Author Topic: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist  (Read 4283 times)

Eske

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2009, 08:20:20 pm »
I think many of the theories on the Compendium need to be completely revised. All of the discussions occurring here recently have shed a lot of light on some things.

For example, we now have Dimensional Bastard and Dimensional Travellers Immunity, PTime as a good model of the Chronoverse, exceptions to TTI and TB after the dimensional reunification in Cross, a concise ending theory for Cross based on this, and an alternate explanation for the Marle paradox that fits with all of the aforementioned theories.

So TTI is fair game. I think it is too solid to say it "doesn't exist", but it is fair to question whether it exists in the same way that the Compendium envisions it. I like Zeality's idea that only the physical structure of the universe is sent to the DBT, while the "consciousnesses" or "dreams" of individuals living in that timeline are sent to the most similar incarnations of themselves within the new timeline. This would seem to be a less cruel nature of the Chronoverse. But if this were true, we would need to support it somehow. We just can't assume something based on no evidence. And we would have to figure out how this fits in with Marle's situation.

Well, you have support with the Frog/Leene ending.  Marle exits the gate with frog traits, yet has no memory of ever having them.  Her body was changed, but original consciousness remained.

But wait, doesn't the dino age ending refute that?  nope.  that ending is taken from a "before the adventure" perspective, so that Crono would never remember being human.

So there you have it.  One ending shows the changes to the body but not the mind (for time travellers) and one shows the changes to both body and mind (for non-time travellers).  They are joke endings, sure - but I think that we were given more to work with all along - it's too bad we dismissed those endings.

By this, Melchior would still have no recollection of meeting Crono in 12,000BC, which is consistent with the game. 

TTI reformation.... maybe it is time...   8)

chrono eric

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2009, 08:51:35 pm »
Alrighty then, let's start a new thread about it  :D. I'll leave that to you Eske. I'm going to start another thread detailing DTI and DB so that people don't have to dig through the "Time Devourer's Defeat" thread to find our analysis and discuss it.

EDIT: Done. I slightly modified your proof of DTI Eske and my proof of DB to make them a little more straightforward. Let me know if you have a problem with it and I can change it however you want.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 09:27:03 pm by chrono eric »

Thought

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2009, 03:24:06 pm »
First, let me address why the Marle Paradox is not a Paradox. Second, let me address your theory, FouCapitan, specifically.

MARLE PARADOX

The Marle Paradox is only a problem if one inaccurately pinpoints the event that caused a change to the timeline.

The Paradox assumes that Marle's appearance in 600AD is enough to change time drastically enough in order to Marle to have never existed in 1000AD so that Crono would not have had a reason to travel back to 600AD to even save Marle.

However, such an assumption is contrary to the themes of Chrono Trigger. Time does not change until the actions necessary to change it are taken. The emphasis is placed on the individual taking action.

Crono starting his quest to defeat Lavos does not itself cause Lavos to be defeated. It is only the actual defeat of Lavos that causes time to change. The actual action. Crono's mere presence in the past does not change the future.

We can apply that to the Marle Paradox as well. Marle's mere presence in 600AD must not have been enough to cause a significant change to the timeline that would prevent Crono and Lucca from traveling back in time to save her.

As the reason Marle might cease to exist is that Leene would have never been found (or so the game presents), logically Marle's presence in 600AD did not prevent Leene from being found. She was a poor substitute, so we might assume that shortly the King and others would have realized their mistake and called the search back on.

So even with Marle in 600AD, the key factor that resulted in her non-existence must not have been caused by her.

Next, Crono traveled to 600AD. If his mere existence in the period would have resulted in Marle ceasing to exist, then she would have ceased to exist by the time he got to the castle. Why? Because every time we see time change in the game, that change is immediate. Therefore, Crono's actions up until she disappears could not have caused her to cease to exist.

Whatever the impetus was that caused Marle to disappear, it could not have been from mere presence in 600AD. And whatever caused the disappearance could not have happened until around when she disappeared. Since Lucca shows up right after Marle disappeared, we may reasonably assume Lucca was already in 600AD when that event occurred, which singles that while Lucca stayed in 1000AD, that was a timeline in which Leene had still been found. It was only after she traveled, and subsequently only after she obtained TTI, that Marle ceased to exist.

So while we don't know the action that caused it, we know that all three of them were in 600AD whenever the action that destroyed Marle occurred.

But that only addresses half the paradox. TTI should have protected Marle from the changes that destroyed her, shouldn't it?

Maybe.

For one, her transportation to 600AD was non-standard. It may be that TTI was not granted to her because of that (maybe only certain modes of time travel grant TTI).

