Author Topic: The Zealish Language Thread  (Read 2048 times)

Zaperking

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The Zealish Language Thread
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2006, 06:19:27 am »
Indeed. Actually, I think making a Zealian language is a bit over the top. It's a good endevour, but it destroys our own aspects of it. Basically, you can't say that any language in our world is in their world. Latin, Greek etc. I don't think the Japanese version had latin in it either.

Basically, unless we exist in their world, the language that we perseive is only the language that we understand. Hence, Language "L is the same as X, it must be so."

Chrono'99

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« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2006, 07:59:47 am »
Some alphabetical characters do appear on some CT artworks (for example on the Hero Medal, or in some scene in Truce with Mystics attacking), but they are probably random stuff, although it would be nice if those were the same symbols as those used in Dragon Ball (I don't know).

Daniel Krispin

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The Zealish Language Thread
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2006, 03:21:58 pm »
Quote
Too simplistic?

Simplistic is best in this situation. It doesn't need some overblown discussion about it. I'm not trying to throw out attitude, I'm trying to say that all we need is for this to be simplistic.

Kid is saying that the proper grammar of the language needs to be used.

If Kid says that language L is the same as X, it must be so.

The conclusion that the root of the language must be present for the language to exist(see Latin being the origin for most common languages today) is being fairly inclusive to other possibilities.


No, you're wrong there. There is logical discrepancy. If Kid says it to be so, then it means that all the languages are as they are. Thus Latin and French exist. Thus, historically, they must have developed in a similar fashion, and similar empires much have existed. See the dilemma? It, in fact, is by no means inconclusive. It is no less conclusive than dating history based on Radioactive decay, for example. The end exists and, unless there was a contrived and guided effort to have those languages develop, they would not have been as they are if not for those empires. Now, I would be of the mind that to a certain extent historical empires did exist, but that's another issue. What one could say, logically, is that they are simply languages in translation. I was reading... what was it... The Persians, a while back. An old play by Aeschylus. Now, one tranlation uses, when they speak of the old dead king Darius, the term 'Lord'; another uses 'King'; yet another 'Shah'; in original Greek, it is Baal, I think. Now, why these different translations? If we took Shah at face value, what does that mean? It seems like the Persians were a later Iranian people. Now, the translator obviously was wishing to give a feel of the eastern region in doing that, but seeing as it is Baal, the term 'Lord' is the more correct one. But that is, in some regard, not the most relevant point. One can use a translation to convey a certain mood, even if it's not what it actually is. Thus Shah gives it, to our ears, an eastern feel - updating the translation as it were - which Lord does not do. Likewise for Kid's accent, the traces of French... they convey mood and character in translation. They needn't be the original. Is this complicating things? Yes. But that's the nature of this Compendium. And, if you think about it, all of Chrono is just a giant work of fiction and contrived from the imaginations of people. To make something up unneccessarially complicates the real world, actually. The point is, to make up a language for this is no different an endeavour than originally writing the Chrono story in the first place.

Oh, and for the record: Latin isn't the root for that many languages. Only for the Romance lanagues, like Romanian, French, Spanish, etc. Certainly not English: that is something like 95% from its old northern roots. Neither does German hearken to it, and Greek is plainly derived from its own ancestry. Most of those are Indo-European, but not Latin-based.

Quote
CT is not LOTR. there was no language created, because there was no interest in it.

For Tolkien, middle earth evolved as a place in which his languages could thrive, in which the histories of the races who spoke them took place.
Lord of the rings is Linguistic in origin, Chrono trigger is not.

Masato Kato, while being a great creative mind, is not a world renowned Philologist. Tolkien was. You cannot draw such parallels.


