Author Topic: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)  (Read 138173 times)

ZealKnight

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #210 on: December 01, 2008, 11:09:43 pm »
It's not impossible that he can enter and leave the Vortex, maybe he already took a look around 1000 AD

If that were true he could have done a lot more, unless he were to stupid to think of anything.

We have no idea what happened to him after he fell into that portal. He could have been lost for days, only recently finding his way, and then sensing the presence of the three that had humiliated him so many times, so he went to try and kill them again, but naturally failed, etc etc so he raises an army and kills off their kingdom instead

So what do you think happened? Dalton figured out how the distortion worked and found his way to kill Crono, Marle, and Lucca? And I wonder if Dalton actually overthrew Porre and took over.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #211 on: December 01, 2008, 11:18:16 pm »
Crono and Marle weren't killed in the Fall of Guardia. Since it's questionable whether the team even visited the Darkness Beyond Time or the Dimensional Vortices, they probably didn't know about Dalton until he had already begun his preparations. He might have used the vortices to change history to make things more favorable for Porre, or he might have simply showed up and yes, in five years, used his military command acumen and knowledge of magic to ready a force that could burn Guardia to the ground.

art_garfunkel

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #212 on: December 02, 2008, 12:44:57 am »
Crono and Marle weren't killed in the Fall of Guardia. Since it's questionable whether the team even visited the Darkness Beyond Time or the Dimensional Vortices, they probably didn't know about Dalton until he had already begun his preparations. He might have used the vortices to change history to make things more favorable for Porre, or he might have simply showed up and yes, in five years, used his military command acumen and knowledge of magic to ready a force that could burn Guardia to the ground.
It is fairly clear that Schala erases the party's minds concerning the events between the defeat of Lavos and the return to 1000 AD. Since they encounter Dalton between, its not a stretch to assume that their memories of Dalton's speech were erased too.

The Black Wind

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #213 on: December 02, 2008, 03:32:39 am »
Alright, I'm going to have a shot at deciphering this mysterious turn of events myself, starting with Eclipse Magus.

Who is Eclipse Magus? Where did he come from? Is he from the future, or an alternate dimension?

This is one of the most debated questions thus far, and one of the reasons for this is that most people haven't tried beating the game without recruiting Magus yet (which is understandable, as it's so fucking tempting).

However, I was able to keep another save file handy for this exact purpose, and I can tell you that the same events happen even if you've killed Magus. This is supported by his dialogue both in English and in Japanese in which he says that he doesn't know if he's from your future. But it is quite clear that he defeated Lavos with Crono and his party, thus he is the Magus that left the party during the standard ending (#1). Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that his origins are completely up to the player's performance: if you opted not to fight him and obtained the standard ending, congratulations. You have encountered Future Magus. Otherwise, he is clearly from another dimension, and this is the dimension that is carried on into Chrono Cross. The fact that Magus acknowledges infinite possibilities and thus, infinite dimensions confirms that the #2-12 endings in the game are indeed existent in their own right...but nothing that you need to trouble yourself with because the sequel is based on the canon endings #1 and #13.

I notice one of you is insisting that he could have created another group for this purpose, but why muddle the plot like that? You're only overcomplicating matters. There's no evidence supporting this, anyway. The reason for the Prophet disguise is to make it clear to the player that he is not the same Magus that they've encountered. If by some chance I left him out of my party when I went to Time's Eclipse, if Eclipse Magus didn't have robe on I probably would've assumed right away that my Magus got a headstart.

Did the party truly encounter Dream Devourer and Eclipse Magus, or was that a plot device?

My only response to that is, "Does it matter?" They had no effect whatsoever on the outcome anyway. I'd like to consider the possibilities that they did and didn't witness the events that transpired, as they're both explicable. However, I'm leaning more towards the possibility that they did witness the battle, because should you perish at the hands of Dream Devourer, you still get the "FUTURE REFUSED TO CHANGE" cutscene.

Party never witnessed it: Kato is displaying to us that Magus surviving is the canon ending, and that this is what happens to him after his departure. Try as we might to stop Dream Devourer, this is the way of things as already seen in Chrono Cross, and there's nothing we can do about it. The party being there is merely symbolizing the player being able to see the events after 13 years of wondering what happened. We get our answer, and nothing more. Schala sends us away, effectively saying, "Show's over, folks! You want to save me, then boot up the sequel and use the Chrono Cross, don't bother leveling up...not that there are levels in CC anyway."