For another, TTI only protects one's appearance in a time period, not one's actions there or indeed one's continued existence. While TTI seems to preserve the memories of Crono & Co, this is the only time that we see someone cease to exist because of an action. These are concepts on a different scale. The matter that comprised Marle, having never formed Marle, might have been needed elsewhere, as it were (for different people, plants, animals, etc) and thus Marle had to be destroyed in order to preserve the conservation of mass/energy. The conservation overruled any protection that TTI might bestow.

As we never see another situation where these two concepts come into conflict, we can't know. However, there are plenty of possible explanations. Until such time as more evidence comes in regarding the matter (unlikely), it does not make sense to throw out TTI just because we don't know which answer to the Marle Paradox is the right answer (as there are answers).

FouCapitan's Theory

To note (it seems like I have to harp on this), at no point in the game is it stated that the Entity actively attempts to have Crono & Co defeat Lavos. That is their goal; all we are told of the Entity is that it wants to relive its memories and share them. This is important because you essentially replace Time Traveler Immunity with "The Entity Did It," except we have no firm reason to suppose that the Entity even had a desire to do it.

TTI preserves one's appearance in a time period, nothing more or less. Melchior at the Fair doesn't recognize Crono and Marle because he is the original Melchior, send to 1000 from the original Ocean Palace Incident which did not include them. Whatever changes Magus, Crono, and the others make in Zeal, 1000 AD Melchior won’t know about them because his memories are those of the original Melchior. Any changes that occur to 1000AD, however, he would be aware of, because after he appeared, he would have lived in a world with those changes. Only his appearance, not the subsequent actions, are protected.

@Eske
Marle doesn't disappear when Ayla leaves the past because, once again, time does not change until the actions are made that will change it.

Let us say that Ayla in the game is 25. Then let us say that she will have a child when she is 30 that is Marle's ancestor. Therefore, until Ayla is 30, she cannot not sorry, the double negative is needed have the child, so Marle's can't cease to exist because Ayla isn't in the past until Ayla is 30.

Just as mere presence in a timeline can't change time, mere absences can't change it either.

I'll have to take a look at your thread(s) (I've been lax in participating in the analysis forum for a few months). From what has been said here, I think you're explaining something I've been trying to convince people of since septemberish 2007. As such, I'm very interested in what you have to say on your matter.

chrono eric

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2009, 06:18:56 pm »
The matter that comprised Marle, having never formed Marle, might have been needed elsewhere, as it were (for different people, plants, animals, etc) and thus Marle had to be destroyed in order to preserve the conservation of mass/energy. The conservation overruled any protection that TTI might bestow.

This is similar to the conclusion we reached in the Marle Paradox thread. I'll give you the synopsis of it since that is another one of our ginormous discussion threads. Basically, we concluded that the Marle paradox could be explained with a modified form of Time Bastard. What matters is not really the point at which the timeline was altered so that Marle ceases to exist, but that she ceases to exist in 600 AD at all. In the new timeline that Marle does not exist in, the atoms that composed her body are now spread out and part of other plants, animals, and people. So to truly conserve mass/energy, TB would have to erase from existence all of the atoms that once composed Marle's body. So would TB make trillions upon trillions of atomic-sized black gates for this purpose? What if TB takes the path of least resistance, and instead of wiping from existence all of the atoms that once composed Marle's body in 1000 AD, it instead just TB's Marle in 600 AD at the exact moment that the timeline was altered so that she would cease to exist? This is a very, very simple explanation to the Marle Paradox, and I think it is the best one anyone has raised so far.

Thought

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2009, 06:41:56 pm »
This is similar to the conclusion we reached in the Marle Paradox thread.

...

Basically, we concluded that the Marle paradox could be explained with a modified form of Time Bastard.


Heh, actually most Marle Paradox thread's get to that at some point or another.

Though considering it more, I'd have to go with that I was wrong, and you too.

I basically was supposing a backward TB (marle was destroyed to reallocate her matter). I believe you were essentially saying the same thing, correct?

Which means the theory would be bunk. If Time Bastard can shunt either the original or the duplicate to the DBT, then why at any point one and not the other? That is, why in this case only would Marle be choosen instead of everything else? Because it is the path of least resistance? It takes the same amount of energy to move 10 one pound bricks up a hill as it does to move 1 ten pound brick up a hill Similarly, shunting countless atoms should be just as difficult as shunting a single person.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 01:27:21 pm by Thought »

chrono eric

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2009, 07:22:31 pm »
Heh, actually most Marle Paradox thread's get to that at some point or another.

Really? I haven't gone back and looked at previous threads, but you would think the Compendium would update it's articles about the Marle Paradox to include that since it is so obviously not as big of a paradox as originally thought.

I basically was supposing a backward TB (marle was destroyed to reallocate her matter). I believe you were essentially saying the same thing, correct?

Yep.

Which means the theory would be bunk. If Time Bastard can shunt either the original or the duplicate to the DBT, then why at any point one and not the other?

