On the subject of Nu...

[Kanadyets]

Okay, I'd like to start by offering my apologies in advance if anything if this nature has been discussed previously.  I'm new here (Nu..heh heh) and so far I haven't found the answers to the questions I have in any of the threads regarding Nu, nor in the encyclopedia section, so I thought I would strike up a topic and hopefully generate some analysis.

Since having first played the game, I've been fascinated with the Nu.  They stand apart from other creatures that the party encounters as they will more frequently engage in dialogue and are usually encountered in places of importance to the party, rather than the more mundane battles in which Chrono et al face off with less awe-inspiring foes.  Not to mention that since in his most potent from Spekkio appears as a Nu, they are clearly creatures of some importance and power.

The matter that I'm curious about is really the simple nature of the Nu.  The encyclopedia offers two possible explanations of their origin, but neither seems to satisfy.  On the one hand, the Zeal Creation theory posited by ZeaLitY, doesn't seem to account for the existence of Nu in the Hunting Grounds of 65,000,000 B.C.  On the other hand, the Quiet Species theory doesn't fully explain the complete nature of Belthasar's Nu in 2300 A.D.  While it does suggest that Nu can rather strangely be programmed as one might program a machine, Belthasar's Nu also has a switch to turn the creature off, which would suggest that Nu (or at least Belthasar's Nu) are not organic creatures at all.  Nor does it have any explanation for why the Silver Rock Nu is more eloquent that those found in the Hunting Grounds.

Personally I believe that while neither theory goes far enough in explaining the nature and origins of the Nu, a middle ground between the two may shed more light on the subject.  Notice that the Nu in the Hunting Grounds of 65,000,000 B.C. speak in a primitive fashion, much like their contemporary human counterparts.  This would seem to suggest that they are in an evolutionary stage similar to the humans, and are therefore an organic creature.  The exception in this time period being, of course, the Nu who provides the party with the Silver Rock.  As for Belthasar's Nu, I would suggest that it is an automaton, created by Belthasar in the image of a Nu, for whatever reason.  He seems to have an affinity for the creatures, as his secret room in Enhasa has six of them inside it.  Based on his abilities to construct such wonders as the Blackbird and the Epoch, a robotic Nu would not tax his abilities.

Therefore I would state that while the Nu are in fact a quiet species, there are examples of Nu from the Kingdom of Zeal having been gated to other points in time.  As for the nature of the Silver Rock-bearing Nu in 65,000,000 B.C., it is unclear it he is a construct of Belthasar as well, but as its contact with the party is limited, the matter is of little consequence.  All that one can surmise is that that particular Nu is different from its counterparts in the Hunting Grounds.  As for Belthasar's assitant Nu in 2300 A.D., it probably wasn't gated into that era, but at least the man with the knowledge to construct it was.

So there it is.  That's my theory on the nature of Nu.  Again, I apologize if anyone has already pursued this thread in the past, but I couldn't find anything like it.

Questions?  Comments?  Concerns?  Criticisms?

[maggiekarp]

It's better not to think of such things too hard. Now, head on over to that Record of Fate for your daily brainwashi- er... save! Yes...


...Well, I think that Nus are extremely versatile creatures that can serve many different purposes in a plot. They're adorable, marketable blueberries that can be reprogramed, turned off, and used to win golden shovels when you do a super A-tap (Nuumamonjaa is totally canon shut up). Though that begs the question of why Square doesn't make Nu dolls... guess there's not enough profit in it these days, or ever really

My own theory is that Nus have been around long before humans and will be around long after humans, for no particular reason. They aren't hiding a superior intelligence or anything like that... They're like cockroaches, or maybe dumb luck of evolution.


In any case, that sneak Kato must have had something to do with this.

[Kyoji]

Kanadyets makes some good points, especially with the idea that Belthasar's Nu is nothing more than an automaton designed to look like a Nu. I feel that the idea of Nu lies somewhere in the middle ground of ideas surrounding its creation. I personally believe that Nus were simply a quiet race that developed with the society of humans, indicated by the Nu in the Hunting Grounds 65,000,000 B.C.. It is primitive and rare, probably being one of a small tribe of Nu hidden. However by 12,000 B.C. the number of Nu has grown in numbers, or at least the Nu have become comfortable enough to live with humans (the Enlightened Ones) as helpers.