Actually, I can very well. What I was saying is that not all times when a name is used is it the 'true' internal name of the story. The idea of linguistics in Chrono Trigger has remained largely unexplored, even by those who originally wrote it. True, they're not Tolkien: Ea and its stories were Tolkein's life-work, as it were, and for imagnative length remains unparalleled by any single-author work. But as it is, one can then seek to explore these unexplored aspects of Chrono Trigger and, yes, because they're fictional, make them up for one's own purposes as well. Tell me, how many of these theories on the Compendium are canon? Does Kato have the first clue what in the heck ZeaLitY is talking about with most of his theories? Yes, Occam's Razor can be used for everything here: we could just ignore the paraoxes, and leave it as it is. But don't ZeaLitY and the others make up theories - of their own invention yet reasonable - that seek to explain these things? This is no different. After all tell me, what's the etymology of the name Dalton? Where does Kajar or Enhasa come from in terms of the Chrono world? If one just holds to it being just as it is, the world loses its internal consistancy. And that sort of consistancy is of paramount importance for fantasy writing. Maybe it's just the writer in me speaking, but the languages cannot just be left apathetically behind when so much of the science of the games is explored. True, it's all just make belief... but so is everything to do with Trigger. And until Kato says something else... why not make do with this? Consider what happened with Star Wars. It's Lucas', to be sure, but think about how many people wrote their own stories - published stories! - for it. He allowed it. Of course, his later movies contradict a bit, but that doesn't make the endeavours of writing those authors went through any less worthwhile. So I'd apply the same thing to Chrono Trigger here.

Quote
Indeed. Actually, I think making a Zealian language is a bit over the top. It's a good endevour, but it destroys our own aspects of it. Basically, you can't say that any language in our world is in their world. Latin, Greek etc. I don't think the Japanese version had latin in it either.

Basically, unless we exist in their world, the language that we perseive is only the language that we understand. Hence, Language "L is the same as X, it must be so."


But how can how that be rationalized alongside certain names like Schala, Kajar, and Enhasa? Honestly, it's no more over the top than CT Symphonic, Crimson Echoes, or any fanfiction. Each is the writer's/musican's etc. spin on certain aspects of the Chrono story. As it is, this is a work of fan artistry. I myself did it once, though only as an intermediary (ie. I used the language for the Zeal one, but was intending to later use for something else, and was crafting it to that end.) The thing is, any fan-work destroys another's own perception of a thing. Sometimes, even the author's own sequels do that. Take Star Wars. Now, that might be George Lucas', but I can tell you, from the old movies, I got the impression that Anakin and the old Jedi Knights were more like vassal-lords, famed fighters and nobility, rather than these mystical police-officers later shown. But, hey, that's what one gets, I suppose.

Honestly, I can't see what makes this any different from a myriad of other fan works. And, to be sure, it is far better done, more thought through, and reasonable, than 98% of fanfiction out there. The letters and and the like he's giving fit with names such as Schala, Janus, Kajar, and Enhasa - he's really doing a good job to convey the feel of the language. He's doing a character analysis on the language, I guess. No different than if someone were to write a story on the character of Magus.

Zaperking

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The Zealish Language Thread
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2006, 06:46:50 pm »
[quote="Daniel Krispin
But how can how that be rationalized alongside certain names like Schala, Kajar, and Enhasa? Honestly, it's no more over the top than CT Symphonic, Crimson Echoes, or any fanfiction. Each is the writer's/musican's etc. spin on certain aspects of the Chrono story. As it is, this is a work of fan artistry. I myself did it once, though only as an intermediary (ie. I used the language for the Zeal one, but was intending to later use for something else, and was crafting it to that end.) The thing is, any fan-work destroys another's own perception of a thing. Sometimes, even the author's own sequels do that. Take Star Wars. Now, that might be George Lucas', but I can tell you, from the old movies, I got the impression that Anakin and the old Jedi Knights were more like vassal-lords, famed fighters and nobility, rather than these mystical police-officers later shown. But, hey, that's what one gets, I suppose.

