Author Topic: A Reminder  (Read 6852 times)

Truthordeal

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Re: A Reminder
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2009, 09:39:38 pm »
Incest isn't something widely practiced in the Christian community, this brand of child molestation is in Wicca, though.

You've got me with homosexuality, but that's a far cry from prostitution, molestation and sacrificing animals and human beings.

FaustWolf

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Re: A Reminder
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2009, 09:48:06 pm »
Truthordeal, about child molestation in religion: consider that the Prophet Muhammad married Aisha when she was a teeny 12 years old! However, it's not like I've read the Qu'ran from cover to cover, so it could be hadith or even just apocryphal. Nor does this necessarily imply that the marriage was consummated when Aisha was 12. Still, the precedent could be used to dangerous effect, just like the teachings of Wicca that you've cited.

In any case, it seems to me that both Islam and Wicca will have had positive value if their adherents mutually reject the notion of taking advantage of children for sexual pleasure, despite what the texts suggest. Both religions will have had negative value otherwise. While child molestation may not be quite as applicable to Christianity, it seems that other dangerous concepts (killing gays, prostitutes, etc) have been justified on its basis by people who overlook humanism in favor of...something that isn't really even a literal interpretation of the text; a literal interpretation should at least leave people confused, and therefore seeking answers elsewhere. I say this in reference to prositution specifically; it's true that I've seen no example of Jesus sticking up for gay people specifically.
 
This is precisely why I think all sorts of religious texts should be kept around for use in moral schooling, even in atheist schools. They probably belong most in atheist schools -- they've already been producing atheists with some efficiency for years. Atheists will accuse us moderates and liberals of "cherry picking," but picking the right cherries can be a beautiful thing indeed, and a child who can pick the correct cherries based on humanist principles is probably close to passing into moral adulthood.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2009, 09:58:53 pm by FaustWolf »

Romana

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Re: A Reminder
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2009, 10:06:43 pm »
1. When it comes to religion/spirituality, what do you believe, if anything?
I'm atheist and don't believe in any religion, god, etc. Generic answer, but I don't really believe in anything, so...

2. How did you come to believe it?
I had a very half-hearted sort of faith growing up catholic, after a while I found myself often thinking to myself how illogical the concept of "Heaven" was, wondering how all this could be possible, and when I was around... 12 or 13, I decided to go atheist partly due to a friend's beliefs rubbing off on me. I haven't changed my mind about it at all since.

3. Do your parents (or did they when alive) believe the same?
My dad's been atheist for his whole life, my mother's catholic but doesn't go to church. My sister doesn't believe in god either, as far as I'm aware.

Truthordeal

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Re: A Reminder
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2009, 10:24:13 pm »
Indeed, FW. If Wicca were to drop the molestation and Islam were to drop the castration, jihad and...well, I guess molestation, then both of them would be more universally accept. They can be crazy if they want, in my opinion, because I realize that I sound crazy sometimes, but lets not molest children, shall we?

This thread has brought up a question for me though:

Those of you who identify yourselves as atheists/agnostics, what do you think the afterlife entails? Do you believe we have one, or that we rot in the ground for all eternity? Do you believe in Heaven and Hell, or reincarnation? Or do you think its just another plain of existence? Do you just not know and hope to find out?

I've always been rather curious about this. I know where the Christians on the Compendium stand, but what about you guys?

Uboa

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Re: A Reminder
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2009, 10:30:54 pm »
This is precisely why I think all sorts of religious texts should be kept around for use in moral schooling, even in atheist schools. They probably belong most in atheist schools -- they've already been producing atheists with some efficiency for years.

Reading this made me realize that there may be a day in the not to distant future where a lot kids are essentially taught comparative religious studies from an early age.  Unitarians already do this, believe it or not.  They have a version of Sunday school called "Religious Education" in which they teach stories and principles from many of the major religious traditions.  I'm optimistic about this kind of education, because I think that being able to discern the good and bad in the most influential books in human history would be of absolutely incredible value to kids.  If kids can look at something as confusing and powerful as religion with a level head, imagine what other problems they'll feel confident in assessing.

Also, I think that teaching some basic religious moral tenets and stories to youngsters is definitely not a bad idea, so long as they're told to keep an open mind.  Stories from religious traditions have a certain, I can't think of a better word, weight to them, a certain gravity.  That in itself may inspire kids to try to make more sense of moral problems.  It might push them to think a little harder.  Also, stories from religious traditions can often be ridiculously cool, like ancient mythology is cool.  (Inner child speaking here.)  Cool stories inspire kids' imagination, and breakthroughs in moral reasoning often require a little imaginative kick.

ZombieBucky

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Re: A Reminder
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2009, 10:34:16 pm »
what do i think the afterlife entails...?
um.
it doesnt concern me at the moment. when i know for sure ill come back to you.

Uboa

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Re: A Reminder
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2009, 10:35:50 pm »
what do i think the afterlife entails...?
um.
it doesnt concern me at the moment. when i know for sure ill come back to you.

