Author Topic: Is Time Traveler Immunity Perpetual?  (Read 1537 times)

Thought

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Is Time Traveler Immunity Perpetual?
« on: February 14, 2008, 06:14:49 pm »
Call it a bit of curiosity, but does the TTI effect ever “end”?

This stems from a question of what, exactly, is effected by TTI in the first place. Is it the person or the body? That is, by the end of CT, Crono has TTI, but when he dies his body will decompose and the very same materials that have traveled through time will eventually become parts of plants, which will become parts of animals, and eventually people. Would such a person have total TTI, or would only those bits of matter that were originally part of Crono’s body have TTI, or would they have TTI at all?

Such a question isn’t very important to Crono Trigger, as anyone who has part of Crono’s matter in their body either wouldn’t be in the past to effect time or they would have gained TTI in their own right. However, the question is of some importance to Crono Cross; the people of El Nido are derived from Chronopolis and the future (granting them TTI, as soon as they left Chronopolis). It is also implied that the Dragonians would have TTI. If TTI is eternally perpetual and tied to matter, then an individual living in El Nido could have TTI matter in their body and still be in “the past” (the matter’s past, not the person’s). Thus, what would happen if they were to take such actions that would prevent Chronopolis from ever being formed (say, potentially by being part of invading Guardia, or by reviving the apocalypse)? Would they be protected by TTI, would they only be partially protected, or would TTI even be an issue?

That in Home World Chronopolis can become a wasteland while El Nido still exists seems to indicate that, yes matter retains TTI (Chronopolis, which didn’t technically pass through time itself, has no TTI, but the people who left it did and thus their descendants still have it, in part, and can’t be effected by their change the future, even if it brings back the apocalypse).

However, Belthasar should have TTI but he changes his own existence. He gained TTI by being flung from Zeal to 2300 AD (or whatever year around then that he appeared). He then alters his own existence by providing Crono and Company with the Epoch; that action eventually brings about the salvation of the future, but this changes events substantially. Belthasar dies in the old future, but lives in the new future. TTI should have stopped this from happening, even in the new future. He didn’t cause himself to cease to exist, but he did cause himself to not die.

Now this might seem to be an instance of TTI not being in play since Belthasar wasn’t the one who saved the future; but neither did Marle directly kill her own ancestor in the Marle Paradox, yet the Grandfather paradox still was in play (for reasons not fully known, explained, or understood). TTI seems to protect a person from the results of actions one sets in motion as well (like the Mayor of Porre; Crono didn’t make him kind, but he set into action a series of events that resulted in it).

The same goes for Melchior; he should have TTI but when the Black Omen appears (a direct result of him repairing Masamune, which allows Crono and Co to defeat Magus, sending him back to Zeal rather than allowing Lavos to kill him, which results in the raising of the ocean palace) he acts as if it always existed; his past was changed by his own actions.

Indeed, even Magus seems to have lost this effect, at one point (though this is very speculative). That is, Magus summoned Lavos pre-Crono-Time-Travel and for all intents and purposes dies. That fate should be protected by TTI, but through his actions (his willingness to fight Crono and the others) he changed his fate and is sent to Zeal instead (where he certainly doesn’t die).

Mind you, these actions did not result in proper grandfather paradoxes, so perhaps TTI isn’t in play here. However, they are a sort of opposite of the grandfather paradox; instead of effecting time so that they don’t exist, they effect time in such away that they continue to live after they should have died. These actions did effect their past, present, and future selves, something that TTI is supposed to prevent (to my understanding).

These, then, implies that TTI is not constant, that Belthasar and Melchior (and maybe Magus) were able to eventually “loose” this status so that their effects on the timeline could actually influence themselves.

These various instances (Chronopolis & El Nido on one hand and Belthesar, Melchior, and Magus on the other) seem to treat TTI differently; either I am missing something (the most likely option), or it would seem that TTI can end in some manner.

So, then, where did I go wrong (or am I right)?

Vehek

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Re: Is Time Traveler Immunity Perpetual?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2008, 07:59:42 pm »
From what I understand, TTI is not permanent protection from history changes, but rather a guarantee that the same person/thing will come out of a timegate or whatever at the right time.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Is Time Traveler Immunity Perpetual?
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2008, 06:48:42 pm »
Yeah, Vehek has it. The same matter will always emerge from the exit point of a time travel vector, and Time Bastard will always claim that basic matter at the time of the vector's genesis.

