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16

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?

« on: August 11, 2020, 08:36:56 am »

Ah yes, good point.  In that case, it would explain why she apparently was not pursuing Lynx.  Since Lucca would have died fighting Lavos in 1999 AD, Kid was probably raised by someone else in that case.

She's not pursuing Lynx in Home World because Home World Lynx died with the Dragoons in the Dead Sea. So no word of Lucca's killer on El Nido, she has no reason to go there.

No, Kid was raised by Lucca in both worlds.

But I am still not convinced Kid MUST be in Home World.  It is possible that Lucca dying in 1999 AD would in turn cause changes prior to 1010 AD that were dependent on Lavos being defeated.  A change in the future that affected the past, prior to the split.  Otherwise there would be a paradox that could not be explained.  If Lucca finds Kid in 1004 AD because it was before 1010 AD, but died against Lavos in 1999 AD before said event takes place...well you see the problem.  So the only answer is a butterfly effect where some events prior to the split change due to alternate outcomes that took place in the future, after the split.  The way I see it, this eliminates Lucca from 1004 AD because she never visits that time before defeating Lavos.  So if this would work for her, there is no reason Kid would be any different.

Are you sure she died in 1999AD? Besides, by the rules of CT time travel, the Lucca that finds Kid in 1004AD won't be affected if suddenly something meddles with a past self of hers. More so when that past self is in the future. No matter what happens to Crono and company now, they will still return to 1000AD, the version of them that succeeded and made the time travel back. Read up on Time Traveler's Immunity that the Compendium came up with, it explains it quite well why Lucca would still exist in 1004AD so long there's no further time meddling before 1004AD.

Also, you're using the wrong kind of linear thought. Lucca finding Kid is after she helps defeat Lavos, yes, but that's only in her personal history. For the time line, it happens way before. Therefore, the time line can be altered at any point after 1004AD and there would still be a Lucca, victorious against Lavos, that emerged in 1000AD and finds Kids years later, because it's not 1000AD itself that's being meddled. Only 1999AD.

In fact, the most accepted reason that the bad future returns in Home World is because the split essentially created a new timeline from scratch. Crono and company's time traveling is still bound to Another World. Which means it's more likely there simply was no Crono and company to emerge in 1999AD, since said time travel TO 1999AD wasn't copied.

Lavos does not die in Home World, so there is no fusion with Schala to create the Time Devourer in this timeline.  This was the event that prompted her to make a daughter clone to begin with, so there is no reason to expect she did.  It makes the most sense that due to an alternate outcome from the future, Lucca and Kid are eliminated from the present (in their own way).  Furthermore I do not see TTI playing a role because this is not just a change in history, but an entirely new timeline.  Logic dictates that in this case, this would just be another alteration based on possible outcomes that was caused by a butterfly effect due to a crucial change actually taking place in the future, but had direct influence on another event that would have taken place in the past.

Once again, wrong kind of linearity. Lavos also has the same Time Traveler's Immunity Crono and company have. This is because Lavos wasn't physically within the planet, he was in a sort of pocket dimension. His emergence in 1999AD was him leaving the pocket dimension, which is also a kind of time/dimension travel. Thus, his appearance in 1999AD is protected, as its a past version of him. Said version will still exist, even if his present self is now in the DBT, merged with Schala. Keep in mind that while we call them worlds, Home and Another are more accurate to two intertwined timeline in the same world/dimension. Another should've been discarded to the DBT when Home got created, but that didn't happen. It's an anomaly, but it's still one dimension. So, Time Devourer exists for both. And again, by Time Traveler's Immunity, Kid's entry to 1004AD is protected, no matter what happens to the time line. Maybe if she had been born after the future split, but that didn't happen.

To clarify with an example of the inverse, Dalton would still raise the Porre military to attack Guardia in Home World.  The event that caused him to do so took place before Crono and gang had their final battle with Lavos.  He would have had no way of knowing they were dead, so he would have acted out the same way he did before the split.  The reason Kid and Lucca are affected is because the event that prompts Kid being born in 1004 AD and Lucca finding her takes place in the distant future, long after the split.

Again, wrong kind of linearity. There will be still a Crono, Marle, and Lucca for Dalton to plan his revenge on. So long nothing happens to them before Dalton's own arrival to the timeline, which might've been still in 1000AD, then nothing changes there. And again, Lucca and Kid will still be there, no matter what happens to Lucca's past self in 1999AD, or to Schala.

As for references to Radical Dreamers, they could have carried on without her.  No where did it clarify that Kid was the leader of said gang, nor that she founded it.  So the gang of theives being active on the mainland has no influence over Kid's existence in Home World.  But even if for some reason she was born, she would have had to have been raised by someone other than Lucca.  I suppose there is that quote from Kato that suggests she might be on the mainland, so it is possible.  However that could just be him being ambiguous, which he did A LOT with Chrono Cross.  I just do not see any in world evidence to back it up and considering how Cross ended, there would never be a need to go back and clarify such a comment in a potential sequel.  He could have said pretty much anything and it would have had no impact on future plans he may have had at the time, nor the overall plot in Cross.

No, it was indeed founded by Kid and is the leader. This is explained better in Radical Dreamers (the game), where the group is just her, Magil/Magus, and that world's Serge. Again, there is going to exist a Home World version of Kid since she was inserted into the timeline pre-split, her arrival is an assured thing no matter what happens to the events that led to her creation, and said Home World version just simply doesn't have a reason to go El Nido, hence her non-factor in Cross's story. And the whole Dreamers thing comes form Lucca. She did a similar thing with Nikki which inspired to name his band the Magical Dreamers. It's not a coincidence. Both Kid and Nikki named their groups after Lucca's talk of dreams.

Either way fits into the theory nicely, but I strongly lean toward her not being present at all in Home World.  There is no solid evidence that she is present, and the events that cause her to be born are a clear alteration to the timeline as far as I can tell.  This is all of course, under the assumption that Crono, Marle, and Lucca all die fighting Lavos in 1999 AD in Home World, which is implied to be the case.

So to recap... no, she definitely exists in Home World. Her arrival to the timeline is a protected thing from any past alterations, and since it was pre-split then she was split with the worlds. Same for Lucca's, her arrival back to 1000AD from 1999AD after she beat Lavos is protected. So even if time changed in 1999AD so she dies instead won't affect present Lucca because that happened to a past version of Lucca. Again, it's more likely that the past versions of Crono and company that were meant to arrive to 1999AD to fight Lavos simply... didn't. And as established by CT, what happens to past versions of characters do not affect their present selves.

As for why would there still be a past version of Lavos to emerged in 1999AD? Well, the pocket dimension is its own thing. By it's very name, it's contained within the world, even if it's not physically present. So the pocket dimension gets copied, Lavos still comes out on schedule. Though this last part is just conjecture on my part.

If you want further proof of Kid existing in Home World, Ultimania has this:

https://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/4/42/074-075.jpg

Notice how Kid's Home World status is a dash. This denotes "Exists, but does not appear in the game", when you consider the other characters that have that dash. Characters who we know have to have world counterparts, but we simply don't know what they're up to in the present. It's certainly different from the X that denotes being dead (like the Another versions of Serge and Marge, and the Home version of Direa, for example) or the ? that likely denotes "Fate unknown", though we certainly learn about some of them, like the Home Dragoons. If Kid didn't exist in Home World at the present, she'd have the ?, or even X.

I thought long and hard on the best way to reply, and I agree with a lot of what you are saying.  First let me point out that when I make my theories, I only care about in game evidence.  Anything found in guidebooks (such as ultimania) is taken with a grain of salt, as they are not truely written by the creators.  An example of this is the Legend of Zelda Timeline.  There is a trilogy of books that are considered canon, but the 1st and 3rd book directly contradict eachother (Hyrule Historia and Hyrule Encyclopedia).  The placement of one of the games (Link's Awakening) is changed as well as the description of other games (Majora's Mask for example) has changed as well.  They are written by the same group of people and both signed off by the creators at Nintendo as canon.  Now one could argue that Zelda was never meant to have a timeline, but that would mean ignoring Aonuma's constant claims that there was one long before the first book was written (which makes one question comments made by the writers outside of the games themselves as well).  Now Kato is not Aonuma and Chrono is not Zelda, but this is just an example as to how guide books and interviews may not be as definitive as some might think.  So whether you accept the Zelda Timeline as canon or not, it just proves that pretty much anything outside of in-world evidence is subject to change and should be taken with a grain of salt.  Radical Dreamers itself is an example of an idea Kato had, but was later reformed into Chrono Cross.  Many of his original visions changed between games, the only difference is that Radical Dreamers was still included in canon through in-game explaination by way of being yet another alternate reality.

