Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities => Topic started by: Kyronea on March 04, 2007, 11:16:55 am
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We first turn to this quote from the Japanese version of the game:
This planet WILL recoVER.
If only humans weren't here...…
And the new world of we robots WOULD be
constructed.
A country of iron...... a utopia with neither
hatred nor sorrow.
This has been interpreted as saying the planet can recover after a full scale attack on the planet by a Lavoid, but this makes no sense. Let's consider what we know:
The Mother Brain, whatever kind of program she may be, is insane, be it disrupted due to Lavos' attack or a virus or what have you, she has become something completely unlike what she originally was, the Mother Brain of the R-Y series factory, a program that most likely maintained the automated production of such robots.
The Mother Brain wants to create a world of only robots. She has been systimatically eliminating all human life remaining on the planet and most likely would go after other organic life next.
The Planet is dying. That's the whole reason it created the Gates in the first place, to save it from being killed by Lavos. The idea that the Planet would recover completely invalidates the whole point for the game, to save the Planet. If it was just humanity, then the Planet would not care all that much, especially since we see from Chrono Cross that when it comes to choosing between humanity and its own survival, the Planet chooses itself, as seen by its pulling of Dinopolis into the Keystone dimension to counterbalance Chronopolis.
So, if the Planet is dying, how could it recover? Take a look at a map of the ruined 2300 A.D.:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/1/14/2300_A.D..png
Take a long, hard look at the surface of the planet. Note the singular lack of any vegetation. Note the grey, acidic oceans most likely barren of life. Remember also that the only remaining organic life seen anywhere are the few humans in domes, a scattering of rats and a few mutated creatures that have most likely been feeding off of each other for the past three hundred years--hence why so few remain--and will probably starve themselves into extinction. With the Mother Brain eliminating the humans and the mutants eliminating each other, the rats have nothing to feed on and will also perish. Also, remember that on the world map during play the atmosphere is constantly filled with swirling dust and electrical storms. This dust presumeably would not make for decent air to breathe. (How unfortunate this was never indicated anywhere in the game.)
The simple fact is nothing apart from the one line by the Mother Brain indicates the Planet is capable of recovering, and indeed the idea goes against the entire rest of the game itself. What's more, the line lends itself to interpretation. It is my belief that the line was meant to indicate the Mother Brain wished to populate the world with robots and robots alone. The Planet itself would eventually die, but the dead surface would be inhabited for centuries by robots, or so the Mother Brain would like to have occur. Thusly, the Planet WILL die from a Lavoid attack, and cannot recover.
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I'm sure a lot of people knew that already, but still, this was very well written. Bravo. I'll link this thread to any n00bs who try and say otherwise.
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I'm sure a lot of people knew that already, but still, this was very well written. Bravo. I'll link this thread to any n00bs who try and say otherwise.
Yes, well, this specific bit:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Translation_Differences.html#Lavos:_Not_an_Apocalypse.3F
has been bothering me for some time and I finally had to address it, hence this thread.
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Zeality was the one who made that interpretation and put it on the translation differences page.
Hugely important line left out of the NA version:
This planet WILL recoVER.
She wasn't trying to eliminate humans and sustain the spawn with a nation of steel. She was merely looking forward to the recovery of the planet and a new civilization of robots; a mission to stop the spawn had nothing to do with it. It's also important because the PLANET WILL RECOVER. There is hope yet for the planets scourged with Lavos.
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Again, that makes no sense. If the Planet is to recover, why would the Planet bother creating Gates and sending Crono and the gang on their journey in the first place? The Planet does not care about the humans, only for its own life. If it was just humanity dying out I don't think the Planet would care. It's a misinterpretation on Zeality's part, though definitely an understandable one.
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Erm, did you ever think that Mother Brain was wrong in her assumption that the planet will recover? Of course, her perception of 'Recovering' must be rather different to ours.
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Erm, did you ever think that Mother Brain was wrong in her assumption that the planet will recover? Of course, her perception of 'Recovering' must be rather different to ours.
Of course, that could also be correct, but I personally favor the idea that she meant it would be a world inhabited only by robots. It's a line up to interpretation, and the interpretation in the Translations Differences article is wrong.
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I totally agree with Kyronea. I think we (everybody) are biased because we played the English version first and for years, and so when we suddenly get to read the Japanese sentence the first thought we have in mind is "wow, it's different!" So, we tend to extrapolate and think that the Japanese quote means the opposite of the English one just because it is different from it.
In fact, it's not really different. She says that "the planet will recover", but in context it's clear that she doesn't speak about nature, green plants and stuff. On the contrary! She speaks about "a new world", "a country of iron." The words Mother Brain use are different, but she still say the same thing as the English version, that the robots will finally be able to rule the world when the humans will be killed.
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Okay, okay.
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Okay, okay.
Chop, chop, Zeality. We don't have all day. :lol:
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Again, that makes no sense. If the Planet is to recover, why would the Planet bother creating Gates and sending Crono and the gang on their journey in the first place? The Planet does not care about the humans, only for its own life. If it was just humanity dying out I don't think the Planet would care. It's a misinterpretation on Zeality's part, though definitely an understandable one.
Even if the planet would recover, perhaps it didn't want to get beat down in the first place (or just plainly hated Lavos). A guy could recover after being kicked in the 'nads but wouldn't he prefer that it be prevented, or at least get revenge on the perpetrator?
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Again, that makes no sense. If the Planet is to recover, why would the Planet bother creating Gates and sending Crono and the gang on their journey in the first place? The Planet does not care about the humans, only for its own life. If it was just humanity dying out I don't think the Planet would care. It's a misinterpretation on Zeality's part, though definitely an understandable one.
The entity as the mother of all life would worry to see that her children suffer under Lavos. Not only humanity but all life in the planet will suffer & perhaps that's reason why the Entity would send Crono & Company to remedy the future events.
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Kyronea just pwned the NA translation.
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The entity as the mother of all life would worry to see that her children suffer under Lavos. Not only humanity but all life in the planet will suffer & perhaps that's reason why the Entity would send Crono & Company to remedy the future events.
The Planet itself is dying, though. Surely if life would recover the Planet would not go to such lengths to destroy Lavos. I know the Planet does care about the life that inhabits it but if the Planet--and thus, life itself--is all going to recover eventually, even if it means humanity dying out, I don't think the Planet would take the time to set up Gates throughout 65,002,300 years worth of time, pick a hero, intentionally send Marle to the DBT, and all the other stuff the Planet did to help Crono and the gang on their journey if it was all going to recover. It invalidates the game itself to say that.
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Nice "getting kicked in the nads" analogy
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Nice "getting kicked in the nads" analogy
...excuse me? I don't understand.
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...excuse me? I don't understand.
I think they were commenting on another poster's analogy of Lavos's attack on the planet being like a guy getting kicked in the nads. Would he recover? Sure. But he'd rather just sidestep the whole thing.
Now, in response to your initial post, I agree. It would kind of invalidate most of the game's plot if the planet was just going to recover anyway. Couldn't Mother Brain have been flawed in whatever calculations brought her to that conclusion? It obviously wasn't functioning properly, so (to me) that puts a miscalculation like that well within the realm of possibility. Kind of like an insane person, only, you know, a machine.
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I think they were commenting on another poster's analogy of Lavos's attack on the planet being like a guy getting kicked in the nads. Would he recover? Sure. But he'd rather just sidestep the whole thing.
I think this is the best way to describe it. Couldn't say it any better myself. :lol:
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Happy to oblige.
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Now, in response to your initial post, I agree. It would kind of invalidate most of the game's plot if the planet was just going to recover anyway. Couldn't Mother Brain have been flawed in whatever calculations brought her to that conclusion? It obviously wasn't functioning properly, so (to me) that puts a miscalculation like that well within the realm of possibility. Kind of like an insane person, only, you know, a machine.
Mother Brain is speaking about a country of iron, not a natural recovery with grass and plants and stuff. She was right in what she said.
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Mother Brain is speaking about a country of iron, not a natural recovery with grass and plants and stuff. She was right in what she said.
She says the planet will recover. THEN she says "And the new world of we robots WOULD be constructed." The structure of the sentence would imply to me that the one happens independently of the other. The planet heals, and the utopia is built. Not the other way around. Hence my theory that she was flawed in her calculations. Rambling, as it were. Just my opinion, though, :)
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Well, it doesn't make sense, though. Why would the Mother Brain care if the planet recovers? The robots don't need the environment to live in like humans do. She was comitting genocide, even!(Hence the name Genocidome.) She obviously doesn't care for organic life, and I don't see why she would let the Planet recover even if it could. Again, it invalidates everything.
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Mother Brain is speaking about a country of iron, not a natural recovery with grass and plants and stuff. She was right in what she said.
She says the planet will recover. THEN she says "And the new world of we robots WOULD be constructed." The structure of the sentence would imply to me that the one happens independently of the other. The planet heals, and the utopia is built. Not the other way around. Hence my theory that she was flawed in her calculations. Rambling, as it were. Just my opinion, though, :)
The two sentences can't be independent from each other. How would you explain the sentence put inbetween them else? ("If only humans weren't here...…") The humans are the last obstacle to the robots' total domination of the planet. If you think that Mother Brain was speaking about nature, then it would mean humans are an obstacle to that nature recovery... It wouldn't make sense, it's not like they're polluting the environment or anything in 2,300 AD.
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Hmmm. Interesting. Have you concidered the idea, that 'death of the entity' does not necessarily mean 'death of the planet'. I personaly think that the entity is the planet. But that it also exists as it's own being, perhaps parralel to the difference between our body and minds. Humanity can still live on a planet corpse, at least for some time, as indicated by 2400 AD.
Another idea is that the Mother Brain was talking about the recovery of the planet from her/it's perspective. A world that can not support organic life, may be deemed a recovery to a machine that wishes to fill the planet with nothing but other machines.
Just some food for thought. :)
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The two sentences can't be independent from each other. How would you explain the sentence put inbetween them else? ("If only humans weren't here...…") The humans are the last obstacle to the robots' total domination of the planet. If you think that Mother Brain was speaking about nature, then it would mean humans are an obstacle to that nature recovery... It wouldn't make sense, it's not like they're polluting the environment or anything in 2,300 AD.
Re-reading the quote again, the structure makes that a little harder to determine. Mother-Brain says that the planet WILL recover. Not that it might or "would, if..." The sentence concerning humans doesn't really fit with the tense of that sentence. It does, however, fit with the tense of the following sentence regarding the machine utopia. Again, though, the "And" at the beginning makes it not flow smoothly.
It makes me believe even moreso that she believes (erroneously) that the planet will recover from the damage done by Lavos. When speaking of humans as an obstacle, though, I agree that it is in regard to her robotic paradise.
This planet WILL recoVER.
If only humans weren't here...…
And the new world of we robots WOULD be
constructed.
A country of iron...... a utopia with neither
hatred nor sorrow.
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Erm, did you ever think that Mother Brain was wrong in her assumption that the planet will recover? Of course, her perception of 'Recovering' must be rather different to ours.
Of course, that could also be correct, but I personally favor the idea that she meant it would be a world inhabited only by robots. It's a line up to interpretation, and the interpretation in the Translations Differences article is wrong.
If she meant that a robot Utopia would take over, would she use the word 'planet', however? She possibly views the day of Lavos and it's effects as an example of human weakness.
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Well, it's normal arrogance to equate your kind with the planet. How many times in pop culture has a merely Humanity-threatening villain/force been referred to as "The End of The World?"
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Yes, I agree. And of course, the world is at an end for you if you die, because you won't be on it anymore anyway. Or something.
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Again, that makes no sense. If the Planet is to recover, why would the Planet bother creating Gates and sending Crono and the gang on their journey in the first place? The Planet does not care about the humans, only for its own life. If it was just humanity dying out I don't think the Planet would care. It's a misinterpretation on Zeality's part, though definitely an understandable one.
your assumption on the entity creating the gates for its own survival might be one of the causes of this problem, later after this post you admit that mother brain could be wrong in her assumptions, no matter how logical they may seem, couldn't Robo also be wrong about his observation that "It is almost as if some entity wanted to relive its past"?
im reminded of a time in highschool when after another teacher left the classroom a student said "he looks like he is stoned" the teacher started talking about slander while i was thinking the kid had made a simple observation.
just because Robo's observation (that the chain of events that direct the party are similar to that of a dieing person reliving their past), has some logic to it dosn't mean that it is exactly whats realy happening.
but going along with this whole entity created gates nonsense(in my opinion) have you ever been so ill you felt like you where going to die(this is more of a thought expairment then a question), and having been reduced to morning about your condition? don't you think you would remember some key points in your life at that point? people can get sick to the point in which they think death is around the corner, but they manage to pull through. just because the entity thinks its dieing, dosn't mean it is in actuality "living on barrowed time".
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your assumption on the entity creating the gates for its own survival might be one of the causes of this problem, later after this post you admit that mother brain could be wrong in her assumptions, no matter how logical they may seem, couldn't Robo also be wrong about his observation that "It is almost as if some entity wanted to relive its past"?
Robo could be wrong, but then Robo has also had four hundred YEARS to think about it, and frankly, why create that scene at all if it was not the truth of what is going on with the Chronoverse? What kind of sense would it make? You know, if you don't do the Fiona's Forest sidequest, in the main ending there's a different set of dialogue where they--Marle and Lucca, essentially propose the same exact thing:
Lucca: I thought Lavos made the ルッカ「ゲートはラヴォスの力で Lucca: We thought the Gates were born from
Gates... 生まれたものと思っていたけど…… Lavos's power, but......
But I guess I was wrong. 今思うと違ってたのかもね。[END] Thinking about it now, we may have been wrong.
Marle: What do you mean? マール「どういう事？[END] Marle: What do you mean?
Lucca: I think a greater force ルッカ「もっと違う…… Lucca: I wonder if another......
wanted us to experience those あたたかく大きな存在が If a great, warm being didn't want to show us
events. いろんな時代を私達に the various eras.
見せたかったんじゃないかな。[END]
Okay, poorly formatted, but you see my point: the creators of the game would not create this scene or the Fiona's Forest scene if it were not meant to be what is really going on with the events! Nothing in the game contradicts this, apart from one line by a crazy corrupted computer program that is eagerly trying to wipe out all organic life.
im reminded of a time in highschool when after another teacher left the classroom a student said "he looks like he is stoned" the teacher started talking about slander while i was thinking the kid had made a simple observation.
just because Robo's observation (that the chain of events that direct the party are similar to that of a dieing person reliving their past), has some logic to it dosn't mean that it is exactly whats realy happening.
And if there was another scene contradicting this that showed the truth then you might have a point, but you don't.
but going along with this whole entity created gates nonsense(in my opinion) have you ever been so ill you felt like you where going to die(this is more of a thought expairment then a question), and having been reduced to morning about your condition? don't you think you would remember some key points in your life at that point? people can get sick to the point in which they think death is around the corner, but they manage to pull through. just because the entity thinks its dieing, dosn't mean it is in actuality "living on barrowed time".
The Planet is dying...what else would having its energy sucked from it by a sentient parasitical lifeform for 65,000,000 years do to it? Again, I don't see what your point is. There is nothing in the series mythos to contradict any of this!
I challenge you to explain to me, then, how the Gates are created, what effect Lavos had on the Planet, and why the events of the game occurred as they did if the Planet's death is not the reality of the situation. Do so with evidence from the game, please, not unfounded speculation.
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You propose a challenge, I propose we just stick to thinking our own opinion's and interpretations are correct, aside from that, I dont have enough indepth knowledge to conquer your challenge, so I submit :P
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As a bit of friendly advice, I do suggest that, in the future, you ensure you can back up a claim before you make it. It really helps you avoid these kind of embarrasing situations.
