Author Topic: The Pendant and the Telepod  (Read 7005 times)

Thought

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The Pendant and the Telepod
« on: March 04, 2008, 01:03:04 pm »
Edit: Theory Updated 03/11/08, see end of this post for details.

This was originally mentioned by V_Translanka over in the “I’m Curious…” thread, but I thought I’d bring it over here for proper discussion (that thread got derailed fairly easily).

To summarize the situation:

Problem: When Marle steps into the Telepod, she gets teleported into the past and drops the pendant. Crono does not drop it. Why is there this difference?

Compendium’s Current Stance: The Entity did it (not just the gate, but why Marle dropped the pendant and Crono did not).

There are three possible solutions to the stated problem (let me know if I am missing one):

1) The entity did it (currently accepted by the Compendium)

2) She happened to drop it.

3) The pendant dropped itself.

The evidence for the first solution is more of lack of evidence; the pendant falling is necessary for Crono to start time traveling, and thus it is in the Entity’s best interest to ensure he could follow Marle. In the absence of another explanation, this one fits.

The second solution is rather curious as the pendant would seemingly be hanging around Marle’s neck. It should no more have been left behind than her clothing or weapon. It may be that surprise or shock caused her to drop it, but still, it was around her neck. That would have to be some amazing surprise.

However, it should be noted that the pendant is dropped three times in the game. When Marle and Crono first meet (apparently just bumping into each other) the pendant goes flying several feet. Then there is the Telepod incident. And finally, when Crono dies via Lavos, the pendant survives and seems to actively find Marle and the others. Is the Entity responsible for each of this instances or should we just take it that the pendant has a crappy clasp?

And finally, the pendant may have “dropped” itself. As V_Translanka pointed out, “it's easy to forget (so early in the game especially) that the Pendant seems to have a mind of it's own.”

The Pendant’s independent mind is displayed after the Ocean Palace incident; Marle and the others was up on the shore and the Earthbound find them being almost guarded by the pendant.

If the pendant has its own mind, then it could have dropped itself.

It has been suggested that this mind is Doreen, the sister of Masa and Mune. In Chrono Cross she displays the ability to inhabit objects, same as Masa and Mune, and at one point she appears next to kid, who happens to be holding the pendant.

It should also be noted that in Chrono Cross the pendant apparently has the power to rewind time a little. Furthermore, in Chrono Trigger the Pendant has the power to apparently open gates. Masa and Mune display the power of opening gates as well (by using their power on the incomplete time egg). Logically, Doreen would have that power as well; the power to influence time.

Doreen, then, may have caused the pendant to drop from Marle specifically so that Crono would pick it up and follow. Likewise, it drops from Crono when he is killed so that Doreen might continue to live. She may have even had a hand in the introduction of Marle and Crono.

This theory has an advantage over the “The Entity did it” theory in that we have an identified acting agent performing an action that is certainly within its power and that does not necessitate the direct involvement of a being that seems to prefer a hand’s off approach.

To my remembrance, Doreen only speaks a few times in Chrono Trigger. Here are the lines, for your benefit.

Quote
[NA Doreen, Enhasa]
This is the eternal kingdom of Zeal, where dreams can come true.
But at what price?
Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man... or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashimi?
Never assume that what you see and feel is real!
I'm Doreen.
Seek the hidden path, and open the doors of knowledge, each in turn.

[RT Doreen, Enharsa]
This is the eternal Magic Kingdom Zeal. The place where all desires come true......
However, there's no telling how high the price for that will reach......
The world that you see with your eyes and the world that I see with my eyes may be completely different things.
Listening? All that exists in the universe are the destinies of lives. Don't think that only what you can see and touch are reality.
I'm Doreen. Seek the way that was shut. Get the order correct and open the door of knowledge.

Edit 03/11/08: The consensus of the thread so far is that indeed the Pendant is the acting party that caused the pendant to drop when Marle went through the gate and that also caused Crono NOT to drop it when he went through. To summarize the reasons for this, the series heavily implies and illustrates that the Pendant itself is capable both of independent action and locomotion.