I am definitely not on board with the whole "Home World is created from scratch" theory, where Crono and gang do not time travel.  That creates more problems than answers because now there is no explanation for why Dalton would be there for the Fall of Guardia and most of what you just said would be null and void due to TTI within the original timeline being a non-factor because if the world was created from scratch with no time travel, nothing that required time travel to begin with could play out exactly the same.  The rules for TTI would not affect a completely new world created from scratch, so it pretty much has to be a direct split rather than and entirely new timeline from creation.  Not to mention Serge would not be the Arbiter of the Flame as Chronopolis would never have been a factor, which sends the entire plot of Cross into disarray.  There is even evidence within home world that shows everything prior to the split was the same, because until the split happens Chronopolis is present and Serge comes into contact with the flame.  Then overtime, due to having a different future after the split, the Sea of Eden transforms into the Dead Sea to reflect that changed future.  This is supported by the fact that key characters in Home World remember it once being the Sea of Eden, and changing 3 years prior to Cross.  Miguel himself confirms this within the Dead Sea and Serge's mother confirms that Serge's father still becomes Lynx.  All of this combined suggests that time travel was still a thing in Home World, and any alterations came after a direct split from Another World.

And now we get to the part where I agree with you, everything prior to the split would be protected under TTI.  This includes Kid, Lucca, and Crono being present for the Fall of Guardia (which means the Porre version of them in this theory would exist as well).  This is supported by the fact that El Nido itself is still present (something I failed to think about prior to your reply).  El Nido was created by FATE, who is only present in Another World after the split.  So unless events leading up to Serge's death remained the exact same, and are protected by TTI, El Nido would not exist in Home World.  This is again, also supported by how the Sea of Eden goes through a change where Chronopolis vanishes and the Dead Sea is formed, as stated by Miguel.  He also refers to the Ghost Children as "echos from a future that no longer exists", which means at one point it did.  Another thing worth noting is that Nadia's Bell is present in the Dead Sea, which never goes up until after Lavos is defeated.  This however is circumstantial, as it could be argued that the King was going to have it made regardless of events in Trigger.

So everything still taking place in Home World but protected under TTI is essential for the mess of a timeline that is Home World to exist the way it does with any feasible in-game explaination behind it.  So in this scenario, Crono fails to kill Lavos in 1999 AD and this version of Crono, Marle, and Lucca die to become the ghost children.  This is what is reflected by the Dead Sea and the versions of them that exist in periods prior would still be there via TTI.  When Lucca says, "I don't mean to upset you, but we no longer exist in this timeline" she must be refering to that specific version of them that failed in Home World.

So to recap, Crono, Marle, and Lucca die against Lavos in Home World 1999 AD to become the ghost children.  The past versions of themselves, including Lavos and events tied to him in the Time Crash, are protected under TTI as Home World is a splintered and intertwined timeline from Another World from Serge being saved onward.  This allows El Nido to exist and Serge to come into contact with the flame to become the Arbiter.  Kid also exists, but has no reason to travel to El Nido.  The reason Another World does not get sent directly to the DBT is likely due to Serge being the Arbiter and Kid being tied to Schala in the DBT itself.  This could be why the anomaly of two separate timelines was created in this case.  Chronopolis does confrim the existence of a 3rd and 4th timeline by way of Radical Dreamers and Dinopolis, which raises another question however.  Does the timeline split everytime there is a significant change to history, resulting in alternate realities similar to Home World and Another World?  Or is this where the "many worlds" theory comes into play, where every possibility has a reality of its own, and only Another World and Home World are directly connected?  And if that is the case, how would Dinopolis be pulled into Another World prior to the split if they are not already connected to begin with?  This has no bearing on the discussion of how Home World works, but it is a question I ask myself everytime someone calls the split in Cross an anomaly.

Thank you for your feedback, as I feel a much stronger understanding regarding how Home World functions through further reflection combined with the info you provided.  Please let me know if I forgot anything else.  Your input is very welcome in all of my theories.

Also, what do you think about the theory this thread is about?  I love our conversation about Home World, but you did not make any mention as to how you feel about Crono, Lucca, and Marle becoming part of Porre in the original post as we got side tracked.  Also do you agree to the possibility of how and why this would take place?

I haven't yet fully read all of this (there's a lot of great stuff here I need to digest!), so forgive me if it's been mentioned already, but...

Isn't the theory here at the Compendium for why Home World's future is destroyed, is because HW is a split off of Another World instead of a true new timeline? What I mean is, whenever an event would cause a change to a timeline's past, it creates a new timeline from that point with an identical but mirrored past (two lines); whereas HW is a unique case for some reason, because instead of being a new timeline, it's a splintered path on one line (like a fork with only two prongs).

So everything up until the 1010 split is identical because it's literally the same timeline (the fork's handle). If someone were to time travel to the future from the handle, they only end up on one path (one prong), in this case, always Another World. Which means that when Crono & Co. time travel from the past to defeat Lavos in 1999, they only appear and succeed in AW's future. Meanwhile, because Home World is a separate path, they don't appear in 1999 despite being it the same "timeline", so Lavos destroys the world, which is reflected in the Dead Sea.

There are many theories as to how the splits work.  Some suggest that every timeline alteration results in a split that we may never explore in the Chrono universe.  Others suggest that when a new timeline is created, the old one is sent to the DBT and essentially erased from existence.  This is why people often refer to Home World and Another World as an anomaly, but that does not account for Radical Dreamers and Dinopolis (which is why I asked the question I did to Acacia Sgt).

As for Crono never appearing in the future to fight Lavos in Home World, this is also a possibility of how that went down while the past versions of Crono and gang that succeeded still exist via TTI.  In this scenario, the ghost children would likely be an echo of the future that was erased in Home World, taking the form and persona of the heros that were meant to save it originally.  This fits with Miguel's description of "echos of a future that no longer exists"  as well as ghost Lucca claiming they no longer exist in that timeline (as they are just echos of an erased future).

17

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?

« on: August 08, 2020, 01:11:47 pm »

I'm gonna point out that Kid exists in Home World. A few NPC's talk about her thief gang operating on Zenan. That's why her Home World counterpart doesn't show up, because she's still on the mainland.

Makes sense when you consider Kid was placed into the time line in 1004 AD, before the split. So no reason she wouldn't exist in both worlds.

Ah yes, good point.  In that case, it would explain why she apparently was not pursuing Lynx.  Since Lucca would have died fighting Lavos in 1999 AD, Kid was probably raised by someone else in that case.

But I am still not convinced Kid MUST be in Home World.  It is possible that Lucca dying in 1999 AD would in turn cause changes prior to 1010 AD that were dependent on Lavos being defeated.  A change in the future that affected the past, prior to the split.  Otherwise there would be a paradox that could not be explained.  If Lucca finds Kid in 1004 AD because it was before 1010 AD, but died against Lavos in 1999 AD before said event takes place...well you see the problem.  So the only answer is a butterfly effect where some events prior to the split change due to alternate outcomes that took place in the future, after the split.  The way I see it, this eliminates Lucca from 1004 AD because she never visits that time before defeating Lavos.  So if this would work for her, there is no reason Kid would be any different.

Lavos does not die in Home World, so there is no fusion with Schala to create the Time Devourer in this timeline.  This was the event that prompted her to make a daughter clone to begin with, so there is no reason to expect she did.  It makes the most sense that due to an alternate outcome from the future, Lucca and Kid are eliminated from the present (in their own way).  Furthermore I do not see TTI playing a role because this is not just a change in history, but an entirely new timeline.  Logic dictates that in this case, this would just be another alteration based on possible outcomes that was caused by a butterfly effect due to a crucial change actually taking place in the future, but had direct influence on another event that would have taken place in the past.