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"Pride comes before the fall" and I've already landed on my face along time ago :lol: I have no care or concern for honor or pride so my composure is invincible, and I didn't say I accept your challenge, I merely said I submit seeing as how I've only played 5 ff titles in all, I'm selective in my choice of games 8) oh and thanks for the "friendly" advice.
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Oh, I was quite serious about the advice being friendly, though it seems I once again failed to properly word my statements...for that I apologize.
I do fail to understand what Final Fantasy games have to do with any of this...I thought we were speaking of the Planet's ability to create Gates and the fact that the Planet could not survive after Lavos' attack.
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On the note of Final Fantasy:
Just like at the end of FF6, the planet in the destroyed future might still recover. I mean it's a typical Squaresoft thing to make it that the planet is on the brink of destruction, or if it gets destroyed, it will heal again.
Like in FF6, even though the world was unbalanced and distorted, once Kefka was destroyed, it started to heal.
In FF7, even though Meteor hit, the planet still survived.
In Chrono Trigger, because Lavos already left the planet, or died, or what ever, the planet should recover over a long time. Mother Brain, in a sense, foreshadows this. Maybe she plans to destroy the lavoids too. Remember, Mother Brain is almost the same as FATE. Both know that humans are the progency of Lavos. If mother brain hates humans, she'll probably take care of the lavoids.
Also, take note that there would be no point in Lavos sucking all that energy just to make lavoids that would die because the planet that they were born on is dead -.-
BTW, even in 1999, the planet is green -.- Lavos' attack probably just singed the top of the earth.
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On the note of Final Fantasy:
Just like at the end of FF6, the planet in the destroyed future might still recover. I mean it's a typical Squaresoft thing to make it that the planet is on the brink of destruction, or if it gets destroyed, it will heal again.
Like in FF6, even though the world was unbalanced and distorted, once Kefka was destroyed, it started to heal.
In FF7, even though Meteor hit, the planet still survived.
Irrelevant.
In Chrono Trigger, because Lavos already left the planet, or died, or what ever, the planet should recover over a long time. Mother Brain, in a sense, foreshadows this. Maybe she plans to destroy the lavoids too. Remember, Mother Brain is almost the same as FATE. Both know that humans are the progency of Lavos. If mother brain hates humans, she'll probably take care of the lavoids.
Also, take note that there would be no point in Lavos sucking all that energy just to make lavoids that would die because the planet that they were born on is dead -.-
BTW, even in 1999, the planet is green -.- Lavos' attack probably just singed the top of the earth.
Once again I question why they would stress that the Planet is dying in the Fiona's Forest scene if it were actually not dying. Seeing one's life flash by is typical of true deaths--at least in fiction--and as such we should take it to mean exactly what it is: by 2300 A.D., the Planet is dead, or so close to dead it makes no difference. If there is any remaining energy, that's what the Lavos Spawns would be feeding upon.
It goes against the whole point of the game. If the Planet would recover, why bother creating the Heroes of Time? Why risk all of that temporal chaos if the Planet would, in fact, live? The only potential gain if the Planet would still live is humanity surviving, and considering what humanity tends to do to its environs, that might not be the most pleasant thing. Consider the potential risks and benefits. You have interference in over 65,000,000 years of the Planet's lifespan via time travel which could cause numerous problems anywhere along that line, and the one benefit--if the Planet would recover--is humanity's survival. I'm sorry, but that's just not worth it.
We have no evidence that the Planet would recover apart from the one line by the Mother Brain, which is a corrupted computer program, versus the bevy of evidence for its death. Once again, I question why anyone would continue to pursue this matter.
I now invoke Occam's Razor: the simplest explanation with the largest amount of evidence towards it is the most likely. The Planet's Death has far more evidence than does its survival, and it is simpler, and thus is most likely.
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Maybe Mother Brain meant that the planet would be able to recover, but that it wouldn´t be as "healthy" as it was before. For example, if a person had an accident, he or she may ble able to recover, but probably will have some sort of deficiency. So, it´s better to prevent the Planet from being destroyed at all instead of letting it survive with a scar, or something like that.
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Maybe Mother Brain meant that the planet would be able to recover, but that it wouldn´t be as "healthy" as it was before. For example, if a person had an accident, he or she may ble able to recover, but probably will have some sort of deficiency. So, it´s better to prevent the Planet from being destroyed at all instead of letting it survive with a scar, or something like that.
Now that's actually a neat suggestion. I'm not sure I'd agree with the Mother Brain's assessment, as either way it is still incorrect, but I definitely like this over a full recovery, as it seems a bit more poetic.
Still, it is irrelevant, as the Mother Brain, whatever she may have meant, is wrong.
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Maybe Mother Brain meant that the planet would be able to recover, but that it wouldn´t be as "healthy" as it was before. For example, if a person had an accident, he or she may ble able to recover, but probably will have some sort of deficiency. So, it´s better to prevent the Planet from being destroyed at all instead of letting it survive with a scar, or something like that.
Still, it is irrelevant, as the Mother Brain, whatever she may have meant, is wrong.
Game Characters have more meaning and influence then what you say. I don't remember you being plot line creator :/
Remember, anything stated in a game, such as a prophecy, or foreshadowing WILL come true, unless the person is stated to be a lying/liar/cheater/scammer.
Irrelevant.
How is it irrelevant when Squaresoft copies motifs and ideas from all of its games, and just reworks them?
Once again I question why they would stress that the Planet is dying in the Fiona's Forest scene if it were actually not dying. Seeing one's life flash by is typical of true deaths--at least in fiction--and as such we should take it to mean exactly what it is: by 2300 A.D., the Planet is dead, or so close to dead it makes no difference. If there is any remaining energy, that's what the Lavos Spawns would be feeding upon.
It goes against the whole point of the game. If the Planet would recover, why bother creating the Heroes of Time? Why risk all of that temporal chaos if the Planet would, in fact, live? The only potential gain if the Planet would still live is humanity surviving, and considering what humanity tends to do to its environs, that might not be the most pleasant thing. Consider the potential risks and benefits. You have interference in over 65,000,000 years of the Planet's lifespan via time travel which could cause numerous problems anywhere along that line, and the one benefit--if the Planet would recover--is humanity's survival. I'm sorry, but that's just not worth it.
We have no evidence that the Planet would recover apart from the one line by the Mother Brain, which is a corrupted computer program, versus the bevy of evidence for its death. Once again, I question why anyone would continue to pursue this matter.
I now invoke Occam's Razor: the simplest explanation with the largest amount of evidence towards it is the most likely. The Planet's Death has far more evidence than does its survival, and it is simpler, and thus is most likely.
Because Fiona's forest isn't required, it's not canon. Probably just like getting Magus isn't exactly canon, otherwise he'd be in the group picture, and not in the antagonist scenes.
Furthermore, if the planet was dying, and it traversed all of time and space, then it would be dead the moment Lavos did his attack. And since Crono and co can go to the End of Time and then still go back to the past, the planet probably lived up to the end of time -.- Otherwise then we'd have issues.
Secondly, Mother Brain isn't "corrupt". Mother Brain is stated by the game to have gone rouge, as in it defied it's original programmed orders, and does what it wants. This might be due to its high grade AI.
Moreover, we even see the seedling grow in the future. If the people had no future, then the seedling wouldn't grow. Heck, the people themselves said that they'd try and bring about a new future. The only problem was that Mother Brain wanted to create a new world from the ruins.
And don't forget that CC stressed the fact that changing the future wasn't necessarily the grand scheme of things as they should have been done. The people in the future would have continued to live and live on, but it was Crono's interference that stopped them from ever being born, just because they didn't want Lavos to ever awaken.
And you also didn't answer why Lavos would leave his spawn on a dead planet, if they need energy to mature and leave -.-
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Game Characters have more meaning and influence then what you say. I don't remember you being plot line creator :/
Remember, anything stated in a game, such as a prophecy, or foreshadowing WILL come true, unless the person is stated to be a lying/liar/cheater/scammer.
And again, that one line is countered by a large deal of evidence.
How is it irrelevant when Squaresoft copies motifs and ideas from all of its games, and just reworks them?
Because this is Chrono Trigger. If you're going to argue what occurs, you support it with evidence in the game itself. Games made by the same people, unless directly referenced as being part of the plot of Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, are irrelevant.
Because Fiona's forest isn't required, it's not canon. Probably just like getting Magus isn't exactly canon, otherwise he'd be in the group picture, and not in the antagonist scenes.
And if you do not visit Fiona's Forest and see that cutscene you will see a different, slightly smaller cutscene during the main ending that states the same thing only more succintly, as I already pointed out. Pay attention, please.
As for Magus: spoiler reasons. Furthermore, Magus surviving IS canon, as seen in Lucca's letter in Chrono Cross. She mentions Janus, and why would she do that if Magus did not survive? Hell, if he wasn't supposed to survive, why give the player the chance to recruit him? The sheer fact that he is recruitable suggests that is more likely to be canon than not.
Furthermore, if the planet was dying, and it traversed all of time and space, then it would be dead the moment Lavos did his attack. And since Crono and co can go to the End of Time and then still go back to the past, the planet probably lived up to the end of time -.- Otherwise then we'd have issues.
Why is this required? The Gates are not sustained by the Planet, merely created by the Planet. Furthermore, Gaspar says that the player can always use a Gate to access the End of Time once they have been through it, suggesting that the End of Time is disconnected from the normal flow of time rather than truly being the End of all Time, which is ridiculous because then nothing could happen in the End of Time...everything would either happen at once or be frozen.
Secondly, Mother Brain isn't "corrupt". Mother Brain is stated by the game to have gone rouge, as in it defied it's original programmed orders, and does what it wants. This might be due to its high grade AI.
She is noted as the Mother Brain of the R-Y Series Factory. This suggests she is, at most, an A.I. designed to oversee the construction and programming of the robots produced there. There is no reason to suspect something was lying wait in her programming that would cause her to be so bloodthirsty towards organic life; safeguards would be in place to prevent that kind of thing. I know that if I were to program that kind of complex A.I. I'd be damned sure to include safeguards, a sense of morality, and other programming to ensure she wouldn't go crazy. The events of the Day of Lavos corrupted her programming, pure and simple.
Moreover, we even see the seedling grow in the future. If the people had no future, then the seedling wouldn't grow. Heck, the people themselves said that they'd try and bring about a new future. The only problem was that Mother Brain wanted to create a new world from the ruins.
I'll give you something of this, but that one seedling would not support a population. Even taking into account the gameplay necessary reduction in numbers, human population is not sustainable by 2300 A.D. They're barely hanging on as it is with the Enetron.
And don't forget that CC stressed the fact that changing the future wasn't necessarily the grand scheme of things as they should have been done. The people in the future would have continued to live and live on, but it was Crono's interference that stopped them from ever being born, just because they didn't want Lavos to ever awaken.
Are you talking about Lucca's fear of reprisal from the futures they sent to the DBT? Once the future was changed and Lavos did not destroy the world, those people never existed. They wouldn't have a chance to do anything. If there was a version of them in the new future, they were much happier, safer, and lived a far better life than they would in the ruined 2300 A.D., presuming they could survive much further beyond then.
And you also didn't answer why Lavos would leave his spawn on a dead planet, if they need energy to mature and leave -.-
Yes I did. I said the Planet was still dying by 2300 A.D. Lavos himself did not finish off the Planet: the Lavos Spawn did. Since Death Peak is the likely point of eruption by Lavos, it is the best place for the Spawn to inhabit so they can suck the remaining energy. Once they finish and blast off into space, the Planet would be truly dead.
-
Just like at the end of FF6, the planet in the destroyed future might still recover. I mean it's a typical Squaresoft thing to make it that the planet is on the brink of destruction, or if it gets destroyed, it will heal again.
Like in FF6, even though the world was unbalanced and distorted, once Kefka was destroyed, it started to heal.
In FF7, even though Meteor hit, the planet still survived.
In Chrono Trigger, because Lavos already left the planet, or died, or what ever, the planet should recover over a long time. Mother Brain, in a sense, foreshadows this. Maybe she plans to destroy the lavoids too. Remember, Mother Brain is almost the same as FATE. Both know that humans are the progency of Lavos. If mother brain hates humans, she'll probably take care of the lavoids.
Also, take note that there would be no point in Lavos sucking all that energy just to make lavoids that would die because the planet that they were born on is dead -.-
BTW, even in 1999, the planet is green -.- Lavos' attack probably just singed the top of the earth.
No. Kefka attempted to destroy it at the end: previously it was just ruined world, akin to 2300 AD. If Kefka has continued to rule, then the planet would die. But when he went it was restored. But I don't think the situation there was anywhere near as dire as that in CT.
Meteor didn't make an impact. It destroyed Midgar, but Holy and the Lifestream prevented it from making a real impact. The world is fine and dandy in Advent Children.
But Mother Brain is insane. And nothing compared to Lavos. Also of note is that Belthasar, the creator of FATE sees the need to help the quest to save the planet.
The Lavos spawns are already climbing up Death Peak; the 'lift off' point. They don't plan to stay very long.
He hadn't obliterated the place yet. If merely coming to the surface would ruin the world, then the CT party would be killed the moment they reach 1999.
Furthermore, if the planet was dying, and it traversed all of time and space, then it would be dead the moment Lavos did his attack. And since Crono and co can go to the End of Time and then still go back to the past, the planet probably lived up to the end of time -.- Otherwise then we'd have issues.
Why is this required? The Gates are not sustained by the Planet, merely created by the Planet. Furthermore, Gaspar says that the player can always use a Gate to access the End of Time once they have been through it, suggesting that the End of Time is disconnected from the normal flow of time rather than truly being the End of all Time, which is ridiculous because then nothing could happen in the End of Time...everything would either happen at once or be frozen.
Secondly, Mother Brain isn't "corrupt". Mother Brain is stated by the game to have gone rouge, as in it defied it's original programmed orders, and does what it wants. This might be due to its high grade AI.
She is noted as the Mother Brain of the R-Y Series Factory. This suggests she is, at most, an A.I. designed to oversee the construction and programming of the robots produced there. There is no reason to suspect something was lying wait in her programming that would cause her to be so bloodthirsty towards organic life; safeguards would be in place to prevent that kind of thing. I know that if I were to program that kind of complex A.I. I'd be damned sure to include safeguards, a sense of morality, and other programming to ensure she wouldn't go crazy. The events of the Day of Lavos corrupted her programming, pure and simple.
And you also didn't answer why Lavos would leave his spawn on a dead planet, if they need energy to mature and leave -.-
Yes I did. I said the Planet was still dying by 2300 A.D. Lavos himself did not finish off the Planet: the Lavos Spawn did. Since Death Peak is the likely point of eruption by Lavos, it is the best place for the Spawn to inhabit so they can suck the remaining energy. Once they finish and blast off into space, the Planet would be truly dead.
Also of note is that we can't see the planet in tEoT, so it's not definite whether it survived or not.
It really is a moot point, considering true Artificial intelligence hasn't been developed yet. Similar to my point on Tomatoes and racism in that 'Hello' topic. As a race, we have yet to create Artificial Intelligence or witness Alien AI, so speculation on this point is futile.
Just as I said above.
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minus my personal baises heres the points i was trying to make;
1. just because we are given an answere to one question (what created the gates) dosn't mean we should not presue further questions(how where the gates made? why specifically where they made?) a point was made earlier as to what the motivation of the entity sending the characters through time was, if it was going to recover anyway, is it specifically mentioned that the entity was trying to change the past intentionally, or was the groups actions an unforseen resualt of the entity recalling its past? also did the entity truthfully know it was going to die or could it just have assumed it was going to die?