Corollary: From this it is also taken that Doreen, the "sister" of Masa and Mune and a member of the dream species, inhabits the pendant and is the intelligence behind the pendant's action. This is also implied through the series, primarily Chrono Cross. To note, the consensus does not necessitate that Doreen is in fact the agent in the pendant, but it does conform to current theory.

Current Debate: Currently, the exact extent that Doreen is related to the Entity is under discussion, as well as the Entity's roll in the series in general (so as to determine how close "The Pendant Did It" is to "The Entity Did It").
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 11:46:54 am by Thought »

BROJ

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2008, 01:56:15 pm »
I like the Doreen(Dream) theory; it's quite possibly the best theory I've *ever* heard about the pendent parodox and your explanation ties up a couple of loose ends.
I always thought the "Entity did it" theory was more of a cop-out, but unfortunately it was the best theory that I knew of at the time...

So Belthazar probably used Doreen to motivate Crono and Co. to time travel and eventually destroy Lavos, as per his ability to orchestrate events in time; clearly demonstrated in CC. Thank you for bringing this light, it definitely clears up some *potential* parodoxes.  :D

V_Translanka

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2008, 02:47:24 pm »
I think that both 1 & 3 are not only logical explanations, but ONE IN THE SAME! Doreen along w/Masa & Mune are corporeal beings which seemingly come from inanimate objects (of course Doreen actually coming from the Pendant is debatable). One of Dreamstone's properties is it's apparent ability to absorb Magic energy. The Masamune, the Pendant & the Mammon Machine all show this ability: the Masamune absorbs Magus' Magic Def & the Mammon Machine's Lavos' Magic energy, the Pendant powers up by absorbing Lavos' Magic energy via the Mammon Machine, & the Mammon Machine itself draws upon Lavos' Magic energy directly. Of course, Lavos itself draws energy from the planet, i.e. the Entity. I think this energy absorbing circle is important to note. It's what makes me believe that the Dreamstone siblings are in fact avatars, or at least agents of the Entity. So, in this way, I think it's easy to say that if Doreen, acting through the Pendant is what's the cause of Marle dropping the Pendant (perhaps on all occasions), I think it's easy enough to say that she does so because the Entity wills it so.

Quote from: Thought
It should also be noted that in Chrono Cross the pendant apparently has the power to rewind time a little. Furthermore, in Chrono Trigger the Pendant has the power to apparently open gates. Masa and Mune display the power of opening gates as well (by using their power on the incomplete time egg). Logically, Doreen would have that power as well; the power to influence time.

Was that the Pendant that did that rewind thing? Wasn't that the Astral Amulet? I think ZeaLitY would know better than me on that subject...my CC knowledge has always been sketchy at best *heh heh*

<~*POST 4000*~>

Thought

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2008, 03:07:55 pm »
I think that both 1 & 3 are not only logical explanations, but ONE IN THE SAME! Doreen along w/Masa & Mune are corporeal beings which seemingly come from inanimate objects (of course Doreen actually coming from the Pendant is debatable).

...

Was that the Pendant that did that rewind thing? Wasn't that the Astral Amulet? I think ZeaLitY would know better than me on that subject...my CC knowledge has always been sketchy at best *heh heh*

For the latter part first, according to the Pendant article, yes; the pendant did that rewind thing. Not sure how "official" that is, however.

And for the first part, the Dream Species (or just Masa, Mune, and Doreen) might be the vicars of the Entity but I think it is too far a stretch to say that they are one in the same. To offer an example; the Pope is supposed to be God's vicar on Earth. There is an important distinction between the two, however.

Even at that, the only descriptions we have about the origins of the Dream Species makes their role as the direct avatars of the Entity a bit... dubious. From the retranslation, chapter 18:

Quote from: Young Woman, in Zeal
Born of dreams, returning to dreams... Beings such as that exist as well.

At times, human prayers and desires borrow the power of Lavos-sama and materialize.