To clarify with an example of the inverse, Dalton would still raise the Porre military to attack Guardia in Home World.  The event that caused him to do so took place before Crono and gang had their final battle with Lavos.  He would have had no way of knowing they were dead, so he would have acted out the same way he did before the split.  The reason Kid and Lucca are affected is because the event that prompts Kid being born in 1004 AD and Lucca finding her takes place in the distant future, long after the split.

As for references to Radical Dreamers, they could have carried on without her.  No where did it clarify that Kid was the leader of said gang, nor that she founded it.  So the gang of theives being active on the mainland has no influence over Kid's existence in Home World.  But even if for some reason she was born, she would have had to have been raised by someone other than Lucca.  I suppose there is that quote from Kato that suggests she might be on the mainland, so it is possible.  However that could just be him being ambiguous, which he did A LOT with Chrono Cross.  I just do not see any in world evidence to back it up and considering how Cross ended, there would never be a need to go back and clarify such a comment in a potential sequel.  He could have said pretty much anything and it would have had no impact on future plans he may have had at the time, nor the overall plot in Cross.

Either way fits into the theory nicely, but I strongly lean toward her not being present at all in Home World.  There is no solid evidence that she is present, and the events that cause her to be born are a clear alteration to the timeline as far as I can tell.  This is all of course, under the assumption that Crono, Marle, and Lucca all die fighting Lavos in 1999 AD in Home World, which is implied to be the case.

18

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?

« on: August 08, 2020, 12:10:24 am »

Basically the final battle take place in 1999 AD against Lavos, long after the split takes place.  In home world our heros fail and meet their end, which would explain why Kid is missing from Home World as Lavos would have never died and Schala would likely not have cloned herself as a result (and even of she did, Lucca would have never found her).  This also explains why the ghosts blame Serge for the future coming back, as his survival created the reality they failed in.

Serge's survival created the new reality, but how is he to blame for the failure of Crono's group to defeat Lavos?

I am going into the full explaination to elaborate, so I apologise for anything I repeat in the process.

Under the assumption that Crono and gang complete the final battle via the bucket at the End of Time or the Epoch, they fight Lavos in 1999 AD.  The dimensional split happens in 1010 AD, long before the final battle would take place.  As seen within Cross, events that happen after the split tend to change based on what could have happened instead.  When Serge survived and caused the creation of a new realty, the events that took place in 1999 AD were subject to alteration as they had not happened yet.

In Home World, Crono and gang fight Lavos and LOSE in 1999 AD, effectively allowing the erased future to take place as that would be the alternative possibility to what originally happened.  This is why Serge was blamed, why Kid is absent (Schala would have never created a clone and if she did, Lucca would already be dead), and why the Ghosts are ONLY seen in Home World or an illusionary pocket dimension created by Belthesar...but NEVER in Another World itself (which is where Lucca's letter suggests Crono and Marle are alive).

Basically the reason Crono fails in an alternate reality is because Serge created that alternate reality.  This is why, in essence, Serge is to blame despite having no say in the matter as far as the Ghost Children are concerned.  It is not about whether or not Serge creating a new timeline was objectively his fault, but more the perspective of those affected by that split.

19

Polling / Re: If you could change Chrono Cross, how would you do it?

« on: August 07, 2020, 02:11:35 pm »

Chrono Cross for me is a brilliant game, and I love it just as much as Trigger for its own reasons.  It does have its flaws, but I really would not change too much overall.

One change I would make is providing a clearer picture of what happened to Crono and Marle after the Fall of Guardia.  It is still left ambiguous and while they appear to be dead in Home World, it is suggested they are alive in Another World.  However there are no hints to what happened to them after the fall outside of ambiguous factors here and there that leave room open for a lot of speculation.  Ambiguous nature is not bad by default, but it was handled wrong in this case.  The fall being added with little post context kind of limits what is possible and what isn't.

Another change I would make is better pacing.  Instead of info dumps at 3 points of the game, the largest of which on disk 2, there should have been more consistent explanation with decent hints being strewn about.  The hunt for the Dragon Gods is a perfect example where the plot just stops, just to have the rest dumped on you later on.  That would be a great place to add some context to the overarching plot IMO.

As for a bigger change, maybe a smaller cast with more character development.  Focus on Guile having a stronger connection to Janus aside from the retcon of a retcon added to Chrono Trigger DS.  Norris, Fargo, and the Dragoons is all we really needed for the second half (aside from Harle for a brief time) and make Serge, Kid, Glenn, and Guile the main cast for the first half.  Have a stronger reunion after Serge gets his body back as well for FK sake!

But aside from that, I would leave it as is and only tie up loose ends that need to be.  It was the first Chrono game I ever played, and led me to Chrono Trigger.  Even as is, it holds a special place in my heart.

20

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?

« on: August 06, 2020, 04:14:16 am »

Here we go again bouncing around new theories involving the trio from 1000 AD.  But with this one, I decided to think outside the box.  I was surprised at how likely this turned out to be, and the amount of evidence that supports it as a very valid possibility.

So as we know, Dalton lead a Porre uprising to destroy Guardia as an act of revenge against our heros.  What we don't know is the exact fate of the cast in Another World after the fall.  I still stand by them being dead in Home world due to the ghosts only appearing in Home World/Belthesar's illusion, the destroyed future shown in the Dead Sea, and Kid's absence.  Basically the final battle take place in 1999 AD against Lavos, long after the split takes place.  In home world our heros fail and meet their end, which would explain why Kid is missing from Home World as Lavos would have never died and Schala would likely not have cloned herself as a result (and even of she did, Lucca would have never found her).  This also explains why the ghosts blame Serge for the future coming back, as his survival created the reality they failed in.

But Another World is still a mystery.  Lucca's letter implies that Crono and Marle survived the Fall of Guardia, but anything beyond that is speculation.  Well I have a new theory that suggests that they may be working with Porre at this point, to an extent.  Lets look at the evidence...

First we have to look at a pretty small, but very important fact.  Lucca has ties to the Porre Navy at the time of Lynx coming for her.  This is supported by her friendship with Luccia and the receipt for received goods from the Navy found in her home.  To me, this suggests that Dalton has already been taken out.  For one, Lucca would never help Dalton.  One might argue that it was so that he would spare the orphanage after the Fall, but Lucca cooperating with him is just unlikely on so many levels.  Dalton's actions were an act of revenge, it was personal.  If it were up to him, he would kill her.  At best he would keep her prisoner and force her to cooperate or die.  Furthermore I find it likely that her being a prisoner of War would have been reflected in the letter, but it seemed she was worried for what might come for her and her friends rather than a threat that is already present.  From what I can tell there was no sign of her ever being forced either, and seemed to be working on her own.

Another thing to take note of is that I believe that Dalton would have gone to El Nido with the Navy in search of the Frozen Flame after Lynx went rouge.  This was a very powerful artifact that would make the desires of anyone who touched it a reality.  As seen in Chrono Trigger, he wanted world domination.  The Frozen Flame could have given him that, so do you really think he would have entrusted someone else to bring it to him?  Nah, I think he would have been there in person.  Especially with Lynx going rouge, as his sudden silence would surely be a red flag and have been more than enough reason for Dalton to show up and investigate.  Norris in Another World returned to Porre with this knowledge as well, and his duty was to his country.  He would have no reason to hide Lynx's betrayal and the body swap from Dalton if he was still in charge.  Though it could be argued the news could not be delivered in time for him to act, I still can't see him just sitting in Porre during Lynx's initial silence prior to Serge returning in Lynx's body in the first place.  As I said, he would want to be near so that he himself would be the one to take hold of the Flame.

So what I believe may have happened in this theory is that Crono, Marle, and Lucca manage to retaliate against Dalton, perhaps with a resistance force, and take him out.  Dalton clearly was not around in Cross with Lucca working with Porre and his absence in the search for an artifact that his character would insist on being present for.  Crono taking him out makes the most sense, as they already managed to fell his forces once in the ocean palace to reach the Queen and Lavos.  Then again on the Blackbird, albeit with Crono's absence at the time (escaping as prisoners I might add).  The group clearly had the most experience in dealing with the guy and his antics, more so than anyone else in that period of time.