Well, lets address the first part by working out a simple situation:

A Time Traveller travels at Time X to Time X-100, altering the past and sending the future to the DBT. In the new timeline:

The Time Traveller appears at Time X-100 due to TTI. He disappears at Time X due to TB - in accordance with traditional theory.

Matter/Energy is conserved here. What appears in one place is taken away in another. Now let's say that in this new timeline our Time Traveller travels once more to Time X-10. Now you have this situation:

Time Traveller appears at Time X-100 due to TTI. He the disappears due to TB and reappears at time X-10. He presumably coexists with his former self until Time X, in which his former self disappears due to TB.

But why does his former self have to disappear due to TB? Why can't the present version of our time travelling friend? In both cases, matter/energy would be preserved. If we look at TTI/TB solely from the perspective of matter/energy conservation then we cannot get an answer to this question. We have to invoke some other property of TTI/TB. This property, I would say, is that TTI and TB are like two sides of the same coin. Every TTI event is connected to the TB event it was associated with. Or another way of saying this is that every time travel event has a TTI and TB event associated with it (except perhaps in Marle's situation). If you look at it this way, then it is clear that the present version of the Time Traveller will never disappear due to TB instead of his past counterpart.

That is, why in this case only would Marle be choosen instead of everything else? Because it is the path of least resistance? It takes the same amount of energy to move 10 one pound bricks up a hill as it does to move 1 ten pound brick up a hill Similarly, shunting countless atoms should be just as difficult as shunting a single person.

Yes, but this is rather irrelevant for our purposes. Because the Chronoverse is a fictitious universe, and because we are talking about fictitious laws of that universe, working with real life situations is not always useful. The matter/energy example is useful because it is easily applicable and explains major plot situations. And because no one has ever created a real time portal, how are we to make assumptions about the energy requirements of it? Perhaps the opening of the portal is the part that requires a large amount of energy, and not the size of the portal itself. An analagous example would be the activation energy of chemical reactions. Once the energy of the system is raised above the activation energy, the reaction will proceed without interference and the extent of the reaction can be controlled by lessening or increasing the energetic input to the system to a much smaller degree than the activation energy.

Time portals in the Chronoverse could be an analagous example for all we know. The energetic part might be getting them started in the first place, in which case opening one portal of great size would be an easier path than opening a trillion of minute size.


Eske

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2009, 10:00:18 pm »
Quote from: Thought
@Eske
Marle doesn't disappear when Ayla leaves the past because, once again, time does not change until the actions are made that will change it.

Let us say that Ayla in the game is 25. Then let us say that she will have a child when she is 30 that is Marle's ancestor. Therefore, until Ayla is 30, she cannot not sorry, the double negative is needed have the child, so Marle's can't cease to exist because Ayla isn't in the past until Ayla is 30.

Yes! This is exactly what I believe to have happened.  In the other thread, I mention "Time X", or the Point of Certainty.  Up until Time X (Ayla's child's birth), history will remain unchanged. But if Time X passes by, even if the child might still be born at a later time, the generations that follow will vanish until the child is born.   With the Leene example, her time of being saved/brought to the castle represents Time X.  Marle forces Time X to eventually go by and even though the Queen may be saved (and is), Marle still has to vanish at Time X.  Things don't happen until the happen though, so until these changes come to pass relative to Marle, Crono and Lucca will not experience the effects.

Quote from: Thought
That is, why in this case only would Marle be choosen instead of everything else? Because it is the path of least resistance? It takes the same amount of energy to move 10 one pound bricks up a hill as it does to move 1 ten pound brick up a hill Similarly, shunting countless atoms should be just as difficult as shunting a single person.


Ah, but what matter vanishes?  With conventional Time Bastard, the matter that needs to be destroyed is already identified - but in a situation where an individual no longer exists, what matter could claim to be apart of Marle?   In 1000AD she no longer exists, there is no corresponding matter to her anymore.  It isn't about "what would have been apart of her" because nothing ever was.....anymore.

Yea, I don't know how to explain it well, but I think you can see what I mean.  The only remaining record of the person who shouldn't exist is the one sitting in a castle in 600AD.  It isn't really about least resistance,  its the only option.

As for why conventional TB works the opposite way: It keeps continuity.   If I go back in time and make some changes, resulting in an alternate version of myself being born - that version has to vanish when i time travel.  If it doesn't, I will be TB'ed upon exiting the gate, NOT able to make the changes I made thus the past will change again -  resulting in yet another version of myself being born which replaces the first changed self.

^ It loops the past once before equalizing again.

With the Marle example, she is no longer able to exist in 1000AD because of Leene, disappears, and still doesn't exist in 1000AD - there is no loop because she doesn't have a future counterpart to change.