Honestly, I can't see what makes this any different from a myriad of other fan works. And, to be sure, it is far better done, more thought through, and reasonable, than 98% of fanfiction out there. The letters and and the like he's giving fit with names such as Schala, Janus, Kajar, and Enhasa - he's really doing a good job to convey the feel of the language. He's doing a character analysis on the language, I guess. No different than if someone were to write a story on the character of Magus.[/quote]

In the Japanese version, the names are nearly all puns.... Schala is derived from Sara which means "Princess" "Grace" etc. Janus was "Jaki" Which means bad energy. Magus' had a name that meant Demon King. Dalton wasn't called Dalton, and if you want to get down to the roots of the names, use the japanese version, since Woodsy just translated the names, and took most of the puns out.

Exodus

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The Zealish Language Thread
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2006, 08:31:57 pm »
I really don't find myself caring.

Daniel Krispin

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The Zealish Language Thread
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2006, 10:19:50 pm »
Yes, I've heard they were puns which, quite frankly, are really stupid. From a storytelling point of view, Woosly did a better job than did the original game makers. Janus has far deeper connotations than does Jaki, and far more chance for allusion and character connection, and Zeal is more clever than Jeal ever was (or whatever the original was.) Chrono Trigger is a fun and lighthearted story, but it's no Oedipus Tyrannus or Hamlet. As an old-generation game, it's inherently flawed, in fact, cliched and immature. But its joy lies in how simple it actually is, and how much can therefore be extrapolated from it. And the fact of things are... there are times when even those succeeding original creators can best the originators. How many would say that the stories of the Knights of the Old Republic games best the later writings of Lucas? Or does not, in complexity, Shakespeare outmatch much even amongst the ancient and highly regarded playwrights, whose works he borrowed off of? From what I've heard of the original, Woosly outmatched it. And the point is, just because a simplistic game shows something in simplistic fashion, does not mean it should be taken as simplistic. Chrono Trigger, simply, lacks depth. Perhaps more relevant is what happened to the Greek myths as they entered into theatre. A character such as Odysseus, before a streadfast and enduring hero, became villainous by the time of Euripedes, in order to meet a certain end that Euripedes wished. The artist, therefore, has taken something pre-existing, and run with it, using it as a starting point from which to base another work with other views, maybe. Likewise here. The story, this myth of Crono, might be in origin written by Kato... but that does not mean that another sometime after cannot take it and use aspects of it for their own, or add to it to add depth, and even do better. That's the way with art, otherwise it stagnates.

But the simple point of it is that this is no different than any other fan-work, whether that is fanfiction, Crimson Echoes, or Chrono Symphonic. If you don't care for this for such grounds as you have listed, by reason you should have no care for any works of fanfiction (particularly those that explore characters), nor for Chrono Symphonic (which reinterprets Mitsuda's music), nor yet for Crimson Echoes. The simple fact is that while, yes, the language might be looked at as 'just being the translated one', the characters could thus be said to be no more deep than the game shows; the music could be forever only midi-quality; and there would be no chance for fan-sequels. I really can't see how you can distinguish these.

Okay, and here, I really have to speak of Tolkien. And don't call it irrelevant right away: he was a master storyteller, and knew what he was talking about in regards to story telling, and how to tell a grand invented world. His idea - which he later considered impossible - was to write tales that were detailed in some small parts, sparse in others, leaving room for others with music and art and drama to fill these things in. In other words, he was much wishing others to leap off and fill in his stories. Of course, I think he'd be aghast at the turn fantasy did take (what with the horrid representations of Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs), but nonetheless, that was his intent. One, actually, he considered absurd, apparently for the sheer impossibility of it. Of course, in time, what with the movies and all, it WAS done. The point is, such an artist of literature was he that he knew that others could fill in where he hadn't (which, actually, is by and large quite rare... or at least in parts that seem interesting). As I've mentioned, Lucas did this, too. And look at the grand scope we get from it.

Zaperking

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The Zealish Language Thread
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2006, 03:38:33 am »
Actually, to tell you the truth, I don't like any fanfiction work on the Chrono Trigger series. It actually dissapoints me. No offence to anyone who does it, but I personally like the game. It's deep as it is. You need to think things through and take assumptions to fill in the gaps, and that's what I like so much.