2. on the issue of weather or not the planet could recover, im reminded of the show "mystery diagnosis" on the discovery health channel, each "episode" has a vary specific flow; person gets sick, person looks for advice, doctor gives treatments, person gets sicker, person starts to accept their own mortality, new doctor finds real cause of sickness, person gets better. thats what could have happened in CT in regards to the "entity" recalling it's past, it could have been at the stage of "accepted mortality".
on the issue of humans being harmful to the entity(defined as nature) this could only be partially so, we see the people of the ruined future try to grow a plant for example, humans could be as much an enemy to nature(entity) as they are to chickens and cows, sure we may slaughter and exploit them for our own benifit but we are still dependent on their survival. so in regards to the entity using humans to help itself it may just be a case of "the ends justify the means" (ends:entity's survival, means: using an exploitative or abusive aquantence)
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minus my personal baises heres the points i was trying to make;
1. just because we are given an answere to one question (what created the gates) dosn't mean we should not presue further questions
I agree. Questions and answers are the basis of understanding.
(how where the gates made? why specifically where they made?) a point was made earlier as to what the motivation of the entity sending the characters through time was, if it was going to recover anyway, is it specifically mentioned that the entity was trying to change the past intentionally, or was the groups actions an unforseen resualt of the entity recalling its past? also did the entity truthfully know it was going to die or could it just have assumed it was going to die?
This is where the situation is unclear. Since we've established the Planet IS dying and will not survive, it is reasonable to presume the Gates were intentional, but I hesitate on making a definitive judgement here without more evidence, though I do support the idea that the Gates were intentional.
2. on the issue of weather or not the planet could recover, im reminded of the show "mystery diagnosis" on the discovery health channel, each "episode" has a vary specific flow; person gets sick, person looks for advice, doctor gives treatments, person gets sicker, person starts to accept their own mortality, new doctor finds real cause of sickness, person gets better. thats what could have happened in CT in regards to the "entity" recalling it's past, it could have been at the stage of "accepted mortality".
Irrelevant. There is nothing to suggest any of this has occurred or will occur.
on the issue of humans being harmful to the entity(defined as nature) this could only be partially so, we see the people of the ruined future try to grow a plant for example,
For their own survival, in an attempt to feed themselves, not to care for the Planet.
humans could be as much an enemy to nature(entity) as they are to chickens and cows, sure we may slaughter and exploit them for our own benifit but we are still dependent on their survival. so in regards to the entity using humans to help itself it may just be a case of "the ends justify the means" (ends:entity's survival, means: using an exploitative or abusive aquantence)
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you agreeing that the Planet did in fact create the Gates intentionally because it was dying and thus used humanity to ensure its survival through the destruction of Lavos?
But Mother Brain is insane. And nothing compared to Lavos. Also of note is that Belthasar, the creator of FATE sees the need to help the quest to save the planet.
The Lavos spawns are already climbing up Death Peak; the 'lift off' point. They don't plan to stay very long.
He hadn't obliterated the place yet. If merely coming to the surface would ruin the world, then the CT party would be killed the moment they reach 1999.
Exactly.
Also of note is that we can't see the planet in tEoT, so it's not definite whether it survived or not.
A good point you have there. We really don't know what the End of Time is...it seems to simply be a dimensional void of some sort.
It really is a moot point, considering true Artificial intelligence hasn't been developed yet. Similar to my point on Tomatoes and racism in that 'Hello' topic. As a race, we have yet to create Artificial Intelligence or witness Alien AI, so speculation on this point is futile.
I am speculating based on what information I have about A.I.s in the Chronoverse and what my own actions in the situation would be, nothing more.
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She is noted as the Mother Brain of the R-Y Series Factory. This suggests she is, at most, an A.I. designed to oversee the construction and programming of the robots produced there. There is no reason to suspect something was lying wait in her programming that would cause her to be so bloodthirsty towards organic life; safeguards would be in place to prevent that kind of thing. I know that if I were to program that kind of complex A.I. I'd be damned sure to include safeguards, a sense of morality, and other programming to ensure she wouldn't go crazy. The events of the Day of Lavos corrupted her programming, pure and simple.
I never said that, however, you're wrong about the Day of Lavos causing it. The Mother Brain series is just prone to becoming rogue, as suggested by CC. In CC, Belthasar built FATE off a Mother Brain design. FATE was supposed to protect humanity, yet it later decided that it wanted to become a God, or a new creature, hence it also went rogue. And supposedly, Belthasar had installed a protection method to control FATE from the problem that Mother Brain faced, sadly it still failed (this is from the discrepancy in the game that stated that Belthasar installed the Prometheus Circuit in FATE to stop it from getting the flame, whilst Lucca is also stated to have created a Prometheus Circuit to stop the Mother Brain series from going rogue).
So basically, Mother Brain isn't crazy, but has advanced so much that she does what she wants/knows/analyzes and uses logic with.
I'll give you something of this, but that one seedling would not support a population. Even taking into account the gameplay necessary reduction in numbers, human population is not sustainable by 2300 A.D. They're barely hanging on as it is with the Enetron.
It's true, they're hungry, but they're still sustained. As for the seed, I always thought that it was Melchior's seed and that according to the game, it has the power to heal the world. So even though it may take time, it's giving the people a hope to live, and in time, it should save the world again.
Are you talking about Lucca's fear of reprisal from the futures they sent to the DBT? Once the future was changed and Lavos did not destroy the world, those people never existed. They wouldn't have a chance to do anything. If there was a version of them in the new future, they were much happier, safer, and lived a far better life than they would in the ruined 2300 A.D., presuming they could survive much further beyond then.
True, but Lucca doesn't know and cannot guarantee that the people will be born. People who died in 1999AD may now have kids with people that they never would have, hence the descendants would change.
Yes I did. I said the Planet was still dying by 2300 A.D. Lavos himself did not finish off the Planet: the Lavos Spawn did. Since Death Peak is the likely point of eruption by Lavos, it is the best place for the Spawn to inhabit so they can suck the remaining energy. Once they finish and blast off into space, the Planet would be truly dead.
My bad.
However, if the planet is still alive, Mother Brain's plan can still be completed if she exterminates the Lavos Spawn, and then lets the planet recover for her dream.
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She is noted as the Mother Brain of the R-Y Series Factory. This suggests she is, at most, an A.I. designed to oversee the construction and programming of the robots produced there. There is no reason to suspect something was lying wait in her programming that would cause her to be so bloodthirsty towards organic life; safeguards would be in place to prevent that kind of thing. I know that if I were to program that kind of complex A.I. I'd be damned sure to include safeguards, a sense of morality, and other programming to ensure she wouldn't go crazy. The events of the Day of Lavos corrupted her programming, pure and simple.
I never said that, however, you're wrong about the Day of Lavos causing it. The Mother Brain series is just prone to becoming rogue, as suggested by CC. In CC, Belthasar built FATE off a Mother Brain design. FATE was supposed to protect humanity, yet it later decided that it wanted to become a God, or a new creature, hence it also went rogue. And supposedly, Belthasar had installed a protection method to control FATE from the problem that Mother Brain faced, sadly it still failed (this is from the discrepancy in the game that stated that Belthasar installed the Prometheus Circuit in FATE to stop it from getting the flame, whilst Lucca is also stated to have created a Prometheus Circuit to stop the Mother Brain series from going rogue).
So basically, Mother Brain isn't crazy, but has advanced so much that she does what she wants/knows/analyzes and uses logic with.
I'll give you something of this, but that one seedling would not support a population. Even taking into account the gameplay necessary reduction in numbers, human population is not sustainable by 2300 A.D. They're barely hanging on as it is with the Enetron.
It's true, they're hungry, but they're still sustained. As for the seed, I always thought that it was Melchior's seed and that according to the game, it has the power to heal the world. So even though it may take time, it's giving the people a hope to live, and in time, it should save the world again.
Wha..? How could Lucca built a Prometheus circuit? She had nothing to do with the creation of the Mother Brain series, as far as we know. And Mother Brain was, quite simply, crazy. Actually, corrupt is a better word to describe her right now.
No, a single tree could not save the world. Later generations of trees (they multiply, see...) could, maybe, but I think the situation was already too bad for that.
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I never said that, however, you're wrong about the Day of Lavos causing it. The Mother Brain series is just prone to becoming rogue, as suggested by CC. In CC, Belthasar built FATE off a Mother Brain design. FATE was supposed to protect humanity, yet it later decided that it wanted to become a God, or a new creature, hence it also went rogue. And supposedly, Belthasar had installed a protection method to control FATE from the problem that Mother Brain faced, sadly it still failed (this is from the discrepancy in the game that stated that Belthasar installed the Prometheus Circuit in FATE to stop it from getting the flame, whilst Lucca is also stated to have created a Prometheus Circuit to stop the Mother Brain series from going rogue).
So basically, Mother Brain isn't crazy, but has advanced so much that she does what she wants/knows/analyzes and uses logic with.
Incorrect. FATE was intended to go rogue in the manner that it did. Belthasar planned all of the events of Chrono Cross including everything the FATE computer system would do. Furthermore, not all Mother Brain A.I.'s are presumeably identical...they may have a base core set of programming and systems but each one would be customized to the specific facility needed. A Mother Brain designed to oversee a factory would not work for, say, a hospital.
It's true, they're hungry, but they're still sustained. As for the seed, I always thought that it was Melchior's seed and that according to the game, it has the power to heal the world. So even though it may take time, it's giving the people a hope to live, and in time, it should save the world again.
It's the very fact that it is Melchior's special plant that it grows at all...nothing else would grow. Again, there is nothing to suggest it would continue to survive, and you keep forgetting about the Mother Brain and her intentions...she would wipe them out sooner or later.
True, but Lucca doesn't know and cannot guarantee that the people will be born. People who died in 1999AD may now have kids with people that they never would have, hence the descendants would change.
I fail to see why this matters at all. Those people born after the Day of Lavos are miserable people who never had true lives worth anything, whereas the people born in the new future are happy.
My bad.
However, if the planet is still alive, Mother Brain's plan can still be completed if she exterminates the Lavos Spawn, and then lets the planet recover for her dream.
...her dream is for a new nation of steel--or a country of iron, take your pick--and has nothing to do with the Planet itself or any organic life. The robots can survive on the dead husk of the Planet and thus have no need for its survival. They intend to eliminate all organic life so they have the dead husk to themselves.
Furthermore, she never wanted to do anything with the Lavos Spawn; that was a quirk of the North American translation.
No, a single tree could not save the world. Later generations of trees (they multiply, see...) could, maybe, but I think the situation was already too bad for that.
Exactly. Even taking into account the magical properties of the seedling, there just is not enough genetic diversity for it to survive many generations even if the Mother Brain was not intending to destroy it along with all traces of humanity.
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Incorrect. FATE was intended to go rogue in the manner that it did. Belthasar planned all of the events of Chrono Cross including everything the FATE computer system would do. Furthermore, not all Mother Brain A.I.'s are presumeably identical...they may have a base core set of programming and systems but each one would be customized to the specific facility needed. A Mother Brain designed to oversee a factory would not work for, say, a hospital.
FATE was intended to go rogue, because they knew it would go rogue. Belthasar planned it because he had some kind of power to foresee everything (that or he used FATE's program that could trace parallel dimensions and calculate how things would turn out).
Secondly, you're wrong. The game already stated that FATE was built directly off the old mother brain circuitry.
[Ghost]
FATE is a large-scale
prototype, completed
in the year 2300.
It integrated the old
Mother Brain computer
circuitry into a more
powerful super-computer.
So the game already implies that FATE will go rogue, as it's based off the old Mother Brain series.
I fail to see why this matters at all. Those people born after the Day of Lavos are miserable people who never had true lives worth anything, whereas the people born in the new future are happy.
You don't know that. In 2300 AD, after Crono and co came, the people had hope. They might have been able to restore the world, especially with the seedling.
...her dream is for a new nation of steel--or a country of iron, take your pick--and has nothing to do with the Planet itself or any organic life. The robots can survive on the dead husk of the Planet and thus have no need for its survival. They intend to eliminate all organic life so they have the dead husk to themselves.
If the planet was dead, then how do you expect them to get resources, oils, etc. From all the fumes that they would be producing, sooner or later you'd have too many CO2 emissions, and acid rain, and then the world would be inhospitable to everything.
Exactly. Even taking into account the magical properties of the seedling, there just is not enough genetic diversity for it to survive many generations even if the Mother Brain was not intending to destroy it along with all traces of humanity.
No, a single tree could not save the world. Later generations of trees (they multiply, see...) could, maybe, but I think the situation was already too bad for that.
[Young Woman]
But the Queen ordered me to burn this
sapling I received from the Guru of
Life.
He said it was a magical sapling, with
powers to cure the environment.
I don't know why you keep going against the game data. Game DATA > What you say. If the game states that it has the power to heal the environment, then it has the power to heal the environment.
And you're saying that just because it has magical properties, it can't survive? Like WTF? That's exactally the point. Because it has magical properties, it can do what ever because it is magical. Its not an ordinary seed that needs pollination. Heck, it could reproduce asexually or just clone itself.
Wha..? How could Lucca built a Prometheus circuit? She had nothing to do with the creation of the Mother Brain series, as far as we know. And Mother Brain was, quite simply, crazy. Actually, corrupt is a better word to describe her right now.
Lynx:
Contact with the Flame
healed your young body.
But that was not all...
Once the security card
system was rebooted, it
would only grant access
to you...the '"arbiter."'
You can't imagine the
trouble this caused the
FATE computer system in
achieving its objective.
Inside of FATE, there was a
stand-alone circuit that had
been kept hidden since the
old Mother Brain generation.
That circuit was designed to
start a malfunction, or more
precisely, a '"rebellion."'
Lynx:
Who would have thought that
such a small bug, a '"traitor,"'
could exist inside of FATE?
That hidden circuit was based
on the initial Ashtear model
circuit board, with extra logic
added by another scientist.
FATE itself did not realize
that this circuit was present
within the core of its system.
Or, more correctly...
...the circuit was programmed
so that the moment FATE did
detect it, it would erase all
record of its detection.
If you haven't played CC, or didn't pay attention, you need to read up at least on the script -.-
Lucca, knowing the future and how Mother Brain would go rogue, created the original Mother Brain circuit board, and in it she created a "Prometheus Circuit" that would act as a safety device should the computers AI ever go against it's programming.
Belthasar, in the future got this circuit board, and used it as the model for FATE. Later on, it's lead to believe that Robo existed in the future and Belthasar asked him to become the real Prometheus Lock that would stop FATE from gaining the Frozen Flame as a part of Belthasar's plan.
However, because it went rogue, it just shows again that the whole Mother Brain series is just flawed, regardless of what precautions are used.
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FATE was intended to go rogue, because they knew it would go rogue. Belthasar planned it because he had some kind of power to foresee everything (that or he used FATE's program that could trace parallel dimensions and calculate how things would turn out).
Secondly, you're wrong. The game already stated that FATE was built directly off the old mother brain circuitry.
[Ghost]
FATE is a large-scale
prototype, completed
in the year 2300.
It integrated the old
Mother Brain computer
circuitry into a more
powerful super-computer.
So the game already implies that FATE will go rogue, as it's based off the old Mother Brain series.
No, it doesn't. FATE was built off of the Mother Brain A.I. because the Mother Brain A.I. was already partially sentient and FATE was intended to work for thousands of years...many millennia. You need a sentient computer to be able to keep that up.
FATE never truly went rogue so much as FATE went rogue in the way Belthesar intended it. In otherwords, he programmed FATE so that it would do what he wanted. It never truly went rogue in the way you're talking about. If it had then all of Belthasar's plans would have been for naught.
You don't know that. In 2300 AD, after Crono and co came, the people had hope. They might have been able to restore the world, especially with the seedling.