Why do I get the feeling the afterlife will entail braaaaaaaiiiinnnsss... ?

ZaichikArky

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Re: A Reminder
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2009, 10:48:16 pm »
Indeed, FW. If Wicca were to drop the molestation and Islam were to drop the castration, jihad and...well, I guess molestation, then both of them would be more universally accept. They can be crazy if they want, in my opinion, because I realize that I sound crazy sometimes, but lets not molest children, shall we?

This thread has brought up a question for me though:

Those of you who identify yourselves as atheists/agnostics, what do you think the afterlife entails? Do you believe we have one, or that we rot in the ground for all eternity? Do you believe in Heaven and Hell, or reincarnation? Or do you think its just another plain of existence? Do you just not know and hope to find out?

I've always been rather curious about this. I know where the Christians on the Compendium stand, but what about you guys?

I think fringe groups in the religions bring out the most ugliness... Religion is constantly evolving. I guess I think the best we can do is to use the best ideas and principles for the good of humanity.

Interesting question about the afterlife. I like the idea of reincarnation the best. I have always looked at it this way: how far is it that some creatures are born humans and some are born as cows? Or other, less intelligent creatures than humans. But I guess life isn't always fair. I don't really believe in heaven. I don't strongly believe in reincarnation, either, but to me, if I wanted to believe something about the afterlife, reincarnation would be what most resonates with myself and my ideals.

FaustWolf

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Re: A Reminder
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2009, 11:51:07 pm »
Mmm...braiiiiins.

Quote from: Uboa
Also, stories from religious traditions can often be ridiculously cool, like ancient mythology is cool.  (Inner child speaking here.)  Cool stories inspire kids' imagination, and breakthroughs in moral reasoning often require a little imaginative kick.
I think this is one of religion's main draws, psychologically speaking. There's an element of "coolness" that comes into play when Jesus resurrects a dead guy, Muhammad rides a flying camel, or when Crono casts Luminaire. I wonder what the basis is for this human reaction to coolness? Do we secretly desire the power to overcome nature, and receive some vicarious satisfaction from stories of others who have reportedly done so?

Sajainta

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Re: A Reminder
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2009, 12:25:16 am »
Those of you who identify yourselves as atheists/agnostics, what do you think the afterlife entails? Do you believe we have one, or that we rot in the ground for all eternity? Do you believe in Heaven and Hell, or reincarnation? Or do you think its just another plain of existence? Do you just not know and hope to find out?

I've always been rather curious about this. I know where the Christians on the Compendium stand, but what about you guys?

Well, I'm an atheist.  Our bodies rot in graves (if we're buried).  Probably not for all eternity--maybe there will be a nuclear war that will inseminate all the buried bodies.  But "we" don't necessarily rot in the ground because "we" will be dead, and I believe that there is nothingness after death.  I mean...you don't remember a time before you were born, right?  Is there going to really be all that much of a difference once you die?  So that's what I think happens after death.

To be completely honest sometimes I do wish a sort of Heaven existed.  Because I think most people like the thought of a place of eternal joy with no suffering and pain where you can be with those you lost in life.  It seems like a comforting concept.  But I don't believe in it.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 12:27:23 am by Sajainta »

FaustWolf

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Re: A Reminder
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2009, 01:23:57 am »
Does the existence of a God necessitate resurrection/survival after death? And does the lack of a God necessitate no resurrection/survival after death? I'm not sure why the questions of God's existence and life after death shouldn't be considered separately. Perhaps our thoughts and personalities survive as quantum waveforms that will be measured one day, like the elusive graviton.

In any case, I've decided that I'll get my brain frozen toward the end of my life. Consider it an inverse Pascal's wager. And more importantly, an adventure!

EDIT: Shit, $80,000. How horrible is it to allocate eternal life only to those who can afford it? Can you imagine Alcor passing out freebie passes to favored politicians? It'd be like indulgences, except Alcor actually has some power in the way of granting eternal life.

I wonder if President Obama could push this through as part of his universal health care goal...but something tells me Sarah Palin would lead a campaign against frozen braiiiiins.

Well! Queen Zeal was on to something at least.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 01:42:42 am by FaustWolf »

ZeaLitY

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Re: A Reminder
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2009, 01:52:06 am »
Our bodies rot in graves (if we're buried).

For everyone who read that and felt a little pang of terror, is your life such that you even have anything to lose by dying?

In 11th grade, I also read something like that by an atheist, and it scared me. I had been told since childhood that I would be an immortal through an Abrahamic myth, and I had grown accustomed to that security. To think that it might not be so hurt inside, and only made me cling harder to my religion in the short-term.

But those who are scared by statements like that, what do you honestly have to lose? Have you achieved your ambitions? Have you made reality your grand dreams and even petty desires? Have you even lived the present to its fullest, enjoying things like friends and family as much as you can, while you can? For many people, that answer is no, and the only thing they'd have to lose by dying is a mass of gray, lacking meaning, purpose, or clarity. What can even the most active person do, without striving for some goal, or in appreciation of some moment?