Party witnessed it: Another interpretation of the events to come is that the "Entity" really wasn't at rest after Lavos's defeat because of the events in motion surrounding Schala becoming the Dream Devourer. With the fall of Guardia (and thus, the deaths of Crono, Marle, and Lucca) imminent, the planet -- or rather, all of time and space -- is facing extinction. So, the Entity creates the dimensional vortices to warn our party of the impending events, thus empowering Crono, Marle, and Lucca and finding out Dalton's plans.

With the heroes's strengths at their absolute peak, the Entity believes they can battle the Dream Devourer. Crono's party arrives and saves Eclipse Magus, buying him enough time to recover, despite him not wanting them there. Once he recovers, he sees that the party has failed as well, and saves them from being destroyed. Perhaps there's a part of Magus that does care for them? Or, maybe he just doesn't want them to get killed because if they're from his past it could negate the defeat of Lavos and he wouldn't want that. Either way, Schala regains herself momentarily. Accepting her fate, she first removes Crono's party as they've seen enough, and erases their memories of the dimensional vortices so that they won't "dwell on this" and defeat Lavos as they would have anyway. I like this possibility because in saving Magus from being outright killed by the Dream Devourer, it's possible that the party is responsible for the birth of Kid, as it could have been this moment that Schala decided to create her, and the birth of Guile, if it turns out that he is indeed an amnesiac Magus. Although, that would sound a lot more appealing to me if Guile had a more prominent role in Chrono Cross...
 
Regardless of whether the party saw it or not, Magus, following his defeat by Dream Devourer, is soon being tormented by the same despair that seeped into Schala's heart when she wished for everything to be erased (probably also because of Lavos's influence). She got her wish, and Magus got his -- once he entertains the notion of erasing everything that he is and leaving something new behind, that's exactly what happens. It was most likely Schala that granted this during her brief moment of clarity, as well. It could be because of this that Frog regains his human form, as well.

Anyway, I think I'm done here. There's my interpretation of all this.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 03:49:18 am by The Black Wind »

Shadow D. Darkman

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #214 on: December 02, 2008, 08:50:13 am »
I'm also leaning toward the possibility that the party DID witness the Dream Devourer event and did attempt to defeat it and free Schala. They failed, got their memories wiped, and was sent back so that they could continue determinedly to defeat Lavos. IMO the "corrupted" side of Schala did this so that the Time Devourer's existence was assured, as if Crono's party did "dwell on this" then they might decide that they will have to sacrifice the bright future they'd been working toward for so long in order to prevent the Time Devourer's birth. The reasoning behind this being...

Quote from: Crono and the party's decision to sacrifice the future to prevent the Time Devourer's birth
We can't create a shining future if by doing so we cause the birth of such a destructive monster.

{/seriousthinking}

Whew! Serious thinking makes my head hurt. 8)

KebreI

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #215 on: December 02, 2008, 04:44:05 pm »
This is Chrono Trigger DS Analysis, please move this annoying bickering elsewhere. If you want to rant, then rant away in a rant based thread. Their will be no arguing over whether Chrono Cross is the sequel, it will be whether it was good or bad.

*sigh*...Dark Serge will change your sig.



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Dark Serge

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #216 on: December 02, 2008, 04:52:59 pm »
What? I just found the ultimate picture against Chrono Cross haters. No way in hell I'm removing it.

Yourgingerestfan

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #217 on: December 02, 2008, 05:12:09 pm »
I dont know if this has been said already but maybe the lucca/marle/chrono clones fought in the new dungeon are ....

the party members from when the future wasnt changed and it was destined to be devoured by lavos ?

(oh and the new ending is so sad ......in my oppinon)

Magus22

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #218 on: December 02, 2008, 05:23:37 pm »
Alright, I'm going to have a shot at deciphering this mysterious turn of events myself, starting with Eclipse Magus.

Who is Eclipse Magus? Where did he come from? Is he from the future, or an alternate dimension?

This is one of the most debated questions thus far, and one of the reasons for this is that most people haven't tried beating the game without recruiting Magus yet (which is understandable, as it's so fucking tempting).