I don't, eh? So am I supposed to presume the world in 1999 A.D. is some sort of horrible place where no one can be happy? Furthermore, you're missing the point: it is precisely BECAUSE of Crono and friend's actions they had hope to begin with, and later their version of the future was erased. They couldn't have hope without Crono, and Crono would never have stopped half-way in defeating Lavos, so your point is completely and totally moot.
If the planet was dead, then how do you expect them to get resources, oils, etc. From all the fumes that they would be producing, sooner or later you'd have too many CO2 emissions, and acid rain, and then the world would be inhospitable to everything.
The robots don't require an atmosphere...given the technological capabilities of the robots they probably would have modified what was left to be whatever they needed it to be. As for how they gain resources, that I don't know. I do, again, point out that the Mother Brain is insane, and it's possible she did not fully think it through, given her insanity.
Of course, it's also possible that they could have mined asteroids and other bodies in the Chrono solar system. We know the people of 1999 A.D. had space travel, or else the images of Lavos could not have been captured: it was through a satallite.
[Young Woman]
But the Queen ordered me to burn this
sapling I received from the Guru of
Life.
He said it was a magical sapling, with
powers to cure the environment.
I don't know why you keep going against the game data. Game DATA > What you say. If the game states that it has the power to heal the environment, then it has the power to heal the environment.
And you're saying that just because it has magical properties, it can't survive? Like WTF? That's exactally the point. Because it has magical properties, it can do what ever because it is magical. Its not an ordinary seed that needs pollination. Heck, it could reproduce asexually or just clone itself.
Ah yes, because it's magical it can do anything.
No. The environment cannot live if the Planet itself is dying. What atmosphere there is that remains breathable is most probably due to the Planet itself because there is no vegetation anywhere in the world capable of maintaining the oxygen required. When the Planet dies, there is no longer an environment to cure or restore. And it is but one seedling...regardless of how it would reproduce it just does NOT HAVE THE GENETIC DIVERSITY. Genetic diversity is not just about numbers, it's about different DNA and sets of DNA existing. Cloning would especially result in a complete breakdown because you'd be making a copy of a copy of a copy...eventually degredation would lead to destruction.
I also find it amusing that you're arguing about game data when THAT SAME GAME DATA TELLS YOU THAT THE PLANET IS DYING AND CANNOT RECOVER. I'm capitalizing my words here in the hope you'll actually be able to understand them.
However, because it went rogue, it just shows again that the whole Mother Brain series is just flawed, regardless of what precautions are used.
It's actually quite possible the base system of the Mother Brain is flawed, but then we only have two examples of this:
1. A computer that goes insane and corrupted after the destruction of the world.
2. A computer that has existed for over ten thousand years, was merely based on the basic A.I. of the Mother Brain, and was intended to do exactly what it did in the first place, and unlike the previous example had no intentions of destroying all organic life, merely creating its own species instead.
Zaper, tell me something: what created the Gates? Why would the Planet create the Gates and use Crono and friends if not to save itself? What point is there in the entire journey if it will recover? I am asking you to please answer this because it is extremely relevant.
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Personally, I believe the planet would recover after millions of years. In real life, life is very resilient. Earth has been bombarded by meteors many times, about five of them close to the size of the comet that destroyed the dinosaurs. Life has been 95 percent extinct before (No, not because of the meteor. There was a case of world volcanism.), and it always recovers. Heck, there have been bacteria found in long dead ocean salts, and brought back to life after millions of years...So yeah, life, the planet, would be very resilient. Besides, it is unclear what the entity truly is. Some people say the planet, others say Schala, and others claim it is the player, since it was a side quest, and other Square games have done something similar. If it is the planet, I don't think it would want the balance of nature disturbed by Lavos. New life will eventually turn up, but it won't be the same.
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Personally, I believe the planet would recover after millions of years. In real life, life is very resilient. Earth has been bombarded by meteors many times, about five of them close to the size of the comet that destroyed the dinosaurs. Life has been 95 percent extinct before (No, not because of the meteor. There was a case of world volcanism.), and it always recovers. Heck, there have been bacteria found in long dead ocean salts, and brought back to life after millions of years...So yeah, life, the planet, would be very resilient.
Completely irrelevant. We are speaking of the Chronoverse, not our own reality. Use the information in Chrono games. The Planet is alive, as a spiritual and biological life form. Lavos has been sucking away that life for over 65,000,000 years, and the Day of Lavos attack is essentially the fatal blow. While it takes some time for the Planet to die completely, the Planet will die.
Besides, it is unclear what the entity truly is. Some people say the planet, others say Schala, and others claim it is the player, since it was a side quest, and other Square games have done something similar. If it is the planet, I don't think it would want the balance of nature disturbed by Lavos. New life will eventually turn up, but it won't be the same.
It is the Planet. The bevy of evidence--including the retranslated original Japanese script, which is much closer than our own censored version--points to it being the Planet over any other explanation, especially taking Chrono Cross information into account. The game states that the Planet is dying, and even if you do not witness the Fiona's Forest cutscene a shorter but essentially identical cutscene takes place in the main ending. If the Planet recovers, it invalidates the whole point of the game.
Will a shell be left behind? Sure, but it'll be a lifeless hunk of rock, and given that the Planet itself is what gives life to all other beings, without its spiritual energy nothing else organic can live upon it. As such, if the Planet dies, everything dies. End of story.
-
Will a shell be left behind? Sure, but it'll be a lifeless hunk of rock, and given that the Planet itself is what gives life to all other beings, without its spiritual energy nothing else organic can live upon it. As such, if the Planet dies, everything dies. End of story.
COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.
The game never states that the Planet is spiritual.
We just know that it is conscious and would do anything to survive (and also has a lot of power like to drag in a whole city from another dimension).
Oh and btw, the CT world was based on our world (especially with Lavos mirroring the KT meteor). Because Lavos created an ice age, whilst almost destroying all life, it just shows that even if a bunch of things get destroyed, life flourishes again (after the ice age).
-
COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.
Wrong, sir, wrong! Irrelevancy is determined by the information at hand! If I take information from the game it is not irrelevant, whether you deem it to be or not. I know you have a hard time understand the plot of this game and all, but please, you're not stupid, so don't act like you are.
The game never states that the Planet is spiritual.
We just know that it is conscious and would do anything to survive (and also has a lot of power like to drag in a whole city from another dimension).
I beg to differ. The game makes it quite clear in numerous occasions that spirituality is a fact of the Chronoverse...every living entity possesses a spirit and thus so does the Planet, unless you're trying to argue that somehow the basis of life on the Chronoverse Planet is somehow bereft of the spirit that everything it birthed has.
Oh and btw, the CT world was based on our world (especially with Lavos mirroring the KT meteor). Because Lavos created an ice age, whilst almost destroying all life, it just shows that even if a bunch of things get destroyed, life flourishes again (after the ice age).
Now see, this is irrelevant information, because whether it was based on our world or not--and I do agree it was--it does not change the theme of the game, nor does it change the stated facts. The Planet was dying and would not be able to recover, thus it saved itself via the Heroes of Time. End of story! Why else would it create the Gates?! You still haven't given me a plausible explanation. It makes no sense and contradicts the entire point of the game.
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I beg to differ. The game makes it quite clear in numerous occasions that spirituality is a fact of the Chronoverse...every living entity possesses a spirit and thus so does the Planet, unless you're trying to argue that somehow the basis of life on the Chronoverse Planet is somehow bereft of the spirit that everything it birthed has.
Yet again, give evidence for it. What you just said came unbacked by any in game evidence. We have apparitions of Crono, Marle and Lucca in CC, but that doesn't mean that everything is born with a spirit, not that is the basis of life. You, my friend, seem to be mixing CT with FF7, where the planet does actually have spiritual energy that keeps the world in balance. CT does not have that stated anywhere. We know for certain that the planet is physical, and that there is an entity which is the planets consciousness. Anything about spirituality doesn't exist, except the Zealian belief in dreams and Zurvan, that when you die, you return back to the sea of dreaming, and Zurvan might aswell be the entity.
Now see, this is irrelevant information, because whether it was based on our world or not--and I do agree it was--it does not change the theme of the game, nor does it change the stated facts. The Planet was dying and would not be able to recover, thus it saved itself via the Heroes of Time. End of story! Why else would it create the Gates?! You still haven't given me a plausible explanation. It makes no sense and contradicts the entire point of the game.
In game, it was already stated what was going on, if you're so into the Fiona's Forest scene.
Supposedly the planets' consciousness was dying and was looking back in time to events where it wish it could change something, but couldn't, and this probably created some sort of rift in time and space, creating the gates. In the original timeline, nobody time travelled. The second time around, Crono and co did and saved the world. From the point Lavos is defeated, he isn't in the Earth anymore, so this time, if we went back to 1000AD at the beginning of the game, there probably would be no gate, otherwise there'd be a constant loop, and then Chronopolis couldn't appear without not existing in the future (because Crono and co have to go back to 2300AD to see the ruined time line to save the future).
Also, if the planet was dying, it'd already be dead from the start as it's being continues till the very end of time.
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Yet again, give evidence for it. What you just said came unbacked by any in game evidence. We have apparitions of Crono, Marle and Lucca in CC, but that doesn't mean that everything is born with a spirit, not that is the basis of life. You, my friend, seem to be mixing CT with FF7, where the planet does actually have spiritual energy that keeps the world in balance. CT does not have that stated anywhere. We know for certain that the planet is physical, and that there is an entity which is the planets consciousness. Anything about spirituality doesn't exist, except the Zealian belief in dreams and Zurvan, that when you die, you return back to the sea of dreaming, and Zurvan might aswell be the entity.
Oh? How about Robo's comment about the Epoch focusing all of human spirituality? Or the number of comments about the Masamune possessing spiritual energy? Or the ghost of Cyrus? There is a definite spiritual aspect to life in the Chronoverse, whether you choose to see it or not.
In game, it was already stated what was going on, if you're so into the Fiona's Forest scene.
Supposedly the planets' consciousness was dying and was looking back in time to events where it wish it could change something, but couldn't, and this probably created some sort of rift in time and space, creating the gates. In the original timeline, nobody time travelled. The second time around, Crono and co did and saved the world. From the point Lavos is defeated, he isn't in the Earth anymore, so this time, if we went back to 1000AD at the beginning of the game, there probably would be no gate, otherwise there'd be a constant loop, and then Chronopolis couldn't appear without not existing in the future (because Crono and co have to go back to 2300AD to see the ruined time line to save the future).
I'm sorry, could you please rephrase this to actually mean something? All you seem to be doing here is stating game facts and what we've theorized when it comes to Chrono Compendium theorums.
Also, if the planet was dying, it'd already be dead from the start as it's being continues till the very end of time.
Where do you get this idea that it is alive at the End of Time? You've said this more than once but it means absolutely nothing. The Planet was dying as of 2300 A.D. and would likely die soon after that year. What little was left was being fed upon by the Lavos Spawn, as we can determine because there is no other food source available for them. Now, if you're saying it was alive at the End of Time because the Planet created the Gates, then you seem to be bouncing back and forth between theories. Half the time you state the Planet isn't the Entity but when it agrees with your ridiculous perception of the Chrono series you immediately seize hold of it and use it however you wish...not unlike so many other irrational debaters who know their argument is bull and is grasping at straws just to convince other people. (And if you're wondering how I know this, I've been reading up a lot of the debates here on the Compendium and I've noticed how often you tend to be this stubbornly thickheaded.)
In any case, your point is not a point. The Planet would presumeably be dead by the End of Time, since nothing exists there except for Gaspar, Spekkio, and the Gate links. It might not truly be the End of Time...after all, the retranslation states it to be the "Farthest Reaches of Time" which while it can mean the End of all Time, it might also mean something outside of time, somewhat like the DBT.
Once again, I question why the Planet would create the Gates if it would recover. Provide a plausible explanation please. You keep ignoring this question and you will prove your argument is baseless and nothing but a flawed perception of Chrono Trigger.
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Maybe this specific planet would recover, but it wants to kill Lavos to prevent the Lavos Spawn from destroying other planets, which, for some unknown reason, wouldn't be not able to recover? The planet is protecting other planets?
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Maybe this specific planet would recover, but it wants to kill Lavos to prevent the Lavos Spawn from destroying other planets, which, for some unknown reason, wouldn't be not able to recover? The planet is protecting other planets?
While I like the idea since I'm all for cooporation by all sentient life, I don't think that's what's going on here, mainly because nothing is ever stated that would suggest this other than the one-off badly translated line by the Mother Brain in the North American translation.
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Oh? How about Robo's comment about the Epoch focusing all of human spirituality? Or the number of comments about the Masamune possessing spiritual energy? Or the ghost of Cyrus? There is a definite spiritual aspect to life in the Chronoverse, whether you choose to see it or not.
Robo's comment was different in the Japanese version. I brought that up about a year ago, and found out that his Japanese comment
Robo: Unbelievable energy! ロボ「見たこともないエネルギー！ Robo: Energy such as I have never seen!
As if the sum total of all the human まるで人間の精神力を、おそろしく Just as though it has amplified the power of the
spiritual power that has ever existed ぞうふくしたような……！！[END] human spirit to a terrifying extent......!!
were somehow being amplified...
Human spirit (will) and spirituality is different.
Besides, we all know Epoch was built on a proton drive system as Belthasar stated in CC.
And then again, we can always argue that Epoch has a mind of it's own.
Where do you get this idea that it is alive at the End of Time? You've said this more than once but it means absolutely nothing. The Planet was dying as of 2300 A.D. and would likely die soon after that year. What little was left was being fed upon by the Lavos Spawn, as we can determine because there is no other food source available for them. Now, if you're saying it was alive at the End of Time because the Planet created the Gates, then you seem to be bouncing back and forth between theories. Half the time you state the Planet isn't the Entity but when it agrees with your ridiculous perception of the Chrono series you immediately seize hold of it and use it however you wish...not unlike so many other irrational debaters who know their argument is bull and is grasping at straws just to convince other people. (And if you're wondering how I know this, I've been reading up a lot of the debates here on the Compendium and I've noticed how often you tend to be this stubbornly thickheaded.)
I know that the entity is the planet, so I don't know what you're talking about.
What you don't understand is that the planet, like Lavos, transcends time. The moment Lavos is dead, he's dead forever unless there will be a continuous loop that would negate the effects of CC. Like wise with the planet, because it transcends time, it it was going to die, it'd already be dead from a future perspective, and wouldn't be able to create the gates.
If anything, the gates were created to make sure that the human race doesn't end, or that maybe the planet will barely survive, but it will have no organisms on it, who knows.
We know from CC that the planet wept for all the fighting and loss of life, so the planet may have created the time gates to make sure the humans continue on (as they created it's most happiest memories).
Once again, I question why the Planet would create the Gates if it would recover. Provide a plausible explanation please. You keep ignoring this question and you will prove your argument is baseless and nothing but a flawed perception of Chrono Trigger.
I <3 your hypocrisies.
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Robo's comment was different in the Japanese version. I brought that up about a year ago, and found out that his Japanese comment
Robo: Unbelievable energy! ロボ「見たこともないエネルギー！ Robo: Energy such as I have never seen!
As if the sum total of all the human まるで人間の精神力を、おそろしく Just as though it has amplified the power of the
spiritual power that has ever existed ぞうふくしたような……！！[END] human spirit to a terrifying extent......!!
were somehow being amplified...
Human spirit (will) and spirituality is different.
Besides, we all know Epoch was built on a proton drive system as Belthasar stated in CC.
And then again, we can always argue that Epoch has a mind of it's own.
Fine, so Robo's comment is invalidated in that particular instance. it still does not invalidate the other examples of spirituality in the Chronoverse. Why are you so insistant on denying spirituality in the Chronoverse? Might it be that that you find such a thing distasteful? I don't see why. I'm an atheist and I love seeing spirituality in fiction...it helps enrich things.
I know that the entity is the planet, so I don't know what you're talking about.