Thought

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Re: Is Time Traveler Immunity Perpetual?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2008, 11:26:41 pm »
Sorry, apparently I'm missing something. To quote the Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel

Quote
Now, how does Chrono Trigger avoid the Grandfather Paradox is these examples? The answer is simple: time travelers are immune to the changes they make in the past, and the Grandfather Paradox simply does not exist

I am not seeing how that relates to

From what I understand, TTI is not permanent protection from history changes, but rather a guarantee that the same person/thing will come out of a timegate or whatever at the right time.

Vehek seems to be describing Time Error. Thus, my confussion. I reread the articles and am not seeing the connection.

Vehek

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Re: Is Time Traveler Immunity Perpetual?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2008, 11:37:53 pm »
Quote
Time Traveler's Immunity has other ramifications; namely, the Emergence Preservation Corollary. Imagine that you go back in time to 999 A.D. and murder Crono a full year before he can travel through time. What occurs at 1000 A.D.? Does the ruined future magically come back into place now that Crono cannot conceivably go back in time to 600 A.D.? It would not; under Time Traveler's Immunity, a time traveler's actions are preserved in the past. Think of it like this -- when Crono enters a Gate to 600 A.D., it does not take him to a specific timeline, but merely deposits him somewhere spatially at the time of 600 A.D. in the current timeline.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 11:43:11 pm by Vehek »

Zariel

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Re: Is Time Traveler Immunity Perpetual?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2008, 11:48:22 pm »
Mmm.. I think that TTI works only while time travelling, just as a safety system to keep whatever that travels to alter or lose is own form, abilities or else, and by that to be affected by the changes made to the timeline.
Still when you came to a certain era or place or time, you cease the TTI or better said, you put it on standby, cuz you are now into the flow of time again and even when you don't belong to that place, you are now a part of it... until, of course, you leave again.

That could explain why when you time travel you don't actually change or de-evolve and why you can change into a certain place outside your original timeline. (Example: Magic recieved in the EoT, Dead of Chrono, etc.)
It should work the same way in the Dimensional travelling, because it's... some kind of universal constant.

"When a body traverse his own flux of time or space and reach another one, the body retains all the qualities it had. That way energy is conserved and time or space itself doesn't suffer a critical alteration that may threath his own design."

Something like that.
Well, hope that what I had written was something logical.. .and not just a bunch of silly stuff.
Hope that helps you... too.

That's it. Bye

Thought

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Re: Is Time Traveler Immunity Perpetual?
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2008, 01:12:27 pm »
Quote
Time Traveler's Immunity has other ramifications; namely, the Emergence Preservation Corollary. Imagine that you go back in time to 999 A.D. and murder Crono a full year before he can travel through time. What occurs at 1000 A.D.? Does the ruined future magically come back into place now that Crono cannot conceivably go back in time to 600 A.D.? It would not; under Time Traveler's Immunity, a time traveler's actions are preserved in the past. Think of it like this -- when Crono enters a Gate to 600 A.D., it does not take him to a specific timeline, but merely deposits him somewhere spatially at the time of 600 A.D. in the current timeline.

Ah, I see where you are coming from now. But I still am not following you in how TTI is just "a guarantee that the same person/thing will come out of a gate or whatever at the right time." It is a protection of events in the past being in the past, but wouldn't a Traveler still need immediate protection as well? Marle, for instance, could undertake an action that results in her never being born. The action gets preserved in time, but after that action wouldn't she then disappear (thus not giving us the grandfather paradox, true, but still resulting in a time-traveler not realizing their own changes to the past, which seems to be in contradiction to the games). On a lesser scale, let us consider the Mayor of Porre. Crono goes back in time to give the ancestor Jerky. In doing so, his action is preserved in the past, via TTI. However, as you seem to indicate, Crono himself would not be protected. Thus, the Crono that leaves 600AD would have been changed by his own actions (though those actions still occurred), and as such he would have no idea why he needed to give the ancestor the Jerky, or that the Mayor of Porre was ever a bastage (or would even memories be covered under the "same person" bit?)

Perhaps you might better understand where I am coming from (and thus better see my confusion) if I explain why I think this is an important question.