And that's why it works....

maybe  :D

chrono eric

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2009, 11:43:29 pm »
Ah, but what matter vanishes?  With conventional Time Bastard, the matter that needs to be destroyed is already identified - but in a situation where an individual no longer exists, what matter could claim to be apart of Marle?   In 1000AD she no longer exists, there is no corresponding matter to her anymore.  It isn't about "what would have been apart of her" because nothing ever was.....anymore.

This is an easy question. The matter that has to vanish to conserve matter/energy is the matter that composed Marle's body when she exited the gate in 600 AD. Now you have a duplication of matter. In 600 AD the atoms that would compose Marle's body in 1000 AD still exist within other plants, animals, and people. There are two copies of them now - the ones that were originally in 600 AD and the ones that compose Marle's body in 600 AD. In 1000 AD, Marle no longer exists, but those atoms still do. For matter/energy conservation in the timeline as a whole, either the atoms have to vanish in 1000 AD, or Marle herself has to vanish in 600 AD.

Eske

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2009, 11:51:01 pm »
I know - but my point was that from 1000AD's viewpoint, no matter ever composed Marle.  So yes, while an outside observer might be able to identify "what went where", in this new timeline, nothing was ever Marle's....anymore.  It was always apart of those plants and animals.


chrono eric

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2009, 11:58:12 pm »
Right, but the timeline could still recognize which atoms once composed Marle's body, because there would be duplicates of them elsewhere.

I guess I don't really follow then Eske  :D. Apologies if I'm missing something. I'm tired as hell and about to conk out here.

Eske

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2009, 10:39:48 pm »
Right, but the timeline could still recognize which atoms once composed Marle's body, because there would be duplicates of them elsewhere.

I guess I don't really follow then Eske  :D. Apologies if I'm missing something. I'm tired as hell and about to conk out here.

Yea, you're right lol - I don't know what was going through my head   :D

Thought

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2009, 03:20:52 pm »
Time portals in the Chronoverse could be an analagous example for all we know. The energetic part might be getting them started in the first place, in which case opening one portal of great size would be an easier path than opening a trillion of minute size.

Which means all a Time Bastard has to do in order to not be shunted to the DBT is trim his nails or get a hair cut; or in other words, spread matter from his body out to a greater degree than the original did.

Hmm... actually, that's an interesting idea. We see in CC that Doreen can seemingly transfer her mind into the Masamune. If she can, why not others? Which is to say, could a Time Bastard transfer his or her mind into a body made from other "stuff" in the timeline, and thus while the old body might be shunted to the DBT, the "soul" would survive? All a TB would have to do is touch a Dragon's Tear.

chrono eric

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2009, 09:54:53 pm »
Which means all a Time Bastard has to do in order to not be shunted to the DBT is trim his nails or get a hair cut; or in other words, spread matter from his body out to a greater degree than the original did.

Damn, you're right. That is predicted by this, isn't it? To say it only happens in extreme conditions is a bit of a stretch with no supporting evidence.

Hmm... actually, that's an interesting idea. We see in CC that Doreen can seemingly transfer her mind into the Masamune. If she can, why not others? Which is to say, could a Time Bastard transfer his or her mind into a body made from other "stuff" in the timeline, and thus while the old body might be shunted to the DBT, the "soul" would survive? All a TB would have to do is touch a Dragon's Tear.

I actually thought of something similar to this, but I saw no real practical application for it (as in predicting or explaining events in the Chronoverse) so I just set it aside. Perhaps it is worth working out?

Vehek

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2009, 10:05:58 pm »
Which means all a Time Bastard has to do in order to not be shunted to the DBT is trim his nails or get a hair cut; or in other words, spread matter from his body out to a greater degree than the original did.
I don't know if this is still revelant, because of its age and any changes in theories, but:
TB operates in the same way.  It doesn't matter that a person contains different atoms than their time bastard after years of divergent timelines; the elemental energy is the same.

chrono eric

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Re: Time Traveller's Immunity Does Not Exist
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2009, 01:31:12 am »
Actually that is relevant, and is something that we overlooked. Lets say you are a time traveller and you time travel for 20 years. The atoms that compose your body are now different from the atoms that compose the various versions of you that are Time Bastarded away. This may potentially derail the "reverse TB" theory if we use energy/matter conservation as a basis for it.

However, maybe not now that I think about it - each time travel event would presumably be associated with a TTI and a TB event. In those cases, the matter that composed the time traveller and the time bastard would be more or less identical. So every TB event that took place up until the "present" for our time traveller would still be accounted for on the basis of matter/energy conservation. Just because the present version of the time traveller is not composed of the same matter as the original version doesn't matter.

And "elemental energy" is just the same as saying "the Entity did it" - it's invoking nonsensical BS to attempt to validate the theory.