Fast forward to 1999 AD on the Day of Lavos, and Truce is confirmed to still be around.  Even if the kingdom was gone, the town that was burned to the ground was rebuilt.  It is possible that Guardia was in the process of rebuilding during Cross, but it is more likely that Porre remained the current superpower.  With Dalton gone, Crono and Marle would have no reason to go against Porre and likely came to an agreement to rebuild Truce as a vassel state with whoever took his place (since Porre was still nigh untouchable in Cross).  Marle was not exactly queen material, but she did care for her people.  With their true enemy defeated, I could see her working with Porre for the greater good in exchange for Truce being restored for the people of Guardia that survived the attack.  This would make Lucca's ties with Porre make more sense.  Marle would likely govern Truce under Porre's rule and Crono, being the capable warrior he was, may very well have joined their army.  If this were the case, this could explain why Crono and Marle never came to Lucca's aid when Lynx took her.  Lynx had infiltrated Porre and aquired a vast amount of influence leading up to Cross.  Crono surely wanted to find her, but the very man who took her was in a position to misguide him through manipulation of information.  Not that Lynx was afraid of Crono, but had he been figured out his cover would have been blown.

Porre itself was not a bad nation afterall, Dalton was just an evil guy.  With evidence supporting him being out of the picture and no real evidence supporting that Porre was evil as a nation, this seems like a very possible scenario.  Dalton could have even faced mutiny by soldiers like Norris, who prove that not all of them were bad.  TBH the only thing that makes Porre look evil without Dalton is Lynx (who was a double agent of FATE) and a few asshat soldiers that exist in any army.  The rest were just following orders from someone who had no idea what was really going on once Lynx left.  And yes I know that Porre was in search of the Flame for power, but this was set in motion by Lynx.  He used Porre just as much as the Dragoons, who arguably wanted it for the same thing.  I don't see the clashing nations as Porre being evil so much as a conflict of ideals, and Porre just happens to be the current superpower.

So lets take a quick recap.  The hard evidence that supports this is Lucca's letter, Crono and Marle's likely survival (also supported by how Doan was brought to 1000 AD at the end of Trigger which suggest Crono and Marle made a child at some point), Dalton's appearent absence, Truce existing in 1999 AD, and Lucca's apparently peaceful ties to the Porre Navy.  The other stuff is mainly speculation based on the ambiguous nature of how the original crew was handled, as well as Dalton himself.

The evidence that goes against it...is nothing really.  One could argue that the evidence outside of Lucca having connections to Porre and her letter suggesting Crono and Marle survived is open to interpretation as well.  But IMO all of it put together with those pieces of evidence make it a very likely (while not definite) scenario.

So how about it, what do you think of this theory?  Are there any problems?  How likely do you find it?

One of the good things about the ambiguous nature of Cross is the possibilities it offers, and I look forward to hearing feedback based on this.  And a shoutout to Acacia Sgt, who in another thread cleared a few things up for me that made me think a bit more out of the box.

21

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Why Crono, Marle, and Lucca MUST be alive after the events of Chrono Cross.

« on: July 26, 2020, 07:53:34 pm »

This is supported by the drawings seen in Lucca's house, as if they were around to help with the kids.

Personally, I'd think it's more probable the kids made the drawings based on the photograph of the group, not so much that they were there. This is also likely how they could also draw Frog, Robo, and Ayla, despite them being back in their respective times.

The fact that Porre wants the Frozen Flame implies that they need it for some reason.  It does not confirm that Guardia is rebuilding, but it does show that resistance is being met somewhere.

In the general Kid ending, she refers to Guardia being her first target for world domination, then they would attack Porre.  This implies that Guardia does exist at some capacity, but is weaker than Porre.  Pick off the weaker nation first and attack the big dog second.

Radius says Guardia was once peaceful, which can be taken two ways.  It was either destroyed completely, or they are at war.  While it does not confirm that Guardia is still around, it does not confirm its absence either.

I'm not so sure how much stock can be put on Kid's quote in the General Kid ending. Cross's endings work on a Schrödinger basis. They operate on what the game has revealed at the time, even if the game later contradicts it. Like in the "Demihumans take over El Nido" ending. The Dragon God is shown to act very unlike what the game later reveals about it, but at the time the ending can be triggered, we don't know that yet (or not supposed to know, since the endings are NG+), so the Dragon God behaves differently for the ending.

This is important since that ending is the only time the Kingdom of Guardia is mentioned. In the game itself Guardia is only spoken as Guardia. For all we know, Guardia could refer to the region of northern Zenan. Truce is just a city name, after all. It's not unlike saying Great Britain to refer to the island, and not the country of The Kingdom of Great Britain (and Northern Ireland).

And now for the BIGGEST piece of evidence that not only was there a resistance, but Dalton was defeated.  Guardia and Truce exist in 1999 AD, even after Dalton loses on the Blackbird.  Thats right, the evidence is in CT itself.  If you lose in the final battle (before or after Dalton), you see Lavos ravage the world.  Not only is Truce (part of Guardia), Porre, and other nations mentioned in the destruction, but there is another dome that sits just above where Lavos emerges...right where Guardia Castle would be.  This implies that somehow, after the fall of Guardia where the Castle was taken and Truce is burned to the ground, Guardia was able to rebuild itself as a nation.  And in order for that to happen, Princess Nadia herself would have to at least survive the initial attack.  If she survived, it is likely Crono did as well.  This is again backed up by my other points regarding Lucca's letter and the absence of the ghosts in Another World.

What seems most likely is that Crono and Marle eventually defeat Dalton and rebuild Guardia.  With Dalton removed, Porre could have been more diplomatic with his replacement and even helped Guardia rebuild in the name of peace.  Crono's enemy was not Porre after all, but Dalton himself.  This is how both Porre AND Guardia are present during the Day of Lavos.

Truce is around, yes... but Guardia does not.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/chrono/images/7/72/Guardia_1999AD.png/revision/latest?cb=20110526223802

Lavos emerges in that desert in the southeast corner. That's not Zenan. It's the island that housed Magus's Castle, and later on Melchior's house. That dome to the north, who knows what it is, but it's definitely not Guardia Castle. It could be the Arris Dome itself, but that's only conjecture on my part. Anyway, you can see Truce dome to the northwest, but notice how where the Castle is suppose to be... there's only small domes.

Also, even if Guardia as a nation could rebuilt itself... it doesn't have to include Nadia/Marle. Kingdoms through history can change dynasts. Like how France has been in the hands of the Carolingians, the Capets, the Bourbons, the Bonapartes, and others. When Napoleon restored the monarchy, he placed himself as Emperor, instead of putting the Bourbons back on the throne.

Besides, in CT itself we kinda get the hint Marle's family stopped being rulers anyway, enduring/restored Kingdom of Guardia or not. Her descendant had become the Arris Dome Director by then. He's certainly not a prince. Even with no Fall of Guardia in 1005AD, there's the implication the Kingdom of Guardia ceased to exist anyway. The guys listing the places in the Day of Lavos don't mention Guardia either. They mention Truce, yes, but it's likely they're only mentioning the cities anyway.

Personally, as it is, only Lucca's letter holds weight in implying Crono and Marle are still alive, since Lucca refers to them in the present tense, and since it was written when Kid was already a child, long after the Fall.

I don't know if they may still be alive, but it could still be likely... just, that it's unlikely it's how you stated it.

It is possible that the drawings were done based on a photograph, and that is the only way to have had Frog, Ayla, and Robo there since time travel was no longer an option.  This does not confirm their death in any way, but it does debunk it as evidence that they are alive.

Fair enough point on the plus endings, I try to take them with a grain of salt most of the time myself.  However when Radius mentions Guardia, that point still stands to be taken two ways.  Either Guardia is gone, or the region itself could house the resistance if it is only referring to the area.  This would explain how it would no longer be peaceful.  But again, dual meaning here.

Ah good catch on Lavos position, I had that wrong.  I still see Truce being around as being supporting evidence however, even if it does no outright confirm it.  Truce was burned to the ground, and I find it unlikely to be rebuilt with the same name without Dalton being taken out and the Kingdom restored.  It is however possible, I just find it unlikely.

So yes, I suppose the only concrete evidence is still Lucca's letter.  However that still makes the score 1 for Crono being alive in another world, and 0 for him being dead as there is NOTHING that suggests Crono and Marle did not make it.  I still stand by my theory for the Ghost children being the spirits of Crono, Marle, and Lucca from Home World after failing in 1999 AD however.  With that taken into consideration, as well as the ghosts absence in Another World, I find that to suggest that Crono being alive or dead is similar to Serge, but in reverse.  Crono is alive in Another World (as supported by the letter) and dead in Home World (supported by ghosts).