While the idea of the Nu being a Zeal creation is plausible considering the large number of Nu in the Zeal Kingdom, they continue to act seperately of the Zealians and have their own personalities and desires. It would seem rather silly for Zeal to create a servant machine such as the Nu that is so lazy (reference to the various sleeping Nu on 'guard'). Even moreso is the fact that Nu has a 'scratch point', showing that it enjoys a good scratching like any other creature. I understand that Zeal is an extreme advanced society for its time, but the idea of creating something along the lines of a Realian from Xenosaga seems a little /too/ advanced for Zeal.

After the fall of Zeal it would seem that the number of Nu remaining have dropped to very, very few, as there is only that one left as a shopkeep in the Last Village. What happened to the Nu after this point? The only remaining Nu in the entire game is Belthasar's Nu in 2300 A.D., the Nu in the Blue Pyramid in 1,000 A.D. (and presumably all time before that), and the highly intelligent Nu in 65,000,000 B.C.. First touching on the Nu in the Blue Pyramid, the Pyramid is more than likely the same Pyramid that had floated along with the rest of the Zeal Islands, falling with the rest of Zeal. A Nu is present when Crono and Co. release the barrier, only to disappear shortly after the party chooses an item. While it is completely possible that this Nu was trapped inside the pyramid all this time, I would guess that in truth the Nu was just an artifical image that Zeal used, thus not being a real Nu. Realize that's just my guess.

The second is the Nu in 65,000,000 B.C.. Due to its manner of speech and behavior, plus the fact that it has the Silver Rock, I assume that it was one of the various Nu from the 12,000 B.C. era that was sent to the past during the Ocean Palace Incident. As stated by a few others, it would be very possible that the rocks are items of power crafted by Zeal. This does not explain how the Blue Rock came to be in the Giant's Claw or how the Gold Rock ended up in the Denadoro mountains, but due to the fact that everything in Zeal crashed into the ocean and the land later rose from the watery depths, the contents could have ended up anywhere.

The final Nu is the Nu in 2300 A.D., Belthasar's Nu. If my memory serves correct during the Ocean Palace incident Belthasar is gated to the future, alone, with no Nu. Unless some Nu had survived since 12,000 B.C. and through the day of Lavos, I find it to be very improbable that the Nu that serves Belthasar is an actual living Nu. Due to the fact that he programs him and puts his memories into it, the idea of Belthasar's Nu being simply an automaton makes the most sense.

That's my two cents.

[Altimadark]

Just a quick question, what do you make of the Nu in 600AD, in the Cursed Woods?

[Kanadyets]

It shares many of the features of the Nu in 65,000,000 B.C.  I might suggest that there could have been a branch of Nu existing in those woods independently.  Because of the Nu in the Last Village in 12,000 B.C., we can conclude that the Nu carried on following the fall of Zeal.  Kyoji does state that there is only one Nu left in 12,000 B.C, but remember, based on the scope of the game and the events surrounding the characters, the day-to-day lives and occurances go unnoticed.  There could be several Nu in the Last Village, but only one that we see, just as there's probably more people, but we only see the ones who are important to the story, and a few extras for atmosphere.  Perhaps a tribe/clan/family of Nu carried on their existence in what came to be the Cursed Woods.

[Kyoji]

I completely forgot about the Nu in the cursed woods, silly me. Taking this into account, and as Kanadyets pointed out the scope of the game could mean that the one Nu in 12,000 B.C. could have equaled many. It is strange though that the Nu in 600 A.D. behaves like the 65,000,000 B.C. one instead of being social and living with humans as one might expect. Still, anything is possible. For all we know the Nu in the Cursed Woods could have been another from the Ocean Palace incident and being in a completely new place where he would probably be shunned as a monster of another mystic, due to the war, hid himself away from everyone. Mind you that's pure speculation and the idea of a tribe of Nu surviving on would be more reasonable.

[Kanadyets]

Well, after the whole Zeal experience, it's not unreasonable to expect that some Nu got fed up with humans.  Also, there may well be Nu living outside of Zeal in 12,000 B.C. that, because of their lack of importance to the story, we never see.

[Radox Redux]

I've always viewed Nu's as something much more deeper and meaningful. If you look on the recently updated Nu article, you can see my in put on their meaning. As for their contextual existance, I've always believed them to be slaves of the Entity/planet, acting under, at the very least, a kind of instinctive nature to care for the planet. Throughout the eras of Chrono Trigger we see them rise and fall, almost in synch with the amount of magical power being used by Zeal, keeping in mind that Lavos is the planet's biggest priority.