Good for you. Stick to it then.
What you don't understand is that the planet, like Lavos, transcends time.
Not exactly. They can affect time, but they do not trasncend it. Lavos is a special case because he lives in his own Pocket Dimension, and as such experiences a different flow of time from the Planet. The Planet, on the other hand, lives inside the normal timeline. The moment Lavos is dead, he's dead forever unless there will be a continuous loop that would negate the effects of CC. Like wise with the planet, because it transcends time, it it was going to die, it'd already be dead from a future perspective, and wouldn't be able to create the gates.
No. The Planet does not transcend time so your point is invalidated. The Planet created the Gates in as it lay dying--whenever that period might have been, though most probably 2300--and died afterwards, from that point in time. Prior to that the Planet is still alive. Now, if the Planet DID transcend time, you'd be right, but unfortunately it would also disrupt the entire timeline...without the Planet living everything else would die off, and as such there would be no game. Thus the very fact this does not happen proves the Planet does not transcend time, unless you're trying to argue for a paradox.
If anything, the gates were created to make sure that the human race doesn't end
Invalid point. Being the mother from which all life upon it is birthed, the Planet might be able to recreate the human species. Even if it could not, it could create an alternative species.
, or that maybe the planet will barely survive, but it will have no organisms on it, who knows.
Now see, how is that different from the Planet being dead? See, you're starting to get it. With just a bit more we might crack that stubborn shell of yours and get you to admit the truth.
We know from CC that the planet wept for all the fighting and loss of life, so the planet may have created the time gates to make sure the humans continue on (as they created it's most happiest memories).
I find that unlikely at best, given how the Planet also pulled Dinopolis into its own timeline in order to fight against Chronopolis, a city of--you guessed it--humans. Furthermore, while I'm sure the Planet weeps for the loss of life, that does not mean that everyime a species is lost it needs to create a series of Gates and muck with the timeline. Obviously it did not do so for the Reptites, which is mildly confusing since the Reptites would eventually evolve a more symbiotic relationship with the Planet rather than humanity's tendency to rape the environment of its resources wherever humanity travels, so I don't see why it would do so for a species that harms the Planet and is the source of all of that fighting and loss of life it weeps for.
No, it created the Gates to save itself from death, because that is the whole point of the bloody game.
I <3 your hypocrisies.
Oh? I am hypocritical? Care to prove where I'm hypocritical, or are you just tossing out an insult because you know your argument is faulty?
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Fine, so Robo's comment is invalidated in that particular instance. it still does not invalidate the other examples of spirituality in the Chronoverse. Why are you so insistant on denying spirituality in the Chronoverse? Might it be that that you find such a thing distasteful? I don't see why. I'm an atheist and I love seeing spirituality in fiction...it helps enrich things.
My point was that spiritual energy doesn't exist. It was a bad mistranslation/word usage for the aura being emitted from Lavos/Epoch etc. Gamers believe that the children in the Dead Sea are apparitions, as they look like children, and know what they shouldn't know. Cyrus is a ghost, so he's still in the physical world, like all ghosts. Heck, even Pokemon has ghosts. My point is that CT and CC never bring up an idea of heaven or hell, nor "the other side". So your point is irrelevant since your adapting it to our world. We only know that there is a belief in a place called Zurvan, where everything returns to (so all of CT is just a dream pretty much). I don't mind that whole motif with connected souls and ghosts stuck in the world until they are at rest, but from the games perspective, an afterlife is not ever mentioned.
Now see, how is that different from the Planet being dead? See, you're starting to get it. With just a bit more we might crack that stubborn shell of yours and get you to admit the truth.
It's very different from the planet being dead. Having no organisms doesn't mean the planet is dead. The robots can live on it still, the environment can recover, but humans will be gone, and mystics.
However, Mother Brain said that the planet WILL recover, and that humans could live on, but their hopelessness is stopping them, so Mother Brain will wipe them out for them.
No, it created the Gates to save itself from death, because that is the whole point of the bloody game.
Maybe. But then again, the planet might have survived, but not know it, as you said it doesn't transcend time.
And as the game stated, the gates weren't created to save itself, but it was dying and looking back. So we can assume that it caused a rift in time, and Crono and co took up the challenge to save the planet, we know that for sure.
Other than that, the planet is a bitch that could drag in a whole entire race and the energy of the other planet (hence probably ruining the reptite dimension), yet couldn't save itself with that same power. GG.
Oh? I am hypocritical? Care to prove where I'm hypocritical, or are you just tossing out an insult because you know your argument is faulty?
My argument may have errors, but it's just like yours. Plus, you're the one not accepting in game stated facts. If its stated, it's true. Otherwise I could just say that Crono and co were wrong in saying that Lavos was only absorbing DNA and genes to evolve, or that Marle isnt a princess (even though it's stated that she is).
If it's in game, it's undeniable. Mother Brain is stated to have decided to do what it wants, heck it has a powerful AI.
Because no character in the game said it was lying, or what it was saying was impossible, nor countered it, Mother Brains statement holds true.
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My point was that spiritual energy doesn't exist. It was a bad mistranslation/word usage for the aura being emitted from Lavos/Epoch etc. Gamers believe that the children in the Dead Sea are apparitions, as they look like children, and know what they shouldn't know. Cyrus is a ghost, so he's still in the physical world, like all ghosts. Heck, even Pokemon has ghosts. My point is that CT and CC never bring up an idea of heaven or hell, nor "the other side". So your point is irrelevant since your adapting it to our world. We only know that there is a belief in a place called Zurvan, where everything returns to (so all of CT is just a dream pretty much). I don't mind that whole motif with connected souls and ghosts stuck in the world until they are at rest, but from the games perspective, an afterlife is not ever mentioned.
Where the hell did an afterlife even become mentioned? Spirituality does not have to deal with an afterlife, you know. Furthermore, ghosts are typically spiritual entities, and magic is usually spiritual in nature. Spitiuality is a part of the Chronoverse, again, whether you accept it or not.
It's very different from the planet being dead. Having no organisms doesn't mean the planet is dead. The robots can live on it still, the environment can recover, but humans will be gone, and mystics.
However, Mother Brain said that the planet WILL recover, and that humans could live on, but their hopelessness is stopping them, so Mother Brain will wipe them out for them.
Ah, we return to the Mother Brain...I guess you just couldn't accept that it was a corrupted computer program stating one line which is not backed up anywhere else in the game.
Maybe. But then again, the planet might have survived, but not know it, as you said it doesn't transcend time.
Most of the time, when one is dying, one will know it, especially a being as intelligent and spiritual as a freaking Planet. A Planet, given what it is, is most likely far more sentient than we are, and thus would be able to determine whether or not it is dying.
And as the game stated, the gates weren't created to save itself, but it was dying and looking back.
Yes, looking back and regretting what has happened over the course of 65,000,000 years of its life and thus seeks to change it.
Other than that, the planet is a bitch that could drag in a whole entire race and the energy of the other planet (hence probably ruining the reptite dimension), yet couldn't save itself with that same power. GG.
Retrieving a large city/tower structure and all beings within it, plus a second moon are not equivalent to destroying an entity with as much power and ability to affect time as Lavos. If the Planet could have simply plucked Lavos and tossed Lavos aside, the Planet would have done so, so please don't bring this argument up, because it just makes you look foolish.
My argument may have errors, but it's just like yours.
No, it's not. Your argument is flawed, faulty, and incorrect. My argument may have a minor error or two(and if it does I will seek to correct those errors) but is otherwise based in logic and fact.
Plus, you're the one not accepting in game stated facts.
Bullshit. You're the one denying the fact that the Planet is dying and/or already dead! I'm the one trying to argue from game facts! You are referring, no doubt, to the Mother Brain line, which was the whole basis of this thread to begin with. I again point out that the line is contradicted by other game evidence and was stated by an insane, corrupted computer program. We cannot simply accept every single line if game evidence later says otherwise, because if we did that we'd have loads of contradictory information, not just in this game but in many, many games. Think about how often a party speculates about something early on and later turns out to be wrong. Case in point: the party speculates about Lavos being the source of all Gates at the Tyrano Lair Ruins just before heading to 12,000 B.C. for the first time. Obviously, this was wrong. Similiarly, the Mother Brain is wrong. See my point?
If its stated, it's true.
Not always, as stated above.
Otherwise I could just say that Crono and co were wrong in saying that Lavos was only absorbing DNA and genes to evolve, or that Marle isnt a princess (even though it's stated that she is).
Faulty logic.
If it's in game, it's undeniable.
Then both Lavos and the Planet created Gates. Sephiroth is not a clone and is a clone. Cloud is a Soldier First Class and also a grunt. Ect ect. Faulty logic.
Mother Brain is stated to have decided to do what it wants, heck it has a powerful AI.
So does Robo, and Robo has lived for at least 100 years longer than the Mother Brain, and is not corrupted.
Because no character in the game said it was lying, or what it was saying was impossible, nor countered it, Mother Brains statement holds true.
Ah, I see, because no one questioned what she was saying right at that moment, it must mean it is true, despite later game evidence stating otherwise, not to mention the entire point of the game. Once again: faulty logic.
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Well, if you want to talk about evidence, then take Mother Brain's words into account. She never claimed the planet would only be fit for mechanical beings. Something about the humans still being alive was making things worse. And those monsters in the highways...What are they?
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Well, if you want to talk about evidence, then take Mother Brain's words into account.
I have, and then dismissed them due to the bevy of evidence suggesting otherwise as well as the fact that she is a corrupted A.I. that is obviously acting against her programming. I am not simply ignoring her words, mind, but taking them into account and then dismissing them for the reasons stated. Though the result is the same the difference in process is significant and should not be taken lightly.
She never claimed the planet would only be fit for mechanical beings. Something about the humans still being alive was making things worse.
Right, she said the Planet would recover if only humans were not around, but that makes no sense. If anything, biological organisms such as humans and the seeds they may plant from Melchior's seedling would be necessary to aid in the recovery of the Planet. Furthermore, she is committing mass genocide against all organic life. To be frank, her words are meaningless when taking her actions into account. She is corrupted and cannot be trusted.
And those monsters in the highways...What are they?
Mutated life forms, possibly life forms more resistant to radiation than other life forms that subsequently mutated into their current forms, though said forms are not sustainable in the environment that exists in 2300 A.D. They will eventually exhaust the remaining food supply--the other mutated life forms and the few rats--and begin feeding upon each other, presuming they are not already wiped out by robots by that time.
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You seem to be confusing Mother Brain for being crazy.
The game regards Mother Brain, and the whole series as being rogue, and corrupt in the sense that they got above their programming and have their own free will.
CC shows that more in depth with FATE.
The simple fact that Mother Brain is so powerful that she can think for herself only proves that she would have a ring of truth in her speech, after all her AI is probably that or greater to that of a humans.
BTW, even Robo didn't disregard her speech. The reason they stopped her was because they didn't want humans to be dying because Crono and co knew that those people had a hopeful, bright future, otherwise why bother with them.
Heck, even at the end of the game, nobody mentions that Lavos was killing the planet. They only cared about him being in the Earth, collecting DNA to slaughter the humans later. It's the same thing that Mother Brain is doing, and it works perfectly as to an idea for why the planet would dream of a way to save them.
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You seem to be confusing Mother Brain for being crazy.
That's exactly what I'm saying, though her insanity is more a case of corruption rather than mental illness as it would be in a sentient biological life form. Either way, the result is the same: she cannot be trusted.
The game regards Mother Brain, and the whole series as being rogue, and corrupt in the sense that they got above their programming and have their own free will.
CC shows that more in depth with FATE.
I agree with you somewhat, but the Mother Brain was corrupted while FATE simply evolved its own programming over the course of thousands of years. While FATE's A.I. was based on the Mother Brain A.I., we're talking basic programming here, not all of the potential personality details and whatnot. The two cases are completely different. FATE existed for over ten thousand years, while the Mother Brain turned into a genocidal maniac.
The simple fact that Mother Brain is so powerful that she can think for herself only proves that she would have a ring of truth in her speech, after all her AI is probably that or greater to that of a humans.
Ah, yes, because everything everyone who has ever existed that is sentient must be true. I'll go ahead and say something now: Flying monkeys inhabit Sidney Australia and rule the world. Obviously this is untrue, but according to your logic it must be true.
BTW, even Robo didn't disregard her speech. The reason they stopped her was because they didn't want humans to be dying because Crono and co knew that those people had a hopeful, bright future, otherwise why bother with them.
I once again point out that just because no one questioned it at the exact time does not make it true. The evidence against it, as well as the evidence for the Mother Brain's untrustworthyness far exceeds whatever possible truth her words might hold. You may have noticed that the party does not bother to respond to anything she says, only reacting when directly confronting her.
Heck, even at the end of the game, nobody mentions that Lavos was killing the planet. They only cared about him being in the Earth, collecting DNA to slaughter the humans later. It's the same thing that Mother Brain is doing, and it works perfectly as to an idea for why the planet would dream of a way to save them.
...excuse me? I'm not fully understanding what you're trying to say here. So they do not mention to Lavos that he is killing the planet; this is irrelevant as they do mention this in other scenes, such as that scene in the ending that appears if the Fiona's Forest scene is not witnessed, as I have repeatedly stated and you have repeatedly ignored. Furthermore, are you trying to say that the Mother Brain was trying to save the Planet or something? I fail to see anything of actual meaning in your statement with the Mother Brain.
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Mother Brain would have no reason to lie. It would probably know of the situation in the future more than most people. It expected to deal with Crono and Co. without question, so why would it make things up? Anything Mother Brain said was probably for a reason, since it was fully functioning, right? Why does the planet have to die off in order to make their adventure important enough? Maybe life itself is a sign of a planet's healthiness. Losing billions and billions of life forms due to Lavos would annoy the planet enough to want it out, no? If not, who likes to have a parasite in their guts? That too is reason enough for the planet to act.
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Mother Brain would have no reason to lie.
I didn't say she would lie, I said she was wrong because she is corrupted; there is a serious difference.
It would probably know of the situation in the future more than most people. It expected to deal with Crono and Co. without question, so why would it make things up? Anything Mother Brain said was probably for a reason, since it was fully functioning, right?
Functioning, yes, but I would not call it fully, at least not in terms of sanity.
Why does the planet have to die off in order to make their adventure important enough?
I never said that the Planet has to die. I said that the Planet is dying, as stated! It is a game fact!
Maybe life itself is a sign of a planet's healthiness. Losing billions and billions of life forms due to Lavos would annoy the planet enough to want it out, no? If not, who likes to have a parasite in their guts? That too is reason enough for the planet to act.
Yeah, see, that parasite? It's been there for over 65,000,000 years. Lavos has been sucking the Planet dry, and that is killing the Planet. How would you react if something attached to you and sucked out your life force? Without said life force/energy/whatever, you would obviously die, as is the Planet! Why is this so hard to understand?
Honestly, people, the whole point of the game is to save the Planet--and, also, humanity and all other life upon it--from death via Lavos. So why would the bloody Planet recover?! Why are you so interested in taking the word of a corrupted computer program that has turned into a genocidal maniac over Robo and the main party, as well as the other bevy of evidence all supporting the death of the Planet?
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Actually, looking back now, nobody stated that the planet was dying.
At the campfire scene, it was stated that the gates were like someone looking back into their past, looking back at all the sad memories, where they wanted to change things on their dying bed.
Because it's not stated explicitly, we know nothing of what is happening to the planet. We don't know if it'll recover or not. The simple fact is that the planet looked back, and wanted to change something, and so Crono and co took up the challenge.
And you didn't answer me.
What would the point of Crono and co getting the seed for the people in 2300AD be, and stopping Mother Brain form killing humans, if they were all just going to die anyway? It is stated that the seed is magical and can recover the environment. It is stated that the humans have hope and will continue to survive. And it's stated that Lavos absorbed the DNA of all life to become powerful.
