays. Better than the world you, through your derogatory use of the term gay, continue to put forward. Beneath that, there's something in you that realizes that there's something better than that; for you and for gays. I think that is part of why I made my last post. There's some hope that it's getting through to something.

KebreI

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4472 on: November 05, 2009, 04:38:59 am »
Why is it that every gay person I met prefer the term gay, to homosexual. Yet gay, is still considered derogatory? Same for black people being called black, not African-American.

Sajainta

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4473 on: November 05, 2009, 12:08:15 pm »
Why is it that every gay person I met prefer the term gay, to homosexual. Yet gay, is still considered derogatory? Same for black people being called black, not African-American.

I think RD was referring to using the word "gay" as a synonym for something that is annoying or stupid or pathetic--not the word being used to describe someone who is homosexual.

GenesisOne

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4474 on: November 05, 2009, 01:54:34 pm »

To me, the debate of SSM goes beyond the politics and the elections.  It goes to the level of biological basis, wherein a lot of LGBT claim is the origin of their sexual orientation.

We all tend to take our heterosexuality for granted as if it just happens. But it seems to develop slowly and steadily and to consolidate over about two decades - through clearly defined and documented stages. Psychologists are in broad agreement about the general stages of heterosexual development and unanimous about one thing: heterosexual orientation is not genetically determined. They will say it is overwhelmingly learned; the result of response to the environment. Most will also say genetics has a part to play, but only a very minor one. Homosexuals in contrast frequently show a breakdown in several of the developmental stages leading to heterosexuality, particularly attachment to and gender identification with the same sex parent and positive connection with same sex peers, leading to needs for same sex affection and affirmation that become eroticized. Once the pattern of sexual gratification of these needs starts, a habit begins, becomes ingrained, and often addictive. Rates of male sexual abuse are higher in homosexuals and lesbians than in heterosexuals. If heterosexuality is learned, then homosexuality is too.

--Excerpt from "Are heterosexuals born that way?" as found on the following link.

http://www.mygenes.co.nz/download.htm

Very interesting read.  Hope you get as much out of it as I did.

Thought

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4475 on: November 05, 2009, 02:02:12 pm »
Maine, at least, isn't as bad as in California. This was just a veto by the people; the legislature can go right back and implement gay marriage again. In the meantime, hopefully the homosexual community will focus on awakening the conscience of the common individual. People opposing same-sex marriage are seldom what you might call “informed”; in the words of Carmine Falcone, "you always fear what you don't understand." If we work on getting people to understand, that will decrease fear and allow change to go forward. We need us some good ol' fashioned sit-ins, I tells ya.

*groan* Thses Catholic bastards need to be burned on their own fucking crosses.

Ooo, can you wear a tall white pointy hat while you do that? That would be lovely, thanks.

We all tend to take our heterosexuality for granted as if it just happens.

Red Herring!

Let us imagine, for a moment, that homosexuality is a purely conscious choice. So what? How does that choice justify discriminating against them? Goths choose to be Goth, yes? Should they be prevented from marrying other Goths?

And on the opposite, let us imagine that homosexuality is purely genetic. So what? How does a natural state preclude the possibility of external limitations? People who wear glasses didn't choose to have bad eye-sight, but we still require that they get corrective lenses if they want a driver's licenses. Of course, we generally have no problem with those shifty left-handed peoples... So perhaps genetics must be weighed against potential risk to society. If I drive without my glasses, there is a good chance my poor vision will hurt someone, and therefore society has the right to demand that I conform to a norm that I simply don’t have the genes for. But does homosexuality hurt the rest of society in such a way that a similar demand can be made upon them?

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4476 on: November 05, 2009, 02:26:23 pm »
Why is it that every gay person I met prefer the term gay, to homosexual. Yet gay, is still considered derogatory? Same for black people being called black, not African-American.

I think RD was referring to using the word "gay" as a synonym for something that is annoying or stupid or pathetic--not the word being used to describe someone who is homosexual.

This is correct.

Uboa

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4477 on: November 05, 2009, 03:03:17 pm »

To me, the debate of SSM goes beyond the politics and the elections.  It goes to the level of biological basis, wherein a lot of LGBT claim is the origin of their sexual orientation.

We all tend to take our heterosexuality for granted as if it just happens. But it seems to develop slowly and steadily and to consolidate over about two decades - through clearly defined and documented stages. Psychologists are in broad agreement about the general stages of heterosexual development and unanimous about one thing: heterosexual orientation is not genetically determined. They will say it is overwhelmingly learned; the result of response to the environment. Most will also say genetics has a part to play, but only a very minor one. Homosexuals in contrast frequently show a breakdown in several of the developmental stages leading to heterosexuality, particularly attachment to and gender identification with the same sex parent and positive connection with same sex peers, leading to needs for same sex affection and affirmation that become eroticized. Once the pattern of sexual gratification of these needs starts, a habit begins, becomes ingrained, and often addictive. Rates of male sexual abuse are higher in homosexuals and lesbians than in heterosexuals. If heterosexuality is learned, then homosexuality is too.

--Excerpt from "Are heterosexuals born that way?" as found on the following link.

http://www.mygenes.co.nz/download.htm

Very interesting read.  Hope you get as much out of it as I did.