In the end, the conclusion of my theory is still the same.  However some of my initial logic was flawed.  Thank you for the clarification.

On a side note, the only decendent of Marle we have seen from the future is from a time where none of the nations exist anymore.  The change in his location does not signify that his bloodline was still not ruling Guardia before the Day of Lavos.  At that point, people likely scattered and just ended up wherever over the course of 301 years.  I don't see how that could possibly imply that the lineage ruling the kingdom could have changed.  His existence does however suggest that Marle had a child.  If she were to fall in 1005 AD and had given birth before the fall, it is more believable that would have been the reason for Crono and Marle to flee the failing defense of the castle.  So regardless of who ruled the region, either their child was taken away to safety by someone else or they escaped with their child.  Had they not had a child yet, at the very least Marle would need to survive.

22

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Why Crono, Marle, and Lucca MUST be alive after the events of Chrono Cross.

« on: July 24, 2020, 05:59:08 pm »

There has been much speculation regarding the fates of Crono, Lucca, and Marle at the time of Chrono Cross.  Some believe them to be dead due to the ghost children and the fall of Guardia.  Some believe them to be alive due to Lucca's letter, and others see those two things as contradiction and become indecisive on the matter.  However, when all of the dots are connected the answer is really quite clear.

First off, let me say that they are both alive AND dead in CC.  First lets look at the ghost children.  They appear in the Dead Sea, Opassa Beach, and Terra Tower.  In the Dead Sea, they are angry with Serge.  They blame him for the future they prevented coming back in Home World.  Many find this odd and wonder how Serge surviving could make that happen, but we will come back to that.  Second we have Opassa Beach, where they appear to reveal some last minute plot twists and tie up loose ends before the final battle.  Now the important thing to note here is that both of these take place in Home World, where the future is destined to be destroyed again.  Terra Tower is in Another World, but you only encounter them in a small pocket dimension created by Belthesar and not Another World itself.  This small pocket dimension exists in between both realities and the ghost children were pulled in temporarily, same as you.  Upon exiting, the entrance is gone and you cannot return to it.

So what all of this tells me, is that they are dead in Home World, but when did they die?  The answer is quite obvious actually.  They died in 1999 AD during their final battle with Lavos.  Home World splits when Serge is saved by Kid and many things are different from that point forward.  CC takes place in 1020 AD, long before the Day of Lavos...so the Final Battle is now eligible for an alteration, which all of a sudden makes the Dead Sea and Serge being blamed a lot more believable.  Crono and gang do not fight Lavos in 1999 AD until after they defeat Dalton on the Black Bird, which would still motivate him to militarize Porre and attack Guardia.  He would have no way of knowing Crono already failed here.  If Lucca had died against Lavos, she would have never taken in Kid either.  This explains Kid's absence in Home World as well.

Now lets look at the letter from Lucca, which implies they are alive.  This letter is given to Kid in Another World, which is the main timeline where the events of CT played out.  This implies that Crono and Marle survived the fall of Guardia, and helped Lucca create an orphanage for war orphaned children.  This is supported by the drawings seen in Lucca's house, as if they were around to help with the kids.  What happens here is likely that they join a resistance to take down Dalton and begin rebuilding Guardia.  There are a few factors that support this.

The fact that Porre wants the Frozen Flame implies that they need it for some reason.  It does not confirm that Guardia is rebuilding, but it does show that resistance is being met somewhere.

In the general Kid ending, she refers to Guardia being her first target for world domination, then they would attack Porre.  This implies that Guardia does exist at some capacity, but is weaker than Porre.  Pick off the weaker nation first and attack the big dog second.

Radius says Guardia was once peaceful, which can be taken two ways.  It was either destroyed completely, or they are at war.  While it does not confirm that Guardia is still around, it does not confirm its absence either.

And now for the BIGGEST piece of evidence that not only was there a resistance, but Dalton was defeated.  Guardia and Truce exist in 1999 AD, even after Dalton loses on the Blackbird.  Thats right, the evidence is in CT itself.  If you lose in the final battle (before or after Dalton), you see Lavos ravage the world.  Not only is Truce (part of Guardia), Porre, and other nations mentioned in the destruction, but there is another dome that sits just above where Lavos emerges...right where Guardia Castle would be.  This implies that somehow, after the fall of Guardia where the Castle was taken and Truce is burned to the ground, Guardia was able to rebuild itself as a nation.  And in order for that to happen, Princess Nadia herself would have to at least survive the initial attack.  If she survived, it is likely Crono did as well.  This is again backed up by my other points regarding Lucca's letter and the absence of the ghosts in Another World.

What seems most likely is that Crono and Marle eventually defeat Dalton and rebuild Guardia.  With Dalton removed, Porre could have been more diplomatic with his replacement and even helped Guardia rebuild in the name of peace.  Crono's enemy was not Porre after all, but Dalton himself.  This is how both Porre AND Guardia are present during the Day of Lavos.

Lucca being alive at the end of CC is a completely different, and much simpler matter to explain.  The Chrono Cross merged realities and removed Chronopolis from the equation.  This means that there is no FATE, which means there is no Lynx, which also means that Lucca is never kidnapped.  This is supported also by the fact that Kid/Schala seems to live a much happier life at the end of CC.

And that is really the only thing that makes sense to me.  There were a lot of dots to connect on this one within both games, and I am quite pleased with the results.  So what do you think?  Is this how you pictured their fates to turn out in the end?  Does this theory sway you at all of not?  And if not, how do you see it playing out?

23

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: The full effect of the Chrono Cross and how it ties up every loose end...(theory

« on: July 16, 2020, 05:51:57 pm »

Very good points made by both of you, but there are a few things I need to point out.  Your input is proving useful and I feel by weaving our ideas together, we are on the right track to creating a new plausible theory based soley on in-game canon.  I will repsond with notes addressing points made in your quotes, and later update the theory with the new ideas weaved in as the discussion develops.

Anyway, the complete reply of one of the members of my Discord server (translated) follows:

I think the problem with this theory is that it is considering that the split caused by lavos falling on the planet and not falling on the planet is the same type of split that exists between home and another which does not seem to be since the reptites' timeline comes from a parallel universe whose existence does not depend on timetravel of any kind which differs from the split of keystone-1 to keystone-2 (names of the timeline in the image above) since keystone-2 only exists because of the timecrash.

Another observation in this theory is that Radical Dreamers events are observed in chronopolis as if Radical Dreamers were a parallel reality whose existence would be independent of Cross's universe.

What really gets me stuck with this theory is that I don't think that the split existing by a time travel results in two real and distinct temporal existences, the new timeline exists in the real universe while the old one is sent to Zurvan, despite the Chrono Cross restore the balance between the timelines I can't see how he would play all possible Zurvan timelines, which are imaginary, in one, so I always considered Home and Another two real timelines interconnected because of the kid project and not that one exists for cause of a split caused by a simple time travel.

-> I suppose the real timeline of the reptites could exist in the ideal timeline because of Chrono Cross since it is a real timeline and not imaginary but I discard this line of thought in favor of the real timelines that are unified are just the home ones and another since "angelus errare" interconnects only these two timelines directly and Chrono Cross is used at that specific point as designated by the kid project.

Basically
1 - Anything that exists in Zurvan is not part of the ideal timeline.
2 - Only the real timelines of Home and Another unify because of "Angelus Errare" and no other.

Ah right, what happens is that when we go to the past we mess up with the events giving Azala an advantage to win the war which makes Crono & co necessary to maintain the timeline in which Azala’s descendants are destroyed by Lavos. I simply assumed that Dinopolis came from a different timeline where Lavos never fell to the ground. Considering the end of Trigger 'Dino Age', it is observed that 'Crono' is a reptile and exists in a world very similar to the original timeline, while Cross’s reptiles supposedly evolved differently and more integrated with the planet , so much so that the technology of the elements they use is quite different from human technologies. Since the repeats of 'Dino Age' seem too similar to the way humans evolved in the original timeline, I simply assumed that Dinopolis is from a different timeline, but I suppose it is possible for 'Dino Age' to lead to the creation of Dinopolis eventually.