It's never stated the the planet is dying/dead, except there is an analogy for the gates.
Also, computers don't have sanity, they're pure logical. That's why they're cold and bureaucratic. Mother Brain thinks that the humans are a waste of space, so shes killing them so so there can be a new age of machines. There.
But since shes stopped, the humans have a chance.
It's just that the planet doesn't want machines to rule, and it wants to avoid the Day of Lavos all together.
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Actually, looking back now, nobody stated that the planet was dying.
Oh? They said the entity is dying, and the Planet is the Entity. Ergo, the Planet is dying.
At the campfire scene, it was stated that the gates were like someone looking back into their past, looking back at all the sad memories, where they wanted to change things on their dying bed.
Because it's not stated explicitly, we know nothing of what is happening to the planet. We don't know if it'll recover or not. The simple fact is that the planet looked back, and wanted to change something, and so Crono and co took up the challenge.
I will quote from the original North American game script:
Robo: After 400 years of
experience, I have come to think that
Lavos may not be responsible for the
Gates.
Robo: I have come to think that
someone, or something wanted us to
see all this.
The different events over time, that
we have witnessed.
It is almost as if some entity wanted
to relive its past.
Ayla: Ayla know!
When people die, elders say, see
whole life pass by!
Frog: 'Tis true that mortals do
relive their most profound memories
before death claimeth them.
Yet those memories most often are
sad ones.
Robo: Thinking things like, «If only
I had done this,» or, «I shouldn't
have done that...» triggers
unpleasant, old memories.
If you'd like, I can try and copy from the retranslation, though I hate doing so because of the poor formatting. In any case, these quotes make my point quite clear.
And you didn't answer me.
Answer you? I don't recall a specific question, but I will endevour to look more closely in the future to be sure I don't miss anything.
What would the point of Crono and co getting the seed for the people in 2300AD be, and stopping Mother Brain form killing humans, if they were all just going to die anyway?
Almost all of the actions of the game are rewritten many times over in the course of the story. Why did they get the seed? Because they offered to help. Why did they destroy the Mother Brain? Because it helped Robo settle a part of his past as well as allow him to gain his ultimate weapons. Simple enough, really; I would think you would know this.
It is stated that the seed is magical and can recover the environment.
Oh for the love of...you surely cannot be on about this again. I already told you why this cannot work; magic cannot just do anything it pleases. One plant is not going to recover an entire freaking planet. Furthermore, in order for it to recover anything, it must be able to grow in decent soil, which it will not be able to do once the Planet has died, which it is close to doing in 2300 A.D--I would say it was dead already except some life does still remain, and the Lavos Spawn need some form of food source.
It is stated that the humans have hope and will continue to survive.
Good for them! It won't matter a bit if the Mother Brain killed them all, or if the Planet dies anyway if the Mother Brain is dead, because without the living Planet, the humans will not be able to survive. To be honest, considering the absolute lack of any vegetation on the surface of the planet it's a wonder there is a breathable atmosphere at all. And it's stated that Lavos absorbed the DNA of all life to become powerful.
I fail to see what this has to do with anything you're trying to prove. Furthermore, while he examined all DNA he would only absorb that which would make him stronger. Call it quibbling over details, but that's what happened.
It's never stated the the planet is dying/dead, except there is an analogy for the gates.
Incorrect. They state the Entity is dying. The Entity is the Planet. Therefore the Planet is dying.
Also, computers don't have sanity, they're pure logical.
Which is why their version of insanity is corruption, as I've repeatedly said time and again. Keep up, please, instead of making a mountain out of a molehill. That's why they're cold and bureaucratic.
That's only if they're not programmed with emotions. The Mother Brain obviously possessed at least a few emotions, such as rage. Besides, any A.I. of the level of the Mother Brain would be programmed with morality as well, to keep the A.I. from deciding coldly and logically that humans are a waste. The Mother Brain was corrupted by the Day of Lavos event.
Mother Brain thinks that the humans are a waste of space, so shes killing them so so there can be a new age of machines. There.
Well, thank you Captain Obvious. Have anything else you'd like to point out?
But since shes stopped, the humans have a chance.
Minute at best, presuming the plant is able to survive long enough to provide any sort of a food source, and provided there are enough humans left that they have a reasonable gene pool from which to draw from...without such a pool you'd have inbreeding and eventual extinction of the species...but this all presumes that the Planet would survive for much longer, which is doubtful at best, considering how fast those spawn were growing...hell, I'd say they were close to maturity, or at least close to leaving the Chrono Planet and heading out into space.
It's just that the planet doesn't want machines to rule, and it wants to avoid the Day of Lavos all together.
I don't see why the Planet would give a damn if machines were ruling; it was trying to save itself from death. How much more do I need to say?
The Planet was being sucked dry for 65,000,000 years, then has its surface devestated beyond imagination, with the oceans acidified and all vegetation wiped out, with a barely breathable atmosphere most probably sustained only because the Planet itself is barely holding on. Meanwhile, the Lavos Spawn feed from the Planet and suck the last of its life. When it dies, they would leave.
A Planet Cannot Recover After a Lavoid Attack. By the time a Lavoid is attacking the surface to eliminate threats to its spawn it is already too late; the damage is done. Whatever minute hopes exist for a recovery are sucked away by the spawn as they feed their growth to maturity.
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At the campfire scene, it was stated that the gates were like someone looking back into their past, looking back at all the sad memories, where they wanted to change things on their dying bed.
Because it's not stated explicitly, we know nothing of what is happening to the planet. We don't know if it'll recover or not. The simple fact is that the planet looked back, and wanted to change something, and so Crono and co took up the challenge.
I will quote from the original North American game script:
Robo: After 400 years of
experience, I have come to think that
Lavos may not be responsible for the
Gates.
Robo: I have come to think that
someone, or something wanted us to
see all this.
The different events over time, that
we have witnessed.
It is almost as if some entity wanted
to relive its past.
Ayla: Ayla know!
When people die, elders say, see
whole life pass by!
Frog: 'Tis true that mortals do
relive their most profound memories
before death claimeth them.
Yet those memories most often are
sad ones.
Robo: Thinking things like, «If only
I had done this,» or, «I shouldn't
have done that...» triggers
unpleasant, old memories.
If you'd like, I can try and copy from the retranslation, though I hate doing so because of the poor formatting. In any case, these quotes make my point quite clear.
[/quote]
You do know that 3/4 of that scene was directed at Lucca's gate to save her mother. Maybe you didn't realize that it was all about sad memories, and going back to a point when you could change something sad...
And it still isn't stated directly that the entity is dying, so you fail again at proving it -.-
Oh, and at the end of the game, Lucca simply asks if maybe some higher power wanted them to see the events, not save the planet -.-
At most, CT is about saving the future.
Oh for the love of...you surely cannot be on about this again. I already told you why this cannot work; magic cannot just do anything it pleases. One plant is not going to recover an entire freaking planet. Furthermore, in order for it to recover anything, it must be able to grow in decent soil, which it will not be able to do once the Planet has died, which it is close to doing in 2300 A.D--I would say it was dead already except some life does still remain, and the Lavos Spawn need some form of food source.
One plant can recover an entire freaking planet, if the game says it can. You're thinking of the seed in terms of our planet. Sure, in our world, that's probably inplausible.
But that plant did grow in their soil, and it sprouted. Give it time and it will grow, and maybe the magic will take effect and boom, plants will pop our everywhere and suck out all the CO2 and crap in the air.
Let me remind you again, anything stated in game, until proven otherwise, is fact.
The seed is said to heal the environment, it's made by the Guru of Life, and it's magical, hence it can save the environment. No more discussion about this one.
Good for them! It won't matter a bit if the Mother Brain killed them all, or if the Planet dies anyway if the Mother Brain is dead, because without the living Planet, the humans will not be able to survive. To be honest, considering the absolute lack of any vegetation on the surface of the planet it's a wonder there is a breathable atmosphere at all.
Why wouldn't it be breathable? All Lavos' attack did was attack the planet, probably injecting the atmosphere with dust, wow...
Plus, they live in domes.
I fail to see what this has to do with anything you're trying to prove. Furthermore, while he examined all DNA he would only absorb that which would make him stronger. Call it quibbling over details, but that's what happened.
Incorrect. They state the Entity is dying. The Entity is the Planet. Therefore the Planet is dying.
The Japanese version seems to concentrate more on the fact that Lavos is absorbing all the DNA of the planet to get strong, not the planet's power.
Its that he attacks it in 1999AD so that his children can come out, probably safely.
And once they're gone, the planet should be able to recover, as Mother Brain said.
However, the planet doesn't want all life to end before new life begins, or the Lavoids to leave or for Lavos to ever erupt, so it remembered its sad moments and the gates occurred.
That works out because Marle states that it's the planet vs Lavos. And by planet, they meant everyone who has ever lived. Odd eh.
Minute at best, presuming the plant is able to survive long enough to provide any sort of a food source, and provided there are enough humans left that they have a reasonable gene pool from which to draw from...without such a pool you'd have inbreeding and eventual extinction of the species...but this all presumes that the Planet would survive for much longer, which is doubtful at best, considering how fast those spawn were growing...hell, I'd say they were close to maturity, or at least close to leaving the Chrono Planet and heading out into space.
You do know that just because theres like 10 humans seen in 2300AD, that doesn't resemble all of them. There'd probably be thousands of survivors. They did live in domes, for crying out loud, and those were bigger than the town sprites. Also, I'm simply assuming that the domes have ventilation, or some fresh supply of oxygen, even if you're saying that the air is poisoned (even though I wouldn't see from Lavos' attack).
Anyway, you do realize that I'm just being the devils advocate. I don't really care if it will recover or not.
It's just the simple fact that anything stated in game is evidence, and unless proven, is moot.
-
You do know that 3/4 of that scene was directed at Lucca's gate to save her mother. Maybe you didn't realize that it was all about sad memories, and going back to a point when you could change something sad...
And it still isn't stated directly that the entity is dying, so you fail again at proving it -.-
The scene was both for the Planet and to set up Lucca's own scene bit. I only quoted the relevant text. Furthermore, the whole point is that the reason the Planet is viewing these memories and trying to change its own past is thanks to the fact it is dying! I don't see how that can be any clearer!
Oh, and at the end of the game, Lucca simply asks if maybe some higher power wanted them to see the events, not save the planet -.-
Yes, because they didn't know the Planet is the Entity. If they had, they would have said something specific about that. You are beginning to try my patience.
At most, CT is about saving the future.
Yes, the Planet's future, and the ability of the Planet to continue living.
One plant can recover an entire freaking planet, if the game says it can. You're thinking of the seed in terms of our planet. Sure, in our world, that's probably inplausible.
But that plant did grow in their soil, and it sprouted. Give it time and it will grow, and maybe the magic will take effect and boom, plants will pop our everywhere and suck out all the CO2 and crap in the air.
The game did not say it could magically save the entire planet. The North American translation stated it could cure the environment, while the retranslation stated it could protect greenery. Both comments mean that it can heal what already exists but it cannot simply recreate an entire ecosystem! The most we ever see this plant do is reverse desertification in one area, and that required large amounts of plants over 400 YEARS worth of planting. Fact is, the Planet and humanity does not have that kind of time.
As for why it grew...this plant is designed to grow in harsher environments, and there would still be nutrients left in the soil, at least till the Planet died. And this one plant will not be capable of creating enough oxygen for an entire planet's atmosphere...not even a forest would do so. You're being ridiculous and you know it.
Let me remind you again, anything stated in game, until proven otherwise, is fact.
HAH! HAH! I've got you! I have freaking GOT YOU! You just admitted this, and as such you must now admit that the Planet is dying and cannot recover! Because, as you say, anything stated, unless proven otherwise, is fact. And the Mother Brain's statement can be proven incorrect. Therefore you just admitted your argument fails. But, to humour you, I will still address the rest of your argument since you're not going to actually accept this...
The seed is said to heal the environment, it's made by the Guru of Life, and it's magical, hence it can save the environment. No more discussion about this one.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but you are attributing one plant capabilities that far exceed what it is truly capable of. Just because something is magical does not mean it can do absolutely anything it wishes at any time. Its magic simply allows it to flourish in much harsher environments and aid in recovery.
By the way...are we entirely certain that the seeds found in the Arris Dome food storage section are, in fact, the seedlings of the magical plant? Now that I think about it I'm not sure this was ever confirmed. (Not that I really doubt it is, because I don't, but it is something we should confirm before quibbling over this even more.)
Why wouldn't it be breathable? All Lavos' attack did was attack the planet, probably injecting the atmosphere with dust, wow...
Plus, they live in domes.
Wow...you understand absolutely nothing, do you? Let me tick things off one at a time, shall we?
1. It caused numerous fires within forests and other sources of vegetation, which we can conclude because no vegetation remains. This alone would pump massive amounts of CO2 and CO into the atmosphere.
2. The dust you speak of? That's not inconsequential...that alone would cause serious breathing problems and conditions, especially since it seems to be quite persistant even three hundred years after the Day of Lavos.
3. The oceans have acidified, meaning no algae or any other ocean based vegetation can give off oxygen and counteract any of the CO2 and CO pumped into the atmosphere.
4. Whole sections of continents are literally GONE. We're talking enormous devestation, and probably at least some volcanic activity if Lavos destroyed continents, which would pump even MORE poisons into the atmosphere.
5. Every single one of those Domes--except for Bangor Dome, I think--had loads of dust in the air. Obviously those domes are no longer airtight, which is not surprising considering the devestation wrought.
It is a miracle that the air is breathable at all, and this can only be attributed to the fact that the Planet is barely hanging on doing its best to keep what little humanity that lives alive, which alone proves that the Planet is responsible for maintaining living conditions upon its surface, and that without it all life will perish.
The Japanese version seems to concentrate more on the fact that Lavos is absorbing all the DNA of the planet to get strong, not the planet's power.
Its that he attacks it in 1999AD so that his children can come out, probably safely.
Yes, in terms of strengthening himself, but he does need a source of food and energy, and that's what he's sucking from the Planet.
And once they're gone, the planet should be able to recover, as Mother Brain said.
Oh? In neither version did the Mother Brain state that the Planet could recover if the Lavos Spawn were gone...she stated that the Planet would recover if HUMANITY was gone....you're slipping...you can't even remember your own faulty base for your argument correctly.
However, the planet doesn't want all life to end before new life begins, or the Lavoids to leave or for Lavos to ever erupt, so it remembered its sad moments and the gates occurred.
Yes...and it wanted to save itself as well. No new life could occur without the Planet living, and the Planet would die once the Lavos Spawn are finished growing to maturity.
That works out because Marle states that it's the planet vs Lavos. And by planet, they meant everyone who has ever lived. Odd eh.
Oh? You knew exactly what she meant? I don't think so. I think she meant exactly that it was the Planet AND all who had ever lived upon it versus Lavos.
You do know that just because theres like 10 humans seen in 2300AD, that doesn't resemble all of them. There'd probably be thousands of survivors.
Actually, I am taking scale into account, and no, there would not be "thousands" of survivors. We're talking hundreds at most, and more likely naught over 100 across the entire world. Remember, these survivors would be forced to live on the Entertron, and as powerful as that device is, it could not maintain that many people for three hundred years. Furthermore, you need several thousand to approach a reasonable gene pool, and that's at minimum...you should really try for closer to 10,000 to ensure no potential genetic defects from inbreeding.
They did live in domes, for crying out loud, and those were bigger than the town sprites. Also, I'm simply assuming that the domes have ventilation, or some fresh supply of oxygen, even if you're saying that the air is poisoned (even though I wouldn't see from Lavos' attack).