Don't forget that certain elements of magical power existed even in Prehistoric times, shown as the red rock that becomes the power sauce of the Mammon Machine, however, as stated by Spekkio, magical power in the usable form does not exist in this time, hence the complete rarity of the creatures. They go from nothing to everything inbetween these two eras. As an extension of this, the lack of Nu's in the future (Barring Belthesar's Nu), would be due to that time period representing the planet's death.

I beleive them to be an anomoly and thus uncomparable to any other species.  Belthesar shows that he has various knowledge of the mysterious Nu's, and if Nu's were capable of being some sort of programable creature, then I think he would find a way. Sentances like, "This creature sleeps beyond the flow of time." have a certain weight to them, as well as connotations of death. I beleive Belthesar's Nu to be the last of the species, perhaps kept alive by Belthesar and perhaps the barely-living planet to perform the task that he fulfills in CT, before he is allowed to be switched off and die, at last.

Although Belthesar's Nu seems to be of a mechanical nature, I find it unlikely that it would be fully an imitation of a Nu, since it is involved with the important events sourrounding the Chrono Trigger, which involves Entity related things, such as time-travel, and even time-freezing, so I find it unlikely to be a fully mechanised Nu.

[Kyoji]

Some very interesting points and ideas, Radox Redux. I never thought that the Nu could be a puppet of the Entity, or at least the eyes and ears of the Entity, but it does make some sense. It doesn't fully explain the lack of plentiful Nu in 600 A.D. and 1000 A.D., but that may be due to the fact that at those times things were peaceful (ignoring the Mystic war) and there was nothing that was a real threat to the life of the planet (Unlike Zeal and Lavos).

The Red Rock (Not the dreamstone) that powers the Mammon Machine is the Frozen Flame, part of Lavos' shell, that was discovered in 3,000,000 B.C.. This lead to the advanced developement of the human brain and the ability to use magic among the enlightened ones. Without the Frozen Flame the humans would have developed much slower and would have never discovered magic (or at least it would have taken a /lot/ longer). The Nu never show magic ability as their attacks are physical and show no supernatural abilities (ignoring Belthasar's Nu), thus I do not consider them to be in relation to magic in any way.

Taking Belthasar's various notes and saying on the Nu however, it does seem that they are a species that are unaffected by the flow of time (might explain the Nu in the blue pyramid) and have relations to life itself. All things begin and end with Nu, which might point back to your idea of Nu being a puppet of the Entity/Planet. It is completely possible that the Nu in 2300 A.D. had begun to change to better serve Belthasar and also reflect the changes the planet was taking. It was becoming a desolate, dead place only filled with mechanical beings and the dying mutants and survivors. That seems to be stretching it however, so I'll stand by my idea that Belthasar's Nu was more of an automaton than anything else.

[Kanadyets]

I beleive them to be an anomoly and thus uncomparable to any other species.  Belthesar shows that he has various knowledge of the mysterious Nu's, and if Nu's were capable of being some sort of programable creature, then I think he would find a way. Sentances like, "This creature sleeps beyond the flow of time." have a certain weight to them, as well as connotations of death. I beleive Belthesar's Nu to be the last of the species, perhaps kept alive by Belthesar and perhaps the barely-living planet to perform the task that he fulfills in CT, before he is allowed to be switched off and die, at last.

Although Belthesar's Nu seems to be of a mechanical nature, I find it unlikely that it would be fully an imitation of a Nu, since it is involved with the important events sourrounding the Chrono Trigger, which involves Entity related things, such as time-travel, and even time-freezing, so I find it unlikely to be a fully mechanised Nu.

That's an interesting interpretation of the statement "This creature sleeps beyond the flow of time".  I always considered that statement to be evidence in favour of the fact that the creature is mechanical.  Consider that even in death, humans are still subject to the ravages of time.  This particular creature, however, sleeps beyond the flow.  It seems to simply exist as in inert object now, rather than a functional being.  While one might put forward the suggestion that if it was a mechanical being, one could simply turn it back on, but in the case of this Nu, I would suggest that it was part of Belthasar's cronstruction and programming.  He was brilliant enough to build the Blackbird, the Epoch, and the very dome he's living in, I don't think it's a stretch that he could construct and program such a creature that could be shut down once and for all.

As for this particular Nu being involved with important events regarding the game and the entity, it's completely incidental.  It's only involved insofar as it is Belthasar's assistant.  Even when Belthasar has died, the creature has his final instructions programmed into itself.  I would argue that it is Belthasar who is the one who is important to the team, and this Nu just happens to be there for it, or once Belthasar is gone, simply an intermediary.