The grandfather paradox is a paradox because the effect alters the cause in such a way that the effect itself would change (thus negating the effect that altered the cause in the first place). We can represent this by the following (where C represents cause and E represents effect)

If C=1, then E=1
If E=1, then C=0
If C=0, then E=0
If E=0, then C=1
repeat

We get a paradox that just can't be resolved. TTI solves this problem in the following manner (where T represents TTI):

T=1

If C=1, then E=1
If T=1, Stop
If T=0, then
>If E=1, then C=0
>If C=0, then E=0
>If E=0, then C=1
>repeat

This nicely solves the Grandfather paradox; it should never occur in the game. However, the question is if T may sometimes = 0. This relates directly to the Marle Paradox, as she is effected by the Grandfather Paradox even though it would seem like TTI should prevent it. If T can toggle, then the Marle paradox might be resolved through the following

T=1

If C=1, then E=1
If T=1, Stop
If T=0, then
>If E=1, then C=0
>If C=0, then E=0
>If E=0, then C=1
>repeat

T=0
Run line 2

Or, to put that in less quasi-code-y terms; the Marle Paradox may easily be accounted for if TTI protects the individual and if TTI is not permanent. That is, Marle travels back in time and is protected by TTI, so that the Grandfather Paradox (her causing herself not to be born) doesn't affect her. At some point, she looses TTI, thus she suddenly is affected by the Grandfather Paradox, thus she disappears. However, her actions in the past are still preserved by TTI, so the Grandfather Paradox doesn't cycle; she stops herself from existing, but the action which caused her not to exist persists. Meanwhile, Crono and Lucca time travel and gain TTI, so that when the action which sparks the Grandfather Paradox occurs, they are not affected.

As Marle is no longer protected by TTI (and as such, ceases to exist), Crono, Lucca, and Frog are able to undertake actions which restore Marle's existence, allowing her to come back. She then time travels again and regains TTI.

Of course, for such a theory to work it would 1) need to be in line with established TTI theory (thus, why I asked if it is permanent, and thus my subsequent attempts to confirm that I am understanding TTI), 2) and one would need to establish a specific means for one to loose TTI (as just saying that it was randomly lost is little better than claiming that the Entity Did It).

The first issue is still at hand, however I believe I can provide an answer to the second issue.

Consider Chronopolis and El Nido, as indicated in a previous post. The residents of El Nido, though they do not Time Travel themselves (and thus are not protected by TTI), are able to change their own future (by bringing back the apocalypse). The original scientists from Cronopolis would be protected (as they have TTI), but not subsequent generations. Thus, the original scientists would have their actions be preserved, but not the long term results. Unless, that is, TTI is maintained. How might it be maintained? A simple refusal to reintegrate into the timeline; FATE prevents El Nido from truly being a part of the times that it lives through, thus TTI is maintained.

Marle, on the other hand, integrated herself into the time that she found herself. I would claim that this is what caused her to loose TTI. We see the same with Melchior, Belthasar, and Magus; they find themselves in different times and make their lives there. They cease being time travelers and become time immigrants. Thus, they loose TTI. Even though their "actions are in the past," those actions are not preserved and can be changed. Belthasar's actions (in particular, dying) can then be changed when the timeline changes (which indeed is necessary for Crono Cross to even happen... or else Belthasar in the game is a very vibrant corpse).

But it would seem that I am incorrect in some manner on my understanding of TTI. Not sure where, though.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Is Time Traveler Immunity Perpetual?
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2008, 01:07:42 am »
Marle travels back to 65,000,000 B.C. from 1010 A.D. and destroys the world. Her stepping back into time creates a new timeline (and discards the old one) affixed to her perspective as a time traveler, totally disconnecting her from the previous one. In this new world in which no humans are born after 65,000,000 B.C., the idea is that in 1010 A.D., the matter that would have made Marle (whether it is dust, scorched rocks, or whatever now) will be shunted to the Darkness Beyond Time at the moment of her original departure according to Time Bastard, and Marle will always step through that Gate in 65,000,000 B.C. in complete form.

So under current theory, Crono still shows up in the bright 2300 A.D. future for a time, but suddenly disappears at the time of his original version's departure while on the journey of Chrono Trigger. It is that old self who has TTI, and this guarantees that he appears as he did when he created new timelines back on the adventure. So, Belthasar's legacy of encouraging time travel through the Epoch would be preserved, but Belthasar as we knew him in the ruined future ceases to exist; the clock is reset on his life to the moment he steps through the Gate in 2300 A.D., but he now finds a wonderful future. Since he stayed there and died there, there is no Time Bastard to negate his existence. But Crono left for other eras after visiting 2300 A.D. (perhaps 5 hours after), and so 5 hours into this bewildered, "the future is nice" Crono's life, he'll be shunted to the DBT to preserve conservation of matter.

It is not the most appealing solution, but it is totally preservative of the quest and rough physical laws. I got off on a Time Bastard tangent, though. So TTI all comes down to matter; it will always emerge in time in the form of the object or person who traveled back in time, created the new timeline, affixed future history to the perspective of his or her changes, and was disconnected from causal relationships in the discarded timeline before.