The domes that survived, even taking scale into account, are not the large city domes. Arris Dome certainly looked like a research station, and Bangor Dome and Trann Dome both appeared to be outposts, possibly--nay, probably--military outposts, which would explain how they could survive the attack when whole continents could not. Furthermore, let's not assume anything...we go by what we see, and by what we can reasonably conclude based on what we see. You're making a blind assumption that they have ventilation and a fresh supply of oxygen when, again, I point out that all of the domes were flooded with dust.
Anyway, you do realize that I'm just being the devils advocate. I don't really care if it will recover or not.
And I don't care. Argue soundly or not at all. A Devil's Advocate is useless if said Advocate cannot argue worth crap.
It's just the simple fact that anything stated in game is evidence, and unless proven, is moot.
I think you mean that anything stated is evidence, but only if not proven otherwise, and I agree.
-
The scene was both for the Planet and to set up Lucca's own scene bit. I only quoted the relevant text. Furthermore, the whole point is that the reason the Planet is viewing these memories and trying to change its own past is thanks to the fact it is dying! I don't see how that can be any clearer!
It's trying to change its past, it doesn't mean its dying. Planets don't just die. The simple fact that the planet has an atmosphere and life means that it's continue to live. Do you think another meteor the size of Texas will end life on Earth? The simple answer is no, and after time, the planet will recover and life will emerge. Same as there. And if the planet was dying, it'd still already be dead then. If Lavos transcends all time, then the planet would be dead from any time period that he landed. And not just that, but even in 1999AD, there were forests everywhere. It's just Lavos' attack that scared the planet.
The game did not say it could magically save the entire planet. The North American translation stated it could cure the environment, while the retranslation stated it could protect greenery. Both comments mean that it can heal what already exists but it cannot simply recreate an entire ecosystem! The most we ever see this plant do is reverse desertification in one area, and that required large amounts of plants over 400 YEARS worth of planting. Fact is, the Planet and humanity does not have that kind of time.
As for why it grew...this plant is designed to grow in harsher environments, and there would still be nutrients left in the soil, at least till the Planet died. And this one plant will not be capable of creating enough oxygen for an entire planet's atmosphere...not even a forest would do so. You're being ridiculous and you know it.
Wow...you understand absolutely nothing, do you? Let me tick things off one at a time, shall we?
1. It caused numerous fires within forests and other sources of vegetation, which we can conclude because no vegetation remains. This alone would pump massive amounts of CO2 and CO into the atmosphere.
2. The dust you speak of? That's not inconsequential...that alone would cause serious breathing problems and conditions, especially since it seems to be quite persistant even three hundred years after the Day of Lavos.
3. The oceans have acidified, meaning no algae or any other ocean based vegetation can give off oxygen and counteract any of the CO2 and CO pumped into the atmosphere.
4. Whole sections of continents are literally GONE. We're talking enormous devestation, and probably at least some volcanic activity if Lavos destroyed continents, which would pump even MORE poisons into the atmosphere.
5. Every single one of those Domes--except for Bangor Dome, I think--had loads of dust in the air. Obviously those domes are no longer airtight, which is not surprising considering the devestation wrought.
It is a miracle that the air is breathable at all, and this can only be attributed to the fact that the Planet is barely hanging on doing its best to keep what little humanity that lives alive, which alone proves that the Planet is responsible for maintaining living conditions upon its surface, and that without it all life will perish.
Irrelevant.
You keep thinking that the CT world is like our world, so quite frankly, I can't argue with you.
And aslong as you keep thinking that, i'm still right. The planet recovered from Lavos' crash that killed off the reptites and caused an ice age for millions of years, and as did our planet.
The simple fact that the humans are living is like all that matters. And they're surviving, and they can live in a ruined future.
Oh? In neither version did the Mother Brain state that the Planet could recover if the Lavos Spawn were gone...she stated that the Planet would recover if HUMANITY was gone....you're slipping...you can't even remember your own faulty base for your argument correctly.
I never said that the planet could recover when the Lavos spawn were gone. I actually forgot to write my extra line in there, I though I had wrote it.
But either way, to your argument, if Lavos Spawn are drying the planet of energy and the planet is dying, then what are they feeding on?
Lavos wouldn't leave them on an empty, lifeless shell -.-
By the way...are we entirely certain that the seeds found in the Arris Dome food storage section are, in fact, the seedlings of the magical plant? Now that I think about it I'm not sure this was ever confirmed. (Not that I really doubt it is, because I don't, but it is something we should confirm before quibbling over this even more.)
I think a while ago we confirmed that it was the seed. Since the seed was never used any other time, and it looks just like the one in Zeal, and the very fact that it's growing made us think that it was so.
Actually, I am taking scale into account, and no, there would not be "thousands" of survivors. We're talking hundreds at most, and more likely naught over 100 across the entire world. Remember, these survivors would be forced to live on the Entertron, and as powerful as that device is, it could not maintain that many people for three hundred years. Furthermore, you need several thousand to approach a reasonable gene pool, and that's at minimum...you should really try for closer to 10,000 to ensure no potential genetic defects from inbreeding.
The domes that survived, even taking scale into account, are not the large city domes. Arris Dome certainly looked like a research station, and Bangor Dome and Trann Dome both appeared to be outposts, possibly--nay, probably--military outposts, which would explain how they could survive the attack when whole continents could not. Furthermore, let's not assume anything...we go by what we see, and by what we can reasonably conclude based on what we see. You're making a blind assumption that they have ventilation and a fresh supply of oxygen when, again, I point out that all of the domes were flooded with dust.
Of course it can maintain people for 300 years. All you need to be in there is for like 30 seconds, and you've had a full days worth of sleep, regeneration, etc. You're just hungry. And people have lived that way for 300 years.
Furthermore, if there were many deaths, it'd be on the Day of Lavos, after that the people would respawn after time. Also, it seems that the air would have gotten clearer from the original attack. All that debris would have totally made the planet black, but it's not that way in 2300AD. Either way, those domes are huge, and like bunkers. People would be protected. Ad as to the ventilation, it's working obviously because the whole world still has electricity :/
HAH! HAH! I've got you! I have freaking GOT YOU! You just admitted this, and as such you must now admit that the Planet is dying and cannot recover! Because, as you say, anything stated, unless proven otherwise, is fact. And the Mother Brain's statement can be proven incorrect. Therefore you just admitted your argument fails. But, to humour you, I will still address the rest of your argument since you're not going to actually accept this...
You fail at trying to insult my intelligence...
It's still not stated explicitly that the planet is dying.
And because Mother Brain is in the future of the ruined world, she's the only one who can assess the damage and see if the planet will recover. GG.
Anyway, i'm going to stop arguing here. It's quite boring when it's just you and me. Need more input at any rate.
-
Kyronea, you're doing what Chrono'99 and Sentenal have done before. It's futile.
-
Kyronea, you're doing what Chrono'99 and Sentenal have done before. It's futile.
I know, Zeality, but I can't give it up...my pride, my stubborness, and the truth are on the line, and I will not just abandon this, not when it might make others who aren't reading so closely think I've given up and accepted defeat. It would shame the analysis section and this website.
But thank you, though.
Anyway, i'm going to stop arguing here. It's quite boring when it's just you and me. Need more input at any rate.
Oh, but I am not. Not by a long shot.
It's trying to change its past, it doesn't mean its dying. Planets don't just die.
It's trying to change its past because it is dying. Planets can die if they are spiritual, biological entities like this one. You're thinking our own reality, not the Chronoverse. Keep. Up.
The simple fact that the planet has an atmosphere and life means that it's continue to live
And as I've repeatedly stated, both only mean that it is barely hanging on as of 2300 A.D, and when it dies, both disappear.
Do you think another meteor the size of Texas will end life on Earth? The simple answer is no
Irrelevent. We are discussing the Chronoverse Planet, not Earth.
, and after time, the planet will recover and life will emerge. Same as there.
Nope.
[ And if the planet was dying, it'd still already be dead then. If Lavos transcends all time, then the planet would be dead from any time period that he landed.
Your premise relies on the one incorrect statement that Lavos transcends time. He does not transcend time. He lives outside of it in a parallel timeline in his Pocket Dimension. He can access it from any time, but since he is not stupid, he would want to keep the Planet alive as long as possible to ensure the maximum in both genetic potential and food.
And not just that, but even in 1999AD, there were forests everywhere.
Irrelevant. That map is based on the 600 A.D. map with the 1000 A.D. tileset and cannot be taken as a true map of the world as of 1999 A.D.
It's just Lavos' attack that scared the planet.
Not scarred, but dealt the true blow that would mean death for the Planet. Prior to that the Planet was holding on, fighting him off or otherwise doing something to keep living well. Obviously this is what happens because the Planet does not die after Lavos is killed. Therefore the Day of Lavos event is the turning point that essentially deals the deathblow. Whatever hope the Planet has for survival after that is eliminated by the Lavos Spawn feeding on its remaining energy.
Irrelevant.
Not irrelevant: understanding of how things work. I'm so sorry you refuse to accept the information.
You keep thinking that the CT world is like our world, so quite frankly, I can't argue with you.
I'm saying that certain aspects that have not been shown to work otherwise work like our own world. We know that world has DNA and genetics are the basis of life. We also know the extent of magical power. What we don't know is how the atmosphere works, how geology works, ect ect ect. As such, what else can we assume? After all, as many have pointed out, the Chronoverse Planet is based on Earth, and apart from the differences shown, such as the Planet itself being alive, spirituality, magic, and so on, we have to assume that things work the way they would work on our own planet, and if that disagrees with what you're trying to argue then so be it: that doesn't matter. Facts are facts, Zaper.
And aslong as you keep thinking that, i'm still right.
No, you are not, as I said above.
The planet recovered from Lavos' crash that killed off the reptites and caused an ice age for millions of years, and as did our planet.
The crash was Lavos burrowing into the Planet's core and forming his Pocket Dimension you idiot. Come on, Zaper, you can't possibly be this stupid. Lavos wanted the Planet alive! He was anywhere from 6 to 65,000,000 years younger then! He was not an entity that could have slain the Planet then! At the time it was, at most, like a meteor falling to the Planet...a harsh wound, but not a fatal one by any means.
And as for the ice age, from what I recall that didn't last millions of years, but then the statistics are confusing when it comes to the Chronoverse Planet...going from 65,000,000 B.C. to 12,000 B.C. suggests--vaguely--that an Ice Age existed all that time, but that's ridiculous from a scientific standpoint. All we know is that an Ice Age was in occurance when we arrived, something that for all we know might have been caused by Zeal Kingdom blocking large parts of the sky for hundreds of years.
The simple fact that the humans are living is like all that matters. And they're surviving, and they can live in a ruined future.
I never said that the planet could recover when the Lavos spawn were gone. I actually forgot to write my extra line in there, I though I had wrote it.
Translation: I messed up and saved face.
But either way, to your argument, if Lavos Spawn are drying the planet of energy and the planet is dying, then what are they feeding on?
Lavos wouldn't leave them on an empty, lifeless shell -.-
...I've stated it so many times that I cannot believe you're actually asking this question...okay, let's say it again:
December 31st, 1999 A.D.: Lavos rises up, goes KABOOM and the world is destroyed, dealing a potentially fatal blow to the Planet. This is something the Planet might recover from--and I say might and emphasize it--, but it would need time and to be left completely alone. Unfortunately for the Planet, what energy it has left after the Day of Lavos event is being sucked away by the Spawn.
So no, Lavos did not leave an empty shell, he left a broken and battered one that had enough food for his spawn to reach maturity and head out into space, and it's that remaining feeding process that finally kills the Planet. And before you cry out that I just admitted my argument was wrong with the possibility of recovery, please note that no Lavoid Attack would be without a followup of spawn, because that's the whole point of the attack, to ensure a safe spawning ground. And as such, it's a continuing process...while the initial attack might have been survivable, the feeding by the spawn ensures death.
I think a while ago we confirmed that it was the seed. Since the seed was never used any other time, and it looks just like the one in Zeal, and the very fact that it's growing made us think that it was so.
Fair enough.
Of course it can maintain people for 300 years. All you need to be in there is for like 30 seconds, and you've had a full days worth of sleep, regeneration, etc. You're just hungry. And people have lived that way for 300 years.
Oh of course it could maintain people for 300 years, nevermind the fact that the Enertron is not some kind of magical perpetual motion machine and it needs energy from somewhere. If it had tried to maintains thousands or even hundreds over that time, it would have failed. No piece of hardware could work for that long under such constant use.
Furthermore, if there were many deaths, it'd be on the Day of Lavos, after that the people would respawn after time.
I would say about 99% of the population of humanity would be wiped out, and 100% of the Mystic population. What little is left might respawn for a short time, but we're already talking the potential for inbreeding, and that can cause serious genetic defects. Just ask any dog or horse breeder, or a doctor, for why.
Also, it seems that the air would have gotten clearer from the original attack.
You don't know that. We have no idea how much dust was thrown up in the actual event...all we have is what remains after the event. I do agree at least some would dissapate, though, as it is logical.
All that debris would have totally made the planet black, but it's not that way in 2300AD.
I don't know if it would have made the whole Planet black...but you're probably closer to correct than not with this statement.
Either way, those domes are huge, and like bunkers.
Not that huge, but yes, they are like bunkers, or else they wouldn't have survived at all...it's a miracle that some did.
People would be protected.
Only those in the domes at the time. You forget: the Day of Lavos event occurred over a couple minutes at most....even if there was teleportation technology--which there is no evidence of--almost everyone would be left stranded out in the open, which is part of why I cut my estimate down to about a hundred or so...maybe 200 after the initial attack, but no more than a hundred by 2300 A.D.
Ad as to the ventilation, it's working obviously because the whole world still has electricity :/
...yes...the ventilation MUST be working because some pieces of equipment have electricity! Nevermind the fact that the dust is never expunged, or the possibility that most of that equipment is running on back-up energy sources, or that the only domes shown to have any electricity are Arris and Genocidome, and Genocidome is explainable by the maintaince of robots--same with the factory. As for Arris? It's a research outpost of some kind, as we can determine from the layout of the computers and such. Servers and research computers in our own time have back-up power supplies, so thusly so would this one. Since the computer was most likely not running for 300 years straight but simply activated by Lucca, the power supply would be intact.
By the way, did you forget that in that same dome, refrigeration had failed at some point? Your magical electricity garnering obviously failed there...and don't forget Proto Dome too!
As for the Enertron in all of the domes, it must have its own power source, because otherwise it couldn't keep working. We don't see a single power generator other than the one in the Factory, and obviously that one wasn't broadcasting power anywhere or else Proto Dome would have power from the beginning. Furthermore, what would they be generating power from? The only source I could see potentially still working is tidal energy--and any tidal station might be burnt away from acidified oceans--or some form of hydro station, possibly an underground river source that remained untainted, which would explain where the Sewer Access is getting its water from and where the humans are obtaining their water supply, since even with something that could give them energy, they still need water.
You fail at trying to insult my intelligence...
I wasn't trying to insult your intelligence. Believe me, if I was I could do far worse than crow victory.
It's still not stated explicitly that the planet is dying.
Once again, for the idiot who can't understand simple logic:
They say the Entity is dying. The Entity is the Planet. Therefore the Planet is dying.
And because Mother Brain is in the future of the ruined world, she's the only one who can assess the damage and see if the planet will recover. GG.
Ah, yes, because clearly an A.I. that was running a robotic production factory would have access to the necessary technology to research that possibility, and would still be interested in doing so when it is corrupted and genocidal! Yes, good going, Zaper.
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If I may interrupt, I'd like to give you Kyronea, the award for the worlds longest known post, and the award for most stubborn mule :P <jk>
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Kyronea, this is pretty much opinion. Your interpretation of the vague clues the game gives. Most things we base our opinions on is hinted at, and not directly stated.That's why there are so many theories on anything...I leave you with this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YG1-B1yqu4M
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My opinion is still that we may be extrapolating too much on that quote. Woolsey can translate sentences correctly, sometimes.