However, I was able to keep another save file handy for this exact purpose, and I can tell you that the same events happen even if you've killed Magus. This is supported by his dialogue both in English and in Japanese in which he says that he doesn't know if he's from your future. But it is quite clear that he defeated Lavos with Crono and his party, thus he is the Magus that left the party during the standard ending (#1). Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that his origins are completely up to the player's performance: if you opted not to fight him and obtained the standard ending, congratulations. You have encountered Future Magus. Otherwise, he is clearly from another dimension, and this is the dimension that is carried on into Chrono Cross. The fact that Magus acknowledges infinite possibilities and thus, infinite dimensions confirms that the #2-12 endings in the game are indeed existent in their own right...but nothing that you need to trouble yourself with because the sequel is based on the canon endings #1 and #13.

I notice one of you is insisting that he could have created another group for this purpose, but why muddle the plot like that? You're only overcomplicating matters. There's no evidence supporting this, anyway. The reason for the Prophet disguise is to make it clear to the player that he is not the same Magus that they've encountered. If by some chance I left him out of my party when I went to Time's Eclipse, if Eclipse Magus didn't have robe on I probably would've assumed right away that my Magus got a headstart.

I support the idea. Their are two Magus's, this is factual and it must be established. Could this prophet Magus be past Magus? By past Magus I mean being the REAL Magus at the start of the game. Crono's Mom wakes him up, beautiful day, etc... and STOP. Crono has woken up. Stop right there and let us now take a look into the past without time traveling. We know that Lavos crashed into the Reptite Lair and humans were victorious. Zeal has fallen and the guru's and Janus were thrown into the future (minus Gaspar at the EoT) at the Ocean Palace incident. Janus has arrived several years before 600AD. We know that (now being Magus) he tried to summon Lavos for a confrontation but failed. Was REAL Magus killed then? Or could Lavos had created the same enormous time vortex that sucked Crono and company in (which would come much later in the game as you play) and thrown TRUE Magus to 12,000BC before Crono's encounter with the Magus at his lair in 600AD with Frog and the Masamune restored...? My personal theory is that REAL Magus is the first Janus that was sucked into the dimensional distortion, becoming "Magus" before 600AD and the now "Future" Magus everyone is talking about in the CT DS DBT with Schala and Lavos (or the DD). Here's where my theory loses structure... Could REAL Magus have been the prophet and stuck with Schala until the very end after the guru's and Janus got teleported? The Magus we see in the Eclipse?
 
Regardless of whether the party saw it or not, Magus, following his defeat by Dream Devourer, is soon being tormented by the same despair that seeped into Schala's heart when she wished for everything to be erased (probably also because of Lavos's influence). She got her wish, and Magus got his -- once he entertains the notion of erasing everything that he is and leaving something new behind, that's exactly what happens. It was most likely Schala that granted this during her brief moment of clarity, as well. It could be because of this that Frog regains his human form, as well.

This made me think for a second. If Crono and company DID in fact battle the DD with Schala, (canon that is even though everyone is saying the battle in non-canon) they got zapped and lost, Schala sent them away wiping their memory of that event clean. BUT, could she have used their thoughts up until that point, when she sent them away then, and created the illusions or duplicates (which would be the images of Crono/Marle/Lucca before entering the portal to fight the TD in CC) we see throughout CC and especially before the final boss battle? This is a long shot...

I dont know if this has been said already but maybe the lucca/marle/chrono clones fought in the new dungeon are ....

the party members from when the future wasnt changed and it was destined to be devoured by lavos ?

(oh and the new ending is so sad ......in my oppinon)

Thank you for posting ON-TOPIC :) I had to repost my original message as it was stuck in between off-topic discussion about CC and the thought of someone skipping over it due to useless off-topic banter had crossed my mind.

What do you think about the new ending other than it being sad? Do you believe that this Magus could be the character "Guile" in Chrono Cross?

Yourgingerestfan

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #219 on: December 02, 2008, 05:29:44 pm »
He possibly could be guile ....i imagine that forest to be fionas forest a few years after 1000ad in which he might be found by someone and maybe he gave himself the name guile , possibly heading to el nido after hearing rumours about the frozen flame which might spark in a few memories returning ?

I really dont know lol .

Romana

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #220 on: December 02, 2008, 05:39:08 pm »
What do you think about the new ending other than it being sad? Do you believe that this Magus could be the character "Guile" in Chrono Cross?

I think he probably is, and this is some sort of hook that'll give Kato reason to rewrite some of the plot in Cross. I get the feeling he's had something planned involving Magus in Cross (well, we know he did), so I can't imagine he'd pass up an opportunity to do this. Besides, it'd be interesting to see how Guile is developed into a fully-fledged character.