Theoretically, Lavos needs to exist in the ideal timeline, only he is defeated in 1999 before everything is destroyed, it needs to exist because Zeal theoretically would have existed magic is something inherent in the way that humanity evolved with Lavos' assistance.

Zurvan = Sea of dreams, is mentioned in the perfect end of Cross and Masato Kato mentioned it in an interview once (Link).

When I differentiate between real timeline and imaginary timeline I am making use of Zurvan. Real timeline is everything that exists in the universe in a material way while all the possibilities of timelines exist in Zurvan in an abstract way, in zurvan there are all dreams, imaginations, thoughts, ideas. When Lucca wonders at the end of the trigger about what happens to the timeline that is no longer allowed to exist, at the perfect end of the Cross, Kid says that they will return to Zurvan the sea of ​​dreams. So in the DS Trigger they give the name of the merger of Sara and Lavos of Dream Devourer, existing materially in a place that he shouldn’t exist he started to feed on Zurvan’s dreams, within the dreams the denied timelines, only that any real timeline that exists from a change it is always dependent on a denied timeline, as if there was a kind of "quantum entanglement" (for lack of a better word) between them, eventually devouring the timelines denied in Zurvan, Dream Devourer begins to devour time itself by becoming Time Devourer.

- On the notion that Lavos himself could not have caused the split, I can agree to this.  However there is another more plausible option that makes more sense and leaves the premise of the theory the same.  Lavos falls to earth and the events of CT unfold as we know.  As I said before, when history is changed new timelines are created, seeing how it is stated in Cross that there are as many timelines as there are possibilities it is safe to assume that there are more unknown realities aside from the 5 timelines that are directly confirmed in the games.  With that in mind, I cannot get behind altered timelines simply going to Zurvan rather than there just being a split based on both possible outcomes.  As I said in my last post, the refrence of everyone being dreams of the planet dreaming the dream of life and that all dreams eventually return to Zurvan more than likely points to where lifeforms go when they pass.

But I digress, the main issue here is what causes the Dinopolis Timeline.  It is stated in Cross that Lavos in Antiquity could sense that it would be defeated in the future and pulled Chronopolis from the future that it was defeated to that period.  This was due to their use of the Frozen Flame (a shard of Lavos) during the Time Crash incident.  Then the Entity (planet) pulls Dinopolis from the future of a timeline where Lavos never crashes into the earth to counter it.  So what I am thinking is that upon seeing what happens with Chronopolis, the entity itself splits the timeline before Lavos comes to the planet to allow Dinopolis to exist in the first place.  It was an action of self defense afterall.

- I would not take to seriously anything found in the New Game Plus endings as absolute canon.  For one, the ones in CT were made long before Cross was a thought.  And more importantly, they are not made to be taken seriously as the contradict the main plot itself.  An example of this is that in the General Kid ending, the Dragon Tear is now the Frozen Flame.  But the item in hand is still the Dragon Tear from the main game.  Also in Trigger we know of Time Traveler's Immunity, yet in one ending Marle is made to be a Frog.  So I would not put too much stock into the Dino Age Plus ending and the tech being the same as the humans.

A more accurate comparison would be the Lost Sanctum in the DS release and beyond.  The Reptites here are clearly more in tune with nature than their human counterparts in the same time period.

- The Radical Dreamers timeline is likely a split that takes place before Cross, and exists alongside the two we play in.  It actually makes sense that FATE would be watching it, because if its plans failed (and FATE did not die) it was another world it could make contact with the Frozen Flame.  Also remember that FATE could not direcrly influence Home World either, so the fact that the RD timeline was only being observed at the time does not mean it is any less of a split than Home World was.  It just was not a split that any of the characters in Cross were directly involved with.

- Kid never says deleted timelines go to Zurvan, Schala/Kid say ALL dreams go to Zurvan eventually.  This is right after calling all lifeforms themselves "dreams of the planet", which makes it seem more like an afterlife reference where souls go when they die.

- I cannot get behind the idea of only two timelines being merged, because there are 3 in total that actually show us interaction within Cross itself, even if you ignore the RD timeline entirely.  The Dinopolis Timeline is present and shows influence throughout the entire game.  It has become part of El Nido itself and if a merge of the two were to take place, Dinopolis by default would HAVE to be included.  The Dinopolis Timeline still has Terra Tower hurled back in time, but without a merge it has nowhere to go.  One could argue that the Chrono Cross heals that timeline as well, and Terra Tower simply remains untouched by the entity as there would no longer be a need to throw it back in time, but that would show influence beyond the two timelines we play in, which is my point.  I also do not see Zurvan being an option here, as Dinopolis would have already been written out by the logic within the quote.  So with that in mind, it is evident that more timelines are affected by the Chrono Cross than what we see.  It is completely logical for the other timelines to be affected as well.

LMAO, love the meme.

Thank you, thank you 

Everything else regarding the world is open to interpretation.

When talking about the "unified time" at the end of Chrono Cross, I'm of the opinion that it's supposed to be up for interpretation and deliberately left vague. Schala calls to the player, not Serge, during her speech, so I believe Kato was trying to address us in his message; the ending is for us to decide.

But that doesn't necessarily unify the players who want a clear ending. So, we get great discussions like the one you're bringing up here instead!

If you look a little deeper at the poetic meaning behind it all however, the "scars of time" created by Lavos could signify a nightmare of the planet.  The merging of realities and purge of Lavos/Time Devourer could also signify that nightmare coming to an end.

I like the metaphor you have for the "scars of time" being the split timelines. It makes sense. Those scars being the nightmares of the planet is also repeated very similarly by Robo in Chrono Trigger. He and the others suggest that the Gates are the memories of some dying entity (the planet) reliving its past.

So yeah, I could see the true purpose of the Chrono Cross item being to mend these scars. What that means, exactly, I'm not sure. It's difficulty for me to believe it's an actual merging of all timelines into one "ideal" timeline, specifically for the same concerns Lucca writes of in her letter: What of the other futures that are discarded? The other people? Some things may be fixed but many other things are traded for that to happen. Who's to say the Reptite dimension with no humans at all is not better and more "ideal" than the One? Who determines what gets merged?

To me, this isn't "everyone winning". Even in the ideal timeline, Lucca's fears of someone going back in time for revenge, effectively undoing it all, could still easily happen (unless time itself is somehow sealed?).

I agree that we should try to base theories on as much canon as possible. Yet, this is difficult when the games contradict themselves even. Trigger describes time travel with the Grandfather Paradox... yet promptly discards it for the rest of the game. Cross, unfortunately, has several contradicting elements: For one, Crono and Marle are both presumed dead (as seen by their "ghosts") and alive (as Lucca's letter, written sometime while Kid is still a child—thus after the fall of Guardia—speaks of "her friends" in the present tense); (2) When was the timeline split? In 1006 AG, when Schala reaches out to Serge who then comes into contact with the Frozen Flame? Or when Kid travels back in time to 1010 AG to save Serge? (I prefer this answer, myself); (3) Said time travel incident is itself a paradox; Kid goes back to save Serge... who will later go back to save Kid?

Oh, I also agree that there's a split in time before 65 Ma BG, causing the Reptite timeline to progress and later be involved in the Time Crash. I'm not set on the idea that it was Lavos who caused it, however. While Lavos definitely has some temporal powers, recall that it's the Entity who creates the Gates. Lavos may simply have acquired her time magic from the Entity in the same way she absorbs all other life. Before creating a pocket dimension in which to reside, Ayla says that Lavos literally burrowed deep within the earth. Otherwise, why crash into the planet at all if she could create a temporal pocket at any point and not kill off the creatures she needs to feed from? I think Lavos couldn't use time magic at all before consuming it from the planet, and even then, never in a capacity to travel travel or create Gates herself (though it could be argued that it was Lavos who sent Janus and the Gurus into the future, just as it could be argued that it was her who beckoned Chronopolis into the past—my theory's not perfect either).

Basically
1 - Anything that exists in Zurvan is not part of the ideal timeline.
2 - Only the real timelines of Home and Another unify because of "Angelus Errare" and no other.

I'm not quite a fan of the idea that there's a difference between "timeline splits" and "parallel universes". They seem kinda the same thing? Chrono Cross suggests and CT:DS outright confirms—through Magus right before the Dream Devourer fight—that "there are as many worlds as there are potentialities".