The Masa, Mune, and Doreen might have some connection with the entity, but they also have a connection to Humans. Perhaps they are Masato Kato's version of Jane, a bridge between humans and the entity.

Of course, to my knowledge Turnip was given life without the power of Lavos or Dreamstone, so that quote might not be terribly accurate.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2008, 04:05:59 pm »
Remember guys, this game is a fantasy-science fiction role playing games (thus turnip, in my opinion)...

but the doreen theory makes A LOT of sense.  it reduces the deus ex machina factor of the pendant.

V_Translanka

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2008, 05:25:41 pm »
Please don't bring up "it's just game mechanics" or "it's just a fantasy game" types of arguments into the Chrono Analysis forums...They just don't have any real place here.

But anyways...Even if they aren't direct avatars of the Entity in some way, I think that at the very least it'd be much easier for the Entity, the dreamer of the series, to manipulate them.

Glennleo

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2008, 05:54:29 pm »
Glad to see some serious arguments and theories in this thread. That other thread was getting ridiculous.  (Why I posted to lock it up.)

Hmmm. It's tough to say how I really feel on the subject, becuase for the longest time I thought she simply vaporized, and the pendant sort of had no where to go but to fall down onto the telepad.

Which is weird considering it should do the exact same thing when Crono had it in his possession.
So I guess I am partially swayed towards a "higher power" playing a role in the whole event.

I've never liked the whole "Entity" thing myself, but it's more or less simply a name or representation for fate, and not the FATE from CC. Just regular, run of the mill, fate. So giving it a persona, or being to represent it,  makes it more humanized and let's us wrap our minds around the whole idea of such a thing existing.

If I'm understanding the "Entity" incorrectly please let me know, but that's how I see it. 

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2008, 06:56:46 pm »
listen, we all know that there's a lot of deus ex machina in this series, and our goal is trying to reduce that through detailed analysis - trust me, i understand that.  we don't need a forum police, thankyaverymuch.

anywho, it makes a lot of sense for doreen to be the avatar of the pendant; it helps reduce a lot of the deus ex machina game mechanics i mentioned earlier (thus the current conversation and analysis) and it provides a means to tie together various loose ends (the nature of the pendant, the existence of doreen, how the pendant mechanics worked to spark the adventure).  i have lurked on this forum for years and i can confidently say that this theory makes sense - it's one of the most intriguing theories proposed.  plus it makes a lot of sense concerning concepts we've tried to understand.

i don't necessarily buy whole entity / cosmic fate theories anymore, and this helps reduce that effect on chrono universe.

we're really onto something here.

V_Translanka

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2008, 07:20:44 pm »
entity ex machina ;)

But, no, Glennleo...the Entity isn't supposed to be a representative of any form of fate really. In fact, if anything, it would be the complete opposite because the Entity is fighting against it's 'fate'. The Entity is the planet. It makes the events of Trigger occur (at what point & how it steps in is debatable) in order to change it's fate (it's practical death at the hands of Lavos). A prime theme in the series is that you're not destined to one 'fate' at all and that it's possible to change what appears to be an obvious conclusion. The course of events in the Chrono world are seemingly not set in stone.

Glennleo

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2008, 08:16:10 pm »
Ahh OK. I basically had the concept completely turned around. DOH!

Oh well. I'll give my opinion on this later after I type up my paper on the Boston Massacre, and now that I know truly what the Entity means.


Thought

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2008, 11:23:19 am »
But anyways...Even if they aren't direct avatars of the Entity in some way, I think that at the very least it'd be much easier for the Entity, the dreamer of the series, to manipulate them.

The Entity was able to drag Dinopolis into the Keystone Dimension at the drop of a hat; I'm not sure the ease of manipulating the dream species would really be an issue for a being like that.

But to what extent does the entity desire Crono and Co to actually defeat Lavos (that is, to what extent are its actions directly opposed to fate)? Most of our knowledge about the Entity comes from Robo in Fiona's Forest. If we can take his words as the true intention of the Entity, then its goal in opening the gates wasn't for Crono and Co to defeat Lavos, rather for them to experience important moments in the planet's history. This conversation gives the sense more that the planet didn't want to die alone, as it were, not that the planet was looking for salvation.