Now, you can't say that Woosly did a better job then Masato Kato and crew. Chrono Trigger was designed for their japanese players, and then was changed by him to make it good for the US players who'd rack in money. Woosly actually created more discreprencies with his translations. A lot of things were not made clear, and just sounded stupid. He did a good job, but don't say that the original as good.
Don't you remember some blunders?
- Schala and Janus being half shiblings
- Saying that Wizards only kept the powers of magic, even though it was "mystics".
- The Flame had to many discreprencies that were not fixed until RD and CC.

Plus, how does it lack depth. If anything, CT's characters seem to lack depth. Such as Crono. God, he's so pathetic. He's just like this underveloped character who just has to kill this powerful beast that everyone is afraid of. The plot was very well developed, and to some, it takes quite a bit of thought before they can put two and two together.
In a way, CC is more complex, and I actually like it more than CT, except that CT has Zeal.

Also, defining a language for Zeal ruins what we got from the experience there. Since Zeal is just magical in all sorts, I think we'd best leave our own ideas to ourselves, except when we share a common love for what we saw in it. Though, I praise the endevor and the work gone into it. I actually like the idea, but otherwise the language should only be perceived by the reader of the version of the game that they are playing.

Also, do realise that CT wasn't designed for 30 year old adults. LOTR was most likely designed for older people. I don't think that making CT to complicated with irrelevant things like language would make kids really want to buy it. Kid's want action and adventure, and that's what brings in the big bucks.

Daniel Krispin

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The Zealish Language Thread
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2006, 04:26:16 am »
Quote from: Zaperking
Actually, to tell you the truth, I don't like any fanfiction work on the Chrono Trigger series. It actually dissapoints me. No offence to anyone who does it, but I personally like the game. It's deep as it is. You need to think things through and take assumptions to fill in the gaps, and that's what I like so much.

Now, you can't say that Woosly did a better job then Masato Kato and crew.


As a writer I can be a critic too and, quite honestly, from what I've heard, I would say that's the case. Tell me, can not a reteller or translator do a better version than the original? Often not, when we are dealing with high literature. No translator will quite capture Oedipus Tyrannus, I've heard said, as it was in Greek (for which I wish to learn that language and read the original); but CT is not high literature. It CAN be improved upon. It was earlier work of Kato's, and just because it's his, doesn't mean he can't do wrong in it. Do you wish me to list what is inherently 'wrong' with old writing of mine? Even if it's purely mine, it can still said to be badly done - and a better writer could have taken it, and done better... even on something that was inherently my own. The same might be said for something like this. Remember, this was earlier work of Kato's. Look, for example, how much it matured in CC (for the most part; there are some issues there, but I think he was under quite the time constrain, which is never good for artistic freedom.)

Quote from: Zaperking

Chrono Trigger was designed for their japanese players, and then was changed by him to make it good for the US players who'd rack in money. Woosly actually created more discreprencies with his translations. A lot of things were not made clear, and just sounded stupid. He did a good job, but don't say that the original as good.
Don't you remember some blunders?
- Schala and Janus being half shiblings
- Saying that Wizards only kept the powers of magic, even though it was "mystics".
- The Flame had to many discreprencies that were not fixed until RD and CC.


I suppose you are a purist in that regard, but I tend to think that that's too extreme. So some thing were missed in translation. Consider how much was off in the LOTR movies. Yet they worked nonetheless, being essentially Jackson's 'translation' of Tolkien. Some things, in fact, he improved upon. Take the design of things. I can guarantee you that the Numenorean armour looks way better in the movies than as Tolkien drew it... and I rather think Tolkien would have agreed.
But about CT.... these are not nearly so stupid, however, as using names like Mayonnaise. There may be slight plot discrepancies, but far as quality in sound, he didn't do a bad job. Better than the original, I'd say, in that he was more clever. From what I've heard of the original, it sounds little deeper in allusion and style than an episode of Inspector Gadget. It's a cartoon put to video game. Now, not to say there were not clever things in it, but much of the mood of the game does not come through the story, but through the music - put down the story itself on paper, and it is rather immature on its own. Woosly, at least, gave it an allusive quality.