Essentially, what you are conveying by posting a link to the book My Genes Made Me Do It is that homosexuals can (and probably should)  train themselves to adopt the preferred orientation, so that they will then be able to be afforded the rights of heterosexuals.  (Because then they'll be heterosexuals!)  Baloney.  Alright, so what if "environmental factors" play a huge role in the development of homosexual tendencies?  So what if not everybody is "born that way"?  Does this make it fair that some people should have to go against their arduous lifelong human development and alter their tastes in romantic partners?  Genetically based or not, that kind of preference -- be it homosexual or heterosexual, or more generally for tall or short partners, cute or serious partners, assertive or passive partners -- is almost impossible to change, not to mention hellish to deny.  

Would it be fair for a heterosexual man who was raised in part by an abusive aunt, who just happened to be tall and assertive/dominant, to have to marry a tall and dominating woman because, say, his family wants him to marry into money?  Especially if he's already in love with a short, meek, and fun-loving partner?  I give this example, because the romantic ideal of the man within it has likely been influenced by environmental factors.  If it isn't fair that heterosexuals should have to choose a more "ideal" partner in the eyes of their family over one which circumstance has made more attractive to them, then how is it fair that homosexuals should have to undergo the same ordeal in order to have a more ideal partner in the eyes of the law?  

Quote
Rates of male sexual abuse are higher in homosexuals and lesbians than in heterosexuals.

Rates of male sexual abuse are higher among lesbians???  Edit:  Oh, I see, you are referring to developmental factors here, not domestic abuse within the lesbian population.

In that case, I wonder how anybody could think it fair that a woman, who has been altered so dramatically by abuse at the hands of men, should have to do something which she sees as a threat to her well-being, i.e. enter into a relationship with another man?  If she wants to get married, that is...
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 03:10:36 pm by Uboa »

FaustWolf

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4478 on: November 05, 2009, 03:09:37 pm »
Ha, I love the Goth example, that's a good one.

Although Genesis' post has some undertones I would question (the focus of the post being on gays, Genesis' post makes it seem like homosexuals are sex addicts -- but if the post contained a symmetrical discussion he might also make the point that heterosexuals are equally addicted to sex), that's a fantastic point of discussion, and one I actually haven't heard before. That all sexual behavior could be a strictly socially conditioned thing is kind of scary from an anti-porn feminist's viewpoint for reasons I've explained elsewhere. By the same token, perhaps we could eliminate pregnancy altogether by successfully eroticizing things that don't get people pregnant. And then rely on birth pods for the continuation of our species.

But Genesis, what do you make of brain studies that show a correlation between brain structure and same/opposite sex preference? I suppose it's possible our brain structure could be influenced by what we're exposed to in life, but it still seems to me there is a non-negligible innate element at work. I would normally bring up the argument about dolphins, bonobos, giraffes, geese, and other animals engaging in homosexual behavior but I would have to concede that animals also being social, perhaps it's possible that their sexuality is a function of their own internal animal culture.

In any case, if heterosexuality and homosexuality come from the same source, then there should be no argument for discrimination; or at least there should be equal discrimination against heterosexuals and homosexuals (for example, outlawing straight marriage). I admire that Genesis is tackling this from the position that homosexuality and heterosexuality are identically sourced.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 03:17:02 pm by FaustWolf »

Uboa

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4479 on: November 05, 2009, 04:13:04 pm »
Not to, um, derail this or anything, but I can think of a couple personal frustrations that warrant a vent.  With today's Amazon shipment I have four interesting looking and untouched books in my possession, but I've been unable to read due to lack of free time for the past month or so.  And, the rest of this week is pretty much booked solid by project work.  I also just missed a free cooking class at the lodge near my house where they were going to teach the attendees how make tamales.  Considering the tamale factor, this counts as at least a double frustration, if not a triple.

Thought

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4480 on: November 05, 2009, 04:21:02 pm »
I'm frustrated that I have to tell people not to perjure themselves. This really should be common sense.

skylark

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4481 on: November 05, 2009, 06:17:56 pm »
To Thought: What I meant was all these bigots in the church who feel they need to oppress gays and (want to) burn them at the stake should have a taste of their own medicine. I was going for a poetic justice angle, but I guess I sounded too angry for the message to be clear. My bad.

GenesisOne

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4482 on: November 06, 2009, 03:32:37 pm »

Yeah, skylark, um, about burning gays at the stake...

How you view the bigots in the church today are equivalent to how society viewed black people in the early 20th century; a gross caricature that has no place in a debate.

Truthordeal

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4483 on: November 06, 2009, 03:52:27 pm »

Yeah, skylark, um, about burning gays at the stake...

How you view the bigots in the church today are equivalent to how society viewed black people in the early 20th century; a gross caricature that has no place in a debate.

Now now, we've all had our reactions to various upsetting news stories and personal events that could hardly be considered academic. Most of us are clear headed enough to not advocate burning people at the stake, but in fits of passion you can hardly be expected to be clear headed.

EDIT: I've seen this in V's ravatar, can someone tell me what it is from?

« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 04:11:05 pm by Truthordeal »

ZombieBucky

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4484 on: November 06, 2009, 04:28:22 pm »
that would be white ninja. he is a ninja. in white.
my hands hurt.
is that a valid frustration?