But let's supposed that there are "real timelines". I'd argued that's it's only Time Eggs or similarly very powerful temporal anomalies that create them. I put together this timeline to showcase that (and also to help myself in understanding the Chrono series' confusing timelines).


(apologies for small font, zoom in if necessary)

We have several of these "real" splits.

• In Pre-History, an unknown event causes a split. I believe this is caused by the Entity. In the timeline where Lavos never falls, we have the Lost Sanctum (Reptites, Dragonians, Dinopolis, etc.).
• In Keystone 1, we have everything that happens in Chrono Trigger up to Crono's death. If we go with the multiverse idea, every travel to past would also create another unique timeline.
• The Keystone 1 (orange) and Radical Dreamers (yellow) timelines are functionally on the same line; everything, including the party's many time travels, are the same, up to Marle's use of the Time Egg which causes the split and sets the resulting (yellow and blue) timelines in stone.
• In Radical Dreamers, Crono dies, permanently. The game Radical Dreamers takes place here, of course. Just... don't think too hard about moustache-Lynx and where he is elsewhere.
• In Keystone 2, Crono is saved by the Time Egg, and the party eventually defeats Lavos. Later, Belthasar and Robo develop Chronopolis, leading to the Time Crash.
• Time Crash happens, Another World is created. Eventually, Kid travels back to 1010 AG with a Time Egg to save Serge. Don't worry about the paradox.
• Home World is created. For some reason, Serge can jump across the pond to Another World. Here we have everything that happens in Chrono Cross, leading up to the Chrono Cross.

Everything after that is speculation and exactly why this thread was started!

What's everyone else think of Sheiken's ideas?

- The merging of all the timelines would be the memories, souls, and realities of people all being weaved together in harmony.  This means that no one in particular decides what stays, goes, gets altered, etc.  It just happens in its most natural form.  One would assume that it would try to resemble the unaltered timeline as closely as possible, but without Lavos and with influence from the different timelines that existed beforehand.  And example of this is El Nido, which did not exist until after the Time Crash.  However having it manifest naturally may not affect the base timeline in an unstable way, so it was written in.  Also Kid being a reincarnation of Schala from the RD timeline rather than a daughter clone of Schala from Antiquity makes the most sense, and is also written in.  The Dragonians would still exist as they not only existed in El Nido at one point in time, but they could have simply evolved with humans naturally without Lavos killing them off.  Ayla even showed sympathy for Azala as Lavos was falling and Azala showed respect for Ayla in that same instance telling her to, "Take care of the planet."  So it is not hard to believe that it is possible for them to find peace.

So in short, everything is simply weaved as naturally as they can be.  Things that cannot be written in physically could exist in our minds through Legends and Folklore, much like the Chrono IP itself.  You are right that not everyone would win.  Lives that were once meant to be lived would change, and there is no getting around that fact.  When I said that, I meant us as fans win due to the sheer potential of such a merge.  But for those changed lives, it would not matter.  Be they merged memories, folklore, or physical manifestation they will all be weaved together in perfect harmony as per the Chrono Cross.  Time is not being fractured in this case, but healed in a way that would likely prevent anyone from messing with time again.

But if someone had to decide, it would have to be the Entity itself.  In which case all of those dreams that were changed and weaved into a new existence would remain within Zurvan, as they have always been nothing more than dreams of the entity itself.  No matter how you slice it, there is a dark side to the theory however.  But for the cast and characters we see in both games, we have closure.  That is the main point of a definitive ending theory afterall.

- Love the timesplit graph you presented, very good reference point.  I do feel the need to correct one contradiction you said though about Crono and Marle however.  The ghosts are only seen in Home World and Lucca's letter was written in Another World.  Home world is also the timeline that tries to recreate what Crono and gang changed in the future, before FATE intervenes in the Dead Sea (which I assume was only possible because the Dead Sea itself was unstable).  So I believe that when the split happens, they die and fail their quest in Home World.  Perhaps by butterfly effect, but either more changed than just the point of Serge being saved onward, or they were simply written out of existence.  Afterall Migeul does refer to them as "echos of a timeline that no longer exists."

Another possibility that supports them failing their quest is that under the assumption that they defeat Lavos in 1999 A.D., one of the changes that takes place in Home World is simply that they died in that battle.  This means they would have never had the chance to return to 1000 A.D. to begin with, but Dalton would still be war hungry as he was defeated before the split.  This could also be why the ghosts blame Serge for the future remaining unchanged in Home World, and how their work was "undone".  This could also be why Kid is nowhere to be found in Home World, as she was only born into Another World as a daughter clone (remember, she was a reincarnation in RD timeline).

Another World however is said to be the reality we play in Chrono Trigger, and in this timeline they are alive and helped Lucca make an Orphanage for children who lost their parents in the Fall of Guardia.  This is likely why there are so many pictures of them in Lucca's house, as if the kids met them.  They are probably organizing a resistance or rebuilding Guardia while having conflict of Porre.  Raidus refers to Guardia as "once peaceful" which could mean either destroyed or at war.  The castle fell and Truce burned, we know that much but we do not know much beyond that.  No matter the case, I believe Crono and Marle to be alive in Another World as there is nothing that suggests otherwise.

Thank you both for your input, very interesting stuff.  Talking lore is always a good time, and we all learn from eachother in the process.  I look forward to discussing this further.

24

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: The full effect of the Chrono Cross and how it ties up every loose end...(theory

« on: July 14, 2020, 02:29:21 pm »

This also adds context to the motives of Belthesar, as he would no longer be orchestrating all of the tragedies that took place in Cross just to separate Schala from the Time Devourer.  Instead he would have more of a, "for the greater good" type of agenda where he suspected the Chrono Cross would have healed the scars of time as well as save Schala...or it could just be an added bonus that he never really accounted for at all lol.

LMAO, love the meme.  I know it is a joke (well played) buy for clarification...

Belthesar would have been clueless until after the conclusion of CT, where he would have conducted his time research in Chronopolis and discovered the Time Devourer.  Obviously he had nothing to do with Lavos smashing into the earth in pre history, or any of the events regarding the central plot of CT really.

But all this talk about people being dreams of the planet that are dreaming the dream of life, that will one day return to the Sea of Dreams kind of gets me thinking...

https://youtu.be/3RhxyHMs-w8

25

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: The full effect of the Chrono Cross and how it ties up every loose end...(theory

« on: July 14, 2020, 01:43:15 pm »

Great hypothesis, i shared a translated version of your essay on my brazilian fanclub (on Discord), and some members raised a yellow light about it mentioning the concept of Zurvan (the Sea of Dreams, where, according to Schala, all dreams eventually return).

I could paste here some interesting answers but Google translate likes to mangle some slangs and abbreviations.

In Chrono Trigger, there is mention of the possibility of an "entity" that may be guiding Crono and gang.  I believe this "entity" could be the spirit of the planet guiding our heros to not only save it from Lavos, but also to begin the sequence of events that allow the timelines to be merged with the Chrono Cross itself.  It is said that when the eggs we call "planets" hatch, a new universe is born.  However with so many timeline changes or "scars of time" being present, it could be possible that the birth of this new universe would be unstable without the unification from the Chrono Cross.


"Every single thing
in the whole of nature
is perhaps just dreaming
a dream of ``life''...

All of them are also
perhaps nothing more than
a dream dreamt by the planet
before it is born.

Oh, but yes...
Eventually all dreams
will return to Zurvan...
to the sea of dreams..."

If the "entity" is truly the spirit of the planet and we as people are dreams of the planet, then it would make sense that all dreams return to Zurvan, the sea of dreams when we die.  In a sense, Zurvan would be the "heaven" or "afterlife" of the Chrono universe and the "entity" or "spirit of the planet" would serve as the creator through its dreams.

At this point in Schala's speech, she could just be talking about lifeforms and our meaning of existence, which would have no bearing on the breaks in the timeline.  If you look a little deeper at the poetic meaning behind it all however, the "scars of time" created by Lavos could signify a nightmare of the planet.  The merging of realities and purge of Lavos/Time Devourer could also signify that nightmare coming to an end.