[Radox Redux]

Belthesar as an intermediary, is something I concidered, and despite the enigmatic nature of Belthesar, I find it impossible for him to know of the team's eventual arrival. He never even saw any of the team in Zeal and never had the opportunity to do so, before the point when he lives in Keeper's Dome.

I think he could know of the team's arrival simply through the Nu's connections to the planet, but then that would imply that the Nu is, or in the very least, was a real Nu. I suppose the message that plays after you turn the Nu off is vague, but it doesn't make sense to turn the Nu off he was merely a machine. Since it wouldn't matter then.

Belthesar made it's deactivation his final request, both he and the game message refer to the Nu as a creature. Yes, an inability to turn it back, could be due to Belthesar's programming, but there is a lack of motive. Why permanantly deactivate a possible aid to the team? I'm of the opinion that the Nu was a living creature, kept alive beyond the point of his natural death, and to keep him alive any longer than necessary would simply be wrong.

[Kanadyets]

Well, as for Belthasar's knowledge of the team, there are a few possibilities.  One is that his research (since he had nothing with which to occupy his time but matters of science) led him to such a conclusion.  Two is that he could have developed some sort of device that would have allowed him to somehow obtain knowledge of the party beforehand.  Thirdly, before he was gated into the future, I don't think it would have been difficult for him to have picked up some knowledge of the party in 12,000 B.C.  He may not have received any first hand observations of the party's activity, but news travels fast.  It wouldn't take much for him to gather some kind of information.  Lastly, at the point we become introduced to Belthesar, his grip on sanity is slipping.  It's possible that one might infer a knowledge of the party when in fact he is simply ranting and raving or possibly speaking of things as they come about as though he was anticipating such an event.

With regards to shutting off a potential ally for the party not making any sense, it makes perfect sense if we presume it to be mechanical creature.  Once it had served the purposes laid out for it by Belthasar, it couldn't have provided any more assitance to the party.  Perhaps Lucca might have been able to make something out of it, but given the nature of her efforts and current grasp of matters scientific, I think Belthasar's abilities are somewhat beyond her scope.  Besides, even if she could have turned a Nu-bot into something helpful, Belthasar simply asked them to carry out his request, and respectfully, they did.

[Radox Redux]

With regards to shutting off a potential ally for the party not making any sense, it makes perfect sense if we presume it to be mechanical creature. 

Well, I suppose this is just where our opinions differ. Yes, it makes sense for mechanical creature to be able to be turned on and off, but not  to be turned off perminantly. If the Nu was a mere machine, then there would be no reason to perminently disable it. Even if it didn't have a purpose, just a normal 'off' switch would have sufficed in this situation. Perminent disability of the Nu should would only be required, if the Nu was being harshly kept alive for that purpose, in which case you have the morality of the situation as a reason for why it would be perminently turned off. (Killed.)

[Kanadyets]

True enough, from this point it really comes down to the matter of opinion.  Not to mention if we were to follow this stream of thought further, it would expand into difficult questions regarding the nature of manufactured "lifeforms" and their rights, or even if they have any at all.  Not to mention what the creator of said creature is or is not premitted to do or if the artificial lifeform should be considered as a child and therefore ascribed the same rights as a child is.  Anyhow, it's unfortunate that we don't have more opportunities to observe the Nu, although if we did, we wouldn't get so much conversation and debate on that particular subject.  However, it would have been a bit easier to answer some of the questions if the Nu that the party encounters in combat in 65,000,000 B.C. at the Hunting Grounds and in 600 A.D. in the Cursed Woods were a bit more talkative.  I admit it's tough for me to gather evidence for my position when the most talkative Nu are the ones that occur in odd or unlikely circumstances which then raises further questions as to the nature of those Nu in specific.

Lousy developers...they sure didn't make it easy on us to ponder these matters.  Heh.

[Altimadark]

The Red Rock (Not the dreamstone) that powers the Mammon Machine is the Frozen Flame, part of Lavos' shell, that was discovered in 3,000,000 B.C.

Wait, could you clarify that?  I thought the Red Rock was Dreamstone.  I can understand how the Mammon Machine could be a device made of Dreamstone with the Frozen Flame as its power source, but I never thought the Frozen Flame itself was the Red Rock.  Didn't Masa/Gran state that Schala's pendant and the Masamune/Granleon was made of the same red rock as the Mammon Machine?  Wasn't Chrono's group able to get some of the same red rock to repair the Masamune before Lavos fell, and thus before the Frozen Flame?