We also learn a bit about the fate of the planet from the Mother Brain computer (again, if we can trust the source). The Planet would recover after Lavos' spawn left. The Lavoids would seem to be a disease, parasites, but not fatal ones.

Thus, in the Lavos Timeline it would seem that the Entity was reliving particularly painful moments in its past, but that its ultimate death was not related to Lavos itself.

This seems to place the emphasis more on the Entity wanting company while it relived its memories and less on it wanting to change its fate.

Crono and Co were the ones to act; at least in Chrono Trigger, the Entity is very passive and willing to accept its fate (even in Chrono Cross, the Entity doesn't seem to take many steps to counteract the Time Devourer). Indeed, that may well be a theme of the series; not only the ability to defy fate, but the willingness to act. The Entity has the power to stop Lavos, but accepts it. Crono and Co, so puny in comparison, do not accept it and act, changing their fate and the fate of powers far greater than their keen. Sort of like Hobbits in Lord of the Rings.

V_Translanka

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2008, 12:27:00 pm »
Yeah, I just meant to accentuate their close relationship to one another.

I don't know about the other stuff though...I mean, I'm sure you can see it that way...but I think it's obvious that the Entity is more than just showing it's memories. In fact, I think that's just a way the team was trying to interpret the gates & this extra-dimensional being they didn't know much about. I mean, showing someone something and bringing someone into something seems a stark difference. Saying that it somehow doesn't foresee that Crono & Co. would intervene upon seeing the destruction of their planet seems to demean the Entity's intelligence somewhat.

The Mother Brain says that the planet will recover after the spawn leave? I don't remember that...what's the exact quote? Retrans version?

And about the Devourer of Time...I don't know if the Entity knew it was a thing at all. I mean, technically it never even comes into existence! The Entity never has contact with it because it's always in the DBT.

Thought

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2008, 12:51:39 pm »
Ah, but could the Entity have forseen Crono & Co's actions? If it knew what they were going to do, then wouldn't that mean that by doing what it expected of them they were fulfilling fate? ;)

And yes, Mother Brain says that in the retranslation. Chapter 25, part 2.

Quote
(Mother Brain)
LiSTEN, foolish fragile defective living creatures...
Lavos's children WILL LIKELY return to space soon.
Seeking new PREY, new planets...
This planet WILL recoVER.
If only humans weren't here...
And the new world of we robots WILL be constructed.
A country of iron... a utopia with neither hatred nor sorrow.
We are the new "species" that WILL take the place of humans.
StOP your USELESS efforts already.
Give up and sluMBER...

and since I can't resist, a Doctor Who quote for the topic of a metal utopia. "But that’s it! That’s exactly the point! Oh, Lumic, you’re a clever man. I’d call you a genius... except I’m in the room. But everything you’ve invented you did to fight your sickness. And that’s brilliant. That is so human. But once you get rid of sickness and mortality, then what’s there to strive for, eh? The Cybermen won’t advance, you’ll just stop! You’ll stay like this forever. A metal Earth with metal men and metal thoughts. Lacking the one thing that makes this planet so alive: people! Ordinary, stupid, brilliant people!"

BROJ

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2008, 02:24:09 pm »
And about the Devourer of Time...I don't know if the Entity knew it was a thing at all. I mean, technically it never even comes into existence! The Entity never has contact with it because it's always in the DBT.
But what if the Entity *is* the DBT, which absorbs timelines and such; which would mean Lavos is like a tick sucking on the life blood of the Entity/planet. Just my theory, anyways...

Kebrel

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Re: The Pendant and the Telepod
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2008, 08:50:04 pm »
Why is it that Robo, Mother brain are the one that seem to really under stand the planet? Them and Balthazar (who uses machines) might have some thing that clicks with the planet. Or is it just that they can live forever?