And think about this... why hint that Magus is Guile at all? I say this indicates Cross is planned. :)

Of course, I'm aware one character isn't going to warrant a Cross remake/port, but it'll be one of the founding factors, right? And I think there's plenty of opportunity to mess with what's already there and make it even better, like they did with CTDS.

I still have to actually see the ending rather than just read summaries of it, though...

Yourgingerestfan

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #221 on: December 02, 2008, 05:46:56 pm »
They might remake it but they wont do away with the extra characters as some people (i for one) actually like them :)

art_garfunkel

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #222 on: December 02, 2008, 05:49:46 pm »
I think he probably is, and this is some sort of hook that'll give Kato reason to rewrite some of the plot in Cross. I get the feeling he's had something planned involving Magus in Cross (well, we know he did), so I can't imagine he'd pass up an opportunity to do this. Besides, it'd be interesting to see how Guile is developed into a fully-fledged character.

And think about this... why hint that Magus is Guile at all? I say this indicates Cross is planned. :)
There is no substantial evidence that Guile is Magus. All the "evidence" is circumstantial. Post-Trigger Magus losing his memory is not hinting that he is Guile, it is simply showing why Magus was not a part of the plot in Cross.

FaustWolf

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #223 on: December 02, 2008, 06:04:24 pm »
Magus22, the idea that we're looking at Past Magus and not Future Magus is extremely refreshing, and given that he's in the Prophet's cloak your theory is pretty damn plausible IMO, barring any Time Bastard concerns that might arise. However, we still need to address the personality difference between Eclipse Magus and the Magus who joins up with Crono & co. The Magus we see in CT is utterly bent on destroying Lavos from the moment he sets foot in Zeal, and if he really, really cared about Schala as much as Eclipse Magus does, I think he would have trashed the Mammon Machine and not simply stood by while Schala collapsed trying to power the damn thing up.

Assuming Eclipse Magus is in fact a Magus who was tossed into Zeal without having met Crono, the following are possibilities:

1.) Magus' defeat at Crono's and Frog's hands somehow hardened his heart, making him blind to his potential to save Schala and continue to focus on revenge instead once he arrived in Zeal.

2.) The "personality change" I've been referring to all along is just a construct of the English translation and was not intended by Kato, and therefore no unseen character development is needed to explain Eclipse Magus' actions.
 
I'm not quite comfortable with either of those explanations. Chrono'99 points out that Magus' dialogue in the Japanese retranslation provided by Arc_Impulse still feels very "Magus-y" in contrast to the way it turned out in the English version, but we've still got the fact that Magus' utter focus right now is on saving Schala, something fanwriters have long supposed yet never before demonstrated in-game. There's also this possibility...

3.) Magus, as the prophet, successfully defeated Lavos in a one-on-one confrontation (such as the one that presumably takes place in What the Prophet Seeks), witnessed the Dream Devourer's resulting creation, and then decided all of a sudden his entire existence hinges on saving Schala.

But that personality turnaround seems just a bit too quick for me as well. There are probably better explanations out there compatible with the "Past Magus origin" theory, I'm just at a mental loss right now.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 06:50:13 pm by FaustWolf »

Shadow D. Darkman

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #224 on: December 02, 2008, 06:28:42 pm »
Assuming Eclipse Magus is in fact a Magus who was tossed into Zeal without having met Crono...

Problem. See below.

Quote from: Eclipse Magus (Japanese version)
Lavos is no longer here. This is a future timespace where Lavos has already been defeated. We destroyed him.

See?

Nice attempt at backpeddling, but you don't just argue with me off topic and then expect me to get back on topic without rebutting your post.

The fact of the matter is that (and this was stated by Kato himself) he didn't include Magus's story in Chrono Cross because of all the other characters in the game. Don't you think putting 30+ unnecessary characters wastes time and resources that could have been used to develop the vital ones? Seriously, in a 3-member party, how many of the other characters did you even use? I wouldn't be surprised if there were some you haven't even touched to this very day. In Chrono Trigger, every character with the exception of Magus had an equal amount of double and triple techs making it impossible to have an "ultimate" party because it was a matter of preference. They were a team, and you really saw it in the way that every single one of them was able to work together and perform combined abilities. This is something that was lacking in Chrono Cross because Square was so focused on adding more and more characters that they were all diminished as a whole. In fact, the only double tech I can even remember from CC was Serge and Glenn's X-Strike, but wait, Glenn wasn't even a mandatory character. That was total bullshit.

(Quoted in entirety as it was impossible to abridge it properly)

Dude, keep CC out of this. It's about CTDS.