Quote from: Zaperking

Plus, how does it lack depth. If anything, CT's characters seem to lack depth.


But that's what I'm talking about. CT. It does lack depth. The story is simple and cliche, and the characters are stock and weak. Now, it works in the representation of a game. But try writing a story of it, in words and after the fashion of literature. One can't. It would come across too immature. There would be no serious literary quality in it. As such, things can be interpolated to fill in the gaps... and language is one of those. It does not depreciate the original - why, that will always be there! - but it enriches it if done well. Personally, I very much dislike Virgil's evil representation of Ulysses - I know Homer's Odysseus far better. But that's not to say that Virgil ruined him in showing him differently, and in adding things to the stories. He added depth to that which might not have had it before.

Quote from: Zaperking

Such as Crono. God, he's so pathetic. He's just like this underveloped character who just has to kill this powerful beast that everyone is afraid of. The plot was very well developed, and to some, it takes quite a bit of thought before they can put two and two together.
In a way, CC is more complex, and I actually like it more than CT, except that CT has Zeal.


Depth and complexity are not the same thing. The Iliad has depth, but is hardly complex. The nature of an epic is a rather simple storyline. To convolute the storyline (say, like what Xenosaga does) does not make something automatically good. The simplest of stories can be the best. Agamemnon, Oedipus Tyrannus, Hamlet, the Iliad, the Aeneid... these are all classics built around simpler storylines than many kids books. Yet they are lastingly deep. The ability of a story to wreak confusion through complexity does not make it good, and often shows an over-reliance on plot-devices.

Quote from: Zaperking

Also, defining a language for Zeal ruins what we got from the experience there. Since Zeal is just magical in all sorts, I think we'd best leave our own ideas to ourselves, except when we share a common love for what we saw in it. Though, I praise the endevor and the work gone into it. I actually like the idea, but otherwise the language should only be perceived by the reader of the version of the game that they are playing.


In that case, almost all of modern fantasy would not exist. Do you know how many messed with Tolkien's Elves, in a horrid way? If people had abided by that sort of thing, I can guarentee you that 95% of modern fantasy would not exist. The genre itself might well not exist. You see, those Elves are inherently part of his world. No different than, say, Zeal might have been. For authors to have done this weird drow and Dark Elf thing to them is no different than such a thing as this. It's worse, in fact, as now the original Elves are all but unknown, and we get this weird modern fantasy rendering of them. Lamentable in my eyes, yet it is a neccessary step in continuing creativity. See what I mean?

Quote from: Zaperking

Also, do realise that CT wasn't designed for 30 year old adults. LOTR was most likely designed for older people. I don't think that making CT to complicated with irrelevant things like language would make kids really want to buy it. Kid's want action and adventure, and that's what brings in the big bucks.


Actually, Lord of the Rings was considered a kid's story. And I wasn't talking Lord of the Rings anyway. I was talking more Silmarillion. That is more adult oriented, it's true, but that's not the point. The point is internal complexity and consistancy. A language is one of the points of setting, and sets the mood as well. To leave it blank as simple English removes a level of realism and complexity from the backdrop of the story, and makes it less believeable.

Anyway, the point is, to make up a language for Zeal does not do Trigger a dis-service in any way. Nor does it even remove any of the feel or magic from it, not if done rightly. A 'George Lucas' should not be pulled, with a new 'Special Addition' being put out with all these things added back in... but seperately, it adds flavour to unexplored aspects.