26

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: The full effect of the Chrono Cross and how it ties up every loose end...(theory

« on: July 14, 2020, 10:14:01 am »

Regarding which time period Schala/Kid would exist in regarding the merged timeline.  Seeing as how she was born in Antiquity, but Kid was born in roughly 1004 AD as Schala's "daughter clone", she would have to exist in both time periods.  Schala in Antiquity is simple enough, but Schala as Kid gets a little bit more complicated on the surface.  However when considering that Radical Dreamers would be merged as well, it can easily be assumed that Kid will be born as a reincarnation of Schala (as that is what she was in the Radical Dreamers timeline).

27

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: The full effect of the Chrono Cross and how it ties up every loose end...(theory

« on: July 13, 2020, 11:57:40 am »

This also adds context to the motives of Belthesar, as he would no longer be orchestrating all of the tragedies that took place in Cross just to separate Schala from the Time Devourer.  Instead he would have more of a, "for the greater good" type of agenda where he suspected the Chrono Cross would have healed the scars of time as well as save Schala...or it could just be an added bonus that he never really accounted for at all lol.

28

Characters, Plot, and Themes / The full effect of the Chrono Cross and how it ties up every loose end...(theory

« on: July 13, 2020, 11:49:28 am »

In a world where we have to accept that we will not be getting a new entry to the Chrono IP, I find myself thinking about how certain plot points (such as the fall of Guardia and the future of Zenan) could have a conclusion within mainline canon.  After making this my main focus, I realized the answer was right in front of me the whole time and developed a new theory (at least I have never thought of it before).

We do not really know what the full extent of the Chrono Cross' power really is, as it was never specified.  However many people seem to think that it only merges the two worlds from the game it is used in.  I have never been a fan of this as it creates more questions than it does answers, nor is there any indication that it would be limited to those two realities alone.  I mean, healing the scars of time with the Chrono Cross is enough to stop a creature that would otherwise devour every reality in existence.  Surely if it could do that, it would do more than just merge two realities and stop there.  No given what we know, and the description of what is given for the Chrono Cross, I believe it merges EVERY alternate reality into one single timeline.  It basically hits the reset button on all of existence, and rewrites reality in a way that everything exists in one timeline.  This is implied by the very description of the item noted by the ghost of Crono at the end of the game, "it can cross space and time and unify people's thoughts and feelings; transfer memories; draw on the sounds of the six colored Elements to produce a healing harmony, and combine the sounds of the world into one melody."

So how would such a massive merge take place though?  Well the CC is also said to, "heal the scars of time."  But what exactly is a scar of time to begin with?  The way I see it, a scar of time is where a timeline splits.  That means that everytime history is changed to any degree, there is a split where two outcomes exist.  One that was with interference, and one that was without.  Yes that means that while Chrono Trigger appears to be on one changing timeline, there is actually a split taking place and Crono and gang simply return the the altered version of the timeline they changed.  You just do not realize it, as you only follow the linear flow through time of Crono's quest and never venture between realities themselves (outside of the added DS content).  This is supported by the fact that Kid was able to save Serge, and the result was two timelines.  This is supported by the existence of the Radical Dreamers timeline confirmed in Chronopolis, and perhaps another split that is arguably the most important one found within the games...the existence of the Dinopolis Timeline.

The Dinopolis Timeline marks the very first scar of time in the history of the Chrono franchise.  Basically there is one reality where Lavos comes to earth and the humans become the dominant race, and one where he does not and the Reptites evolve with the planet and become the dominant race themselves.  So what caused this split though?  It was simply the sheer power of the impact Lavos made with the planet that tore through spacetime and caused this split to happen.  This is supported by the fact that in Chrono Trigger, when Lavos falls in pre history a gate is created in the impact zone.  I literal in-game feat that took place in front of our very eyes.

So with all of that, it is safe to assume that alternate timelines were being created behind the scenes in Chrono Trigger as well, we just never see them.  This also helps explain why Crono and gang have time traveler's immunity as well.  Because when they make a change in time, they are not returning to the timeline they came from.  They are instead returning to the altered version of that future with their memories in tact.  So if say the grandfather paradox were to take place, it would not matter because the time traveler would not have come from the same timeline that their decendent had died in.  They would simply be an anomaly existing in the new timeline.  There are other examples as well, but I think the point is clear.

So back to the Chrono Cross healing the scars of time... basically every split that happens is erased, as well as the cause of said split.  That means that Lavos never falls to earth and the events that kick off Chrono Trigger never happen.  In this new timeline, Lavos does not exist as he was the source of spacetime being thrown out of wack to begin with.  But that is not where it stops.  The idea is to MERGE all realities, as well as transfer the existence of beings from those realities into this new one to exist in this new single reality.  Merge memories and weave everything together in perfect harmony.  This is why Kid and Schala are implied to have merged as well.

So what happens to the Reptites and why are humans still around?  Simple really, they both existed in a timeline that is being merged so history is written in a way that both species evolve together.  The Reptites would eventually become Dragonians (which was the race pulled and left behind from the original dinopolis timeline to begin with).  After all, there is nothing saying that Dragonians were not present in the world at the end of Cross.  All we see is Serge and Leena on the beach, and later Schala searching for Serge.  Everything else regarding the world is open to interpretation.  It also confirms that while El Nido was created by FATE after the time crash, it too was written into the merged timeline.

Another major change that takes place would be that the fall of Guardia, Lucca's kidnapping, and Porre being militarized would have never happened either.  Porre would still have grown as a nation sure, but they would not have become the powerhouse they were in Cross for the same reason Guardia would not have fallen.  Dalton would have never raised his army in Porre as his existence in that period was another change to the timeline that would have been erased.  Furthermore Lynx would not have existed, so Lucca would be alive to raise Schala/Kid, which would lead her to become the version of herself we see in the credits.  Crono and Marle would have still met at the fair as well, and likely would have still gotten married as their meeting took place before they time traveled to begin with.

So where does that leave the events of Chrono Trigger, were they pointless.  Not at all, they were essential!  Without the events of CT, the events of CC would have never happened.  CT was simply the first half of a much larger narrative, even though it was never intended to be at the time of its initial release.  The fan games and Radical Dreamers still have their place as well, but under the assumption that we are playing the events of alternate timelines before the Chrono Cross merges them in the end.

In the end, everyone wins and we have closure regarding many potholes (such as Crono and Marle's fate) and people get their happy ending back for CT that was compromised with the events of Chrono Cross.  Everyone wins based on this interpretation of in game events.

So what do you think, does this theory make sense?  Are there any contradictions that I need to address?  Also I must note that this theory is based soley on canon events that take place within Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross.  Widely accepted theory and speculation is irrelevant, as this is a new interpretation from me of confirmed plot points within the mainline games with the intent of providing closure and a solid conclusion under the assumption that a new Chrono game will not be happening.  This is an ongoing theory and I will add tidbits from time to time to address things I may have overlooked as I speculate further.  With that in mind, if you have anything to add everyone is more than welcome to join this analysis and provide input.

Thank you all, and I hope you enjoy this new theory.

29

Kajar Laboratories / Re: Pitch Your Ideal Chrono Cross Remake

« on: June 12, 2020, 11:06:12 pm »

Rework the visuals, add a hard mode, rework the plot to clarify some of the plot holes, add optional side arcs for all characters to give them more meaning, and reveal that Guile is Magus after his memory wipe from the Dream Devourer.

I love Chrono Cross to death as it is, but these improvements would be great with the remake treatment.

30

Crimson Echoes / Re: Still Love this Game!!

« on: May 16, 2020, 12:53:22 pm »

What I don't want is a remake like FFVII, where they use the base game but stray from the source material in a way that takes it in a new direction (though cross would set it up for aomethkng like this to be an alternative timeline, and maybe even set up for a new entry as a twist).

My understanding was that they weren't really changing anything, just expanding on things that were only hinted at or mentioned in passing in the original, but I could easily be mistaken since I haven't been following it closely. Regardless, I think there's plenty of room for such expansion in Chrono Cross while keeping true to the source material, considering how rushed and compressed the final hours are and how little development most of the cast gets.

Nah, it uses the original story as a base but goes in a whole new direction.  It is not a remake like the title says, but a reboot that has its own canon in an alternate reality.  My source is the fact that I am playing the game right now.  While I am enjoying myself, I would not want this for the Chrono series, especially not CT.

Now I agree CC could use some expansion, and maybe even clarification in some spots.  But even then, a FFVIIR style of change would be unwelcome in my eyes.