Before you fear death, fear not living a full life.




Be in the springtime of youth. Death can wait.

Sajainta

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Re: A Reminder
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2009, 02:00:51 am »
Our bodies rot in graves (if we're buried).

For everyone who read that and felt a little pang of terror, is your life such that you even have anything to lose by dying?

In 11th grade, I also read something like that by an atheist, and it scared me. I had been told since childhood that I would be an immortal through an Abrahamic myth, and I had grown accustomed to that security. To think that it might not be so hurt inside, and only made me cling harder to my religion in the short-term.

But those who are scared by statements like that, what do you honestly have to lose? Have you achieved your ambitions? Have you made reality your grand dreams and even petty desires? Have you even lived the present to its fullest, enjoying things like friends and family as much as you can, while you can? For many people, that answer is no, and the only thing they'd have to lose by dying is a mass of gray, lacking meaning, purpose, or clarity. What can even the most active person do, without striving for some goal, or in appreciation of some moment?

Before you fear death, fear not living a full life.

Be in the springtime of youth. Death can wait.

YES.

Uboa

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Re: A Reminder
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2009, 02:28:58 am »
I think this is one of religion's main draws, psychologically speaking. There's an element of "coolness" that comes into play when Jesus resurrects a dead guy, Muhammad rides a flying camel, or when Crono casts Luminaire. I wonder what the basis is for this human reaction to coolness? Do we secretly desire the power to overcome nature, and receive some vicarious satisfaction from stories of others who have reportedly done so?

Sounds like a million dollar question to me.  Now, excuse me while I crawl out on to this limb over here...

I think that we do have some ingrained desire to overcome nature.  In a very real sense we actually do have the ability to overcome nature, because we're able to engineer ways to protect ourselves from various undesirable aspects of nature.  The presence of our aforementioned ingrained desire makes sense given that actually being able to engineer ourselves out of harmful natural situations is very beneficial to us.  It's what's gotten us this far, and I'm convinced it's the only thing that's going to get us through the next century.

But, our desire to overcome nature is in no way limited to the strictly practical or the physical.  There's an undeniable element of artistry, sublime imagination, and/or alchemical persuasion inherent in this desire.  The instances of "cool" which you listed play on this element of our desire, as do things like elaborate tribal costumes and trance music.  They lift our minds out of the mundane world and into loftier, more ideal worlds.  As to whether or not we receive satisfaction from these kinds of cool, I think that is obvious.  We do.  But I don't think that the satisfaction we get from watching Crono cast Luminaire, or watching Samus hyperbeam the mother brain to a dusty grave, or reading about Magil erupting a foe's head into a ball of flame is merely vicarious.  We connect with our mythological heroes on a very deep level.  We fancy their struggle as our own, and we're empowered by their victory.  If their story is particularly arduous or confounded, we try to relate, to understand.  Essentially, like a house on stilts can keep one out of the mire of a swamp, a good story can keep us out of the mire of the day to day toil.  Sometimes it can remind us of a higher purpose.

That's a bit of a simplified version of the importance of religious or mythological "cool", but you get the idea.  These kinds of sublime/artistic/alchemical pursuits are as deeply woven into humanity as our feats of engineering.  Perhaps, simply, because they helped us to carry on.  Perhaps there's something more to it.  As feats of engineering reveal deep and far aspects of our cosmos, these feats of artistry reveal the deepest aspects of ourselves.  People speculate that scientists may one day find god, or a god.  Creativity and imagination have already yielded humanity a multitude of gods, and in a sense that is perhaps more real to me than others, these are our gods; these representations of the greatest goods, evils, and the deepest hopes and fears of humanity.  We've already established their influence on us; it was given in Faust's question.  How much progress can this kind of influence yield?  Well, with science we do not progress by taking shots in the dark, rather we progress when we approach science with the aim of progressing.  I think we have to understand our gods or mythologies in the same light, approaching them with the aim of progress in the forefront, and then we stand to gain a great deal of self-knowledge and/or understanding of our fascinating and tumultuous species.

utunnels

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Re: A Reminder
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2009, 03:09:43 am »
1. When it comes to religion/spirituality, what do you believe, if anything?
I never thought that deeply.
Few of us are religious, in my whole life I only know one or two who announced that they believe religion so far, and I don't know how strongly they believe in...So I don't say I'm an atheist, I think it is just natural (for anyone who's born in a non-religious family).

2. How did you come to believe it?
Like I said, I think it is natural to believe in or not believe in, due to the society/environment one lives in.

3. Do your parents (or did they when alive) believe the same?
I'm not sure whether my father is atheist. I don't think he believes in god(s), but I recalled he claimed that he saw a ghost when he was a small child. I think that is what is called "fake memory", like many of us has.
As for my mother, I think she's a bit superstitious sometimes, but that never becomes a problem. She's just less educated than father.