Post Scriptum

Oh, and in case you haven't noticed, I have a rather certain view when it comes to fantasy writing. But do keep in mind that my premise for defending this is that he appears to be following the feel of the names Woosly gave them. You see, it would be different were he forcing it to something it were not, betraying or at least altering the original to fit his thing, rather than the reverse. That folly is admittedly what I did when I wrote my fanfiction... though that is past me now, and I know the mistake in it, my chief lament for it being that, while it was certainly my style, it did not mesh well with Chrono. That's why I always praise ZeaLitY and Hadriel in their fanfiction writing: they can achieve not only good writing, but after the feel of the game, which is a hard thing. Now, if someone were to be doing what I did... I would counsel them to work to write their own thing, but not make it Chrono, for it would not be that more than in character and name. But in this case, where he is obviously following a similar path... it is admissable and laudable. There is a distinction there. If it follows the same spirit of the original, then it is good. If not, it is not. I think that this endeavour does, so I defend it. Even if it was not intended in origin by the creators, if it follows the same spirit... what harm is there?

Zaperking

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The Zealish Language Thread
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2006, 05:18:39 am »
I see your point.

Oh well, as just as much as I praise him, I guess it's alright for him to do it. It seems good, but I myself am not really getting a feel Oo. Makes Zeal looks really medieval in the writing sence, even though Zeal should be more advanced than the 600th century.

Nice worth. nether the less.

Exodus

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« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2006, 06:36:24 pm »
Okay, look.

I've seen several points brought up, supposedly refuting the idea that X = L.

You cannot disregard it as false.

I'll try once more, and this'll be the last time:

Kid says language L is the language in the game

Language L = Language of country

Therefore, L = X.

It really is that simple.

Daniel Krispin

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The Zealish Language Thread
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2006, 03:28:03 am »
Quote from: Exodus
Okay, look.

I've seen several points brought up, supposedly refuting the idea that X = L.

You cannot disregard it as false.

I'll try once more, and this'll be the last time:

Kid says language L is the language in the game

Language L = Language of country

Therefore, L = X.

It really is that simple.


She doesn't say it, though. All she says is speak proper English. She doesn't say: this is our languge. There is a difference. English could be a term in translation as well. If English is English, that precludes the existance of a tribe called the Angles. Tell me, then, where precisely did they live? If you simple disregard that, it means that the game simply lacks internal consistancy. I'm not willing to let is stand at that and, I suppose, from a scientific viewpoint, neither did ZeaLitY and the rest when they sought to prove CT's scientific rationale. Here is my proof disregarding it or, rather, proving a simplistic view to be wholly paradoxical: English requires the tribe of Angles, who lived in Britain. CT has no Britain as can be seen on the world. Thus, one or the other, or both, is wrong, otherwise we end in a paradox. Now, feel free to sit comfortably in the paradox when playing the game... but the purpose of the Compendium is to remove the paradoxes, and at times it requires stretching one's simplistic comfort zone and interpolating what is simply made less complex. There. I have refuted it, and if you maintain it, you exist in a paradox, which is illogical. Since an = sign is true only by, and is born of, logic, you cannot use it or an equality to prove something true. But the point is, this sort of analysis is what the Compendium is made for. And, beyond all else, this is essentially a fan work. You have still not told me what makes this different than, say, Crimson Echoes.

Exodus

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The Zealish Language Thread
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2006, 07:25:52 am »
I'm gonna have to persist-- L = X.

Tonjevic

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The Zealish Language Thread
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2006, 09:42:54 am »
In a different universe, with a different timeline, an english language could have come up via a different method. An unlikely, but entirely possible, indeed probable (see the infinite universes theory) occurrence.
Just because here there was an Anglo saxon race with a language and the romans came along and modifed it, doesnt mean that it would have had to in a different universe.
In all fairness, Exodus is correct until we find a better theory.

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The Zealish Language Thread
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2006, 02:16:21 pm »
Mind if I move it to Kajar Laboratories, since it is a fan project?

Daniel Krispin

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The Zealish Language Thread
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2006, 06:46:18 pm »
Salvadeiro hasn't replied in a while, but I think that would probably be best, so long as he can still find his thread.