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If I may interrupt, I'd like to give you Kyronea, the award for the worlds longest known post, and the award for most stubborn mule :P <jk>
You have much to learn about the internet...if you wish to see truly intense discussion, I point you to NationStates General:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=1227
Kyronea, this is pretty much opinion. Your interpretation of the vague clues the game gives. Most things we base our opinions on is hinted at, and not directly stated.That's why there are so many theories on anything...I leave you with this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YG1-B1yqu4M
That statement means absolutely nothing. If it is opinion, try to use evidence to prove it incorrect. As of right now you are simply stating you feel it is wrong, and while you are entitlted to that opinion, that will not convince anyone.
My opinion is still that we may be extrapolating too much on that quote. Woolsey can translate sentences correctly, sometimes.
You're referring to the Mother Brain quote? If so, you are entirely correct...Zaperking's whole argument is based on this one quote, and as I've said so many times over the course of this thread, that quote cannot be trusted because of who said it and the circumstances of why she said it.
If you're not referring to that quote, then I am confused as to what precisely you mean.
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Ok, Kyronea, so the planet can't recover from Lavos. Which makes him not just a parasite, but a deadly one. However, I'm not sure how this can realy mesh with the idea that the planet and Lavos can co-exist--which you seem to propose in the "Theories and Observations on Lavos" thread. After all, it's not just the 1999 attack that did the planet in--it's the constant leeching of the planet's energy by Lavos that sealed the deal. Lavos and the planet exist on roughly the same scale on terms of energy needs/abilities, it seems--as evidenced, for example, by the dueling cities in Cross. Thus, it seems to me inevitable that a planet will be destroyed by Lavos.
What I think I'm really trying to do here is expand the discussion in this thread--not just on the magnitude, but the nature of a Lavoid attack. Is it a one time thing, or is it continuous?
Note that the weakness of my energy-sucking theory is that the planet's nice and green right up until the Lavos attack.
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Ok, Kyronea, so the planet can't recover from Lavos. Which makes him not just a parasite, but a deadly one.
With the way his species currently lives and what evidence we see from the games, quite yes.
However, I'm not sure how this can realy mesh with the idea that the planet and Lavos can co-exist--which you seem to propose in the "Theories and Observations on Lavos" thread. After all, it's not just the 1999 attack that did the planet in--it's the constant leeching of the planet's energy by Lavos that sealed the deal. Lavos and the planet exist on roughly the same scale on terms of energy needs/abilities, it seems--as evidenced, for example, by the dueling cities in Cross. Thus, it seems to me inevitable that a planet will be destroyed by Lavos.
I am fully aware of this. I proposed that with the idea in mind that a Lavoid would be living harmoniously with the Planet, in a symbiotic rather than parasitical relationship, which I still believe is possible. Lavos probably never would, but that does not mean other Lavoids can't. They are sentient species after all, and if there is a way for them to coexist with other species, then we ought to find it. The only other option is genocide.
What I think I'm really trying to do here is expand the discussion in this thread--not just on the magnitude, but the nature of a Lavoid attack. Is it a one time thing, or is it continuous?
Note that the weakness of my energy-sucking theory is that the planet's nice and green right up until the Lavos attack.
It is a continous drain of energy while the Lavoid grows and monitors DNA of creatures over the course of the Planet's history. It is also a slow drain...I point out that the idea is not to kill the Planet, but to only take what the Lavoid needs until it has gained the DNA and integrated it into itself, at which point it has no need for the Planet anymore and attacks. That attack does the main damage and the spawn subsequently drain all of the remaining energy. This is why the Planet can still appear green and undamaged(though it is doubtful we are getting a truly accurate picture with that 1999 A.D. map) up to the point of the full on attack.
Think of the drain of energy by the Lavoid as a sort of charging cycle, followed by a release of energy and then spawning, from which point the spawns drain all of the remaining energy. It's one long continous cycle, though specific events can be pinpointed as the true cause of the demise of the Planet. Up till the actual strike, the Planet, while no doubt injured and weakened, will definitely be able to survive, as evidenced by its survival after Lavos is destroyed. It is the actual Day of Lavos-esque attack that deals the fatal blow, followed by the drain of energy by the spawn.
Still, I say that a Planet cannot survive a Lavoid attack, because in a normal attack there would be no Heroes of Time to save the Planet. What made the Chronoverse Planet different in this aspect is unknown.
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Still, I say that a Planet cannot survive a Lavoid attack, because in a normal attack there would be no Heroes of Time to save the Planet. What made the Chronoverse Planet different in this aspect is unknown.
In Chrono Cross, the Frozen Flame splintering from Lavos' shell was possibly an accidental occurence (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Time_Devourer_%28Possibility_of%29.html). The mutation of prehistoric humans into modern, corrupted, magic-using humans could very well be a totally accidental and unwanted event for Lavos, and one that normally doesn't happen in other Lavoid life cycles.
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n Chrono Cross, the Frozen Flame splintering from Lavos' shell was possibly an accidental occurence (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Time_Devourer_%28Possibility_of%29.html) The mutation of prehistoric humans into modern, corrupted, magic-using humans could very well be a totally accidental and unwanted event for Lavos, and one that normally doesn't happen in other Lavoid life cycles.
Possibly, though we must take into account that there was a sentient species already present upon the Chrono Planet when Lavos fell...but then Lavos fell directly upon their central base of operations, almost as if he intentionally wiped them out.
I'm going to have to agree with you...a sentient species with the understanding and capability of humans would be a disaster for any Lavoid, at least if it is to prevent time traveling used to stop it from destroying a Planet, or use some other method to stop a Lavoid. This was why, after all, Lavos attacked in 1999 when he did, in order to destroy the last remaining threat. He could not stop the Heroes of Time, but he could stop those trapped in the normal flow of time from stopping him.
Still, one has to wonder where a Lavoid would get their new DNA from if they could not harvest it from a sentient species...but then it is also possible that Lavos simply took advantage of the unfortunate situation and made the best of it with his own DNA gathering...for all we know DNA gathering may actually be far more limited in a normal Lavoid life cycle.
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There were actually two sentient species on the Chrono planet when Lavos fell. Early Humans weren't as evolved as later ones, but they're definately not dumb beasts.
I thought Lavoids took DNA from all the species on the planet, and recombined it into the most effective configuration? So without sentient species, they'd do the same thing.
Lavos's greatest strength, however, is really (this will sound weird) in hits subtlty. Really. There were a LOT of powers on the planet that could've done it in, at least if you go by gameplay mechanics--just throw together a few of the later bosses. Presumably, the highly-technically capable world of 1999 probably could've gotten group together to fight it, if it'd seen it coming. Sure, he has the power to destroy the world, but there's no evidence he can launch that sort of attack more than once every, say, 14,000 years. So he has to remain very low key, and does, so no one besides the Planet knows he's there. In a way, it comes down to a battle of wits between him and the planet. Maybe other planets aren't so smart.
Here's another insane theory I just thought of. It's been speculated that, even adjusting for RPG scaling, the world of Chrono is incredibly small. Perhaps Chrono's world has high density and tiny circumfrence. If this is so, perhaps Lavoids are evolved to be less noicable parasite on larger planets--but on one of the Chrono Planet's scale, it can't help but be a destroyer. Hmmm...
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There were actually two sentient species on the Chrono planet when Lavos fell. Early Humans weren't as evolved as later ones, but they're definately not dumb beasts.
True, true...I meant in the sense of a species being capable of stopping Lavos if necessary. Early humans, while sentient, were not exactly capable of doing anything to stop Lavos. They could barely fight the Reptites effectively.
I thought Lavoids took DNA from all the species on the planet, and recombined it into the most effective configuration? So without sentient species, they'd do the same thing.
Aye, also true. Solves that little tiny problem, then.
Lavos's greatest strength, however, is really (this will sound weird) in hits subtlty. Really. There were a LOT of powers on the planet that could've done it in, at least if you go by gameplay mechanics--just throw together a few of the later bosses
And I wouldn't go by game mechanics on this one....besides, as I recall most of those later bosses served him in one fashion or another.
Presumably, the highly-technically capable world of 1999 probably could've gotten group together to fight it, if it'd seen it coming.
He would. Remember, he lives in a Pocket Dimension and experiences a separate flow of time from the normal flow. As such he can monitor the flow of time and determine the proper time to strike.
Sure, he has the power to destroy the world, but there's no evidence he can launch that sort of attack more than once every, say, 14,000 years
There's no evidence that he can't, either...his power is not truly quantified in this manner.
So he has to remain very low key, and does, so no one besides the Planet knows he's there.
Untrue. The Kingdom of Zeal found him quite easily, remember. Presumeably those in 1999 were close technologically to achieving that which Zeal did magically: identifying he was there. Only, unlike Zeal, they would not be foolish enough to try and utilize him as a power source and would probably attack instead, which is why he attacked when he did.
In a way, it comes down to a battle of wits between him and the planet. Maybe other planets aren't so smart.
Now that's something I'll agree with entirely.
Here's another insane theory I just thought of. It's been speculated that, even adjusting for RPG scaling, the world of Chrono is incredibly small. Perhaps Chrono's world has high density and tiny circumfrence. If this is so, perhaps Lavoids are evolved to be less noicable parasite on larger planets--but on one of the Chrono Planet's scale, it can't help but be a destroyer. Hmmm...
Problem is, we have no idea if the Chrono Planet truly is this, or if RPG scaling was ignored. Remember, in most other Japanese RPGs the world is frightfully unpopulated...worlds with much larger world maps such as Final Fantasy VII only have a few towns scattered across whole continents. One must simply ignore this and presume that in the reality of the situation the world is the size of our own--as there is no true evidence in the actual game to say otherwise apart from the scaling--and that there are many more people than we see. I attempted to theorize something close to this---though I was stating that Zenan, Choras, and Medina were part of a large island chain rather than whole continents--but upon closer examination of the game evidence I realized that was completely and totally wrong.
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Untrue. The Kingdom of Zeal found him quite easily, remember. Presumeably those in 1999 were close technologically to achieving that which Zeal did magically: identifying he was there. Only, unlike Zeal, they would not be foolish enough to try and utilize him as a power source and would probably attack instead, which is why he attacked when he did.
Zeal found Lavos probably with the help of the Flame (subtle evidence, helped along with the fact that the Flame has been existing, and no doubt about it being in the Mammon Machine), and the help of the Gurus. Heck, when we arrive in Zeal, it seems like they only recently found the true source of his energy, and decided to bring the Mammon Machine closer to drain more power.
As for 199AD, when did it ever state that they were becoming technologically advanced to Zeal as it was in magic? Even then, nobody knew about Lavos. They just has either Land monitors, or satellites that picked up Lavos' movement at the very end. We know from CC that there was an Lithosphere report that recorded the attack on the Day of Lavos. Other than that, even Chronopolis can't prove that Lavos ever truely existed besides the fact that other time lines show that he lived. The whole fact that Chronopolis exists means that Lavos was destroyed, but to them it doesn't matter if there was a different time line after 1999AD. To confirm their speculations, Lavos has to exist now.
And as for attacking Lavos, that would be the most foolish thing of all. Zeal believed that they could subdue Lavos and use it's energy, not realizing that it was still finite. However, it kind of came true as Lavos didn't oppose the Queen, or kill her, as he killed Crono.
Heck, maybe the Queen intended for Zeal to be destroyed, so Lavos would appear and she could be with him.
So yeah, even if the humans had known about Lavos, theres not much they could have done. Best that they'd just go into outer space and come back later, or colonize another planet if they had that capability.
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Even then, nobody knew about Lavos.
The Arris Director knew.
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Zeal found Lavos probably with the help of the Flame (subtle evidence, helped along with the fact that the Flame has been existing, and no doubt about it being in the Mammon Machine), and the help of the Gurus. Heck, when we arrive in Zeal, it seems like they only recently found the true source of his energy, and decided to bring the Mammon Machine closer to drain more power.
Aye, within the last ten or so years. I'm not saying it was EASY easy, but they found Lavos more easily than anyone else could have.
As for 199AD, when did it ever state that they were becoming technologically advanced to Zeal as it was in magic? Even then, nobody knew about Lavos. They just has either Land monitors, or satellites that picked up Lavos' movement at the very end. We know from CC that there was an Lithosphere report that recorded the attack on the Day of Lavos. Other than that, even Chronopolis can't prove that Lavos ever truely existed besides the fact that other time lines show that he lived. The whole fact that Chronopolis exists means that Lavos was destroyed, but to them it doesn't matter if there was a different time line after 1999AD. To confirm their speculations, Lavos has to exist now.
Well, you're right...it never stated anywhere that 1999 A.D. was as close technologically as Zeal was magically. I am extrapolating from the fact that Lavos decided to attack in 1999 and from what we see of the technology. We know Lavos perceived Zeal as a threat and took it down, so any society that was attacked by Lavos would have to be at a similiar power level technologically as Zeal was magically.
As for knowing about Lavos? The Arris Directer knew.
And as for attacking Lavos, that would be the most foolish thing of all.
Oh? Crono and the gang did just that, and as I recall, they won.
Zeal believed that they could subdue Lavos and use it's energy, not realizing that it was still finite.
They probably didn't fully understand what Lavos was when they first discovered it...just that Lavos was an incredible potential source of power. They started tapping into it and discovered more as they built the Ocean Palace. We don't know the full extent of their knowledge, unfortunately...while Belthesar knew quite a bit, he had also been in the future for some time and might have gained his knowledge from studying Lavos in that time period.
However, it kind of came true as Lavos didn't oppose the Queen, or kill her, as he killed Crono.
No, he used the Queen for his own purposes. She perceived herself as sort of a puppet or concubine, as evidenced by the way she referred to herself in the Black Omen in the original Japanese script. Or at least that's what KWhazit said...I can't read Japanese worth anything.
Heck, maybe the Queen intended for Zeal to be destroyed, so Lavos would appear and she could be with him.
Doubtful at best...Queen Zeal is not a fool and obviously was a good person before Lavos corrupted her. It is far more likely that she just didn't give a damn when Zeal was destroyed...Lavos took advantage of her to set up a way of empowering himself. We know the Black Omen gives him more power somehow...perhaps to focus it. We also know there was no Omen in the original Lavos timeline.
So I propose that the Queen was used more in the Keystone timeline than in the Lavos timeline so Lavos could set up a way of empowering himself even more to defend himself against the Heroes of Time. We know he is not stupid, and that he would notice they were bounding about through time seeking his demise. As such he would set up a way to defend himself or otherwise empower himself further. I suggest that way is the Black Omen, because otherwise the Omen just doesn't make much sense. It's not as if Lavos needed the Omen to destroy the world, since he was easily capable of doing so before then.
So yeah, even if the humans had known about Lavos, theres not much they could have done. Best that they'd just go into outer space and come back later, or colonize another planet if they had that capability.
We don't know what kind of military resources were at their fingertips, but sadly I have to agree with you...we know our own world would have no chance against Lavos at this time, given what we know of him. The attack is also super fast, occurring over just a few minutes, so we'd have no time to mount a defense.
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So I propose that the Queen was used more in the Keystone timeline than in the Lavos timeline so Lavos could set up a way of empowering himself even more to defend himself against the Heroes of Time. We know he is not stupid, and that he would notice they were bounding about through time seeking his demise. As such he would set up a way to defend himself or otherwise empower himself further. I suggest that way is the Black Omen, because otherwise the Omen just doesn't make much sense. It's not as if Lavos needed the Omen to destroy the world, since he was easily capable of doing so before then.
While it's kind of off-topic, I can't help but post a link to DBoruta's theory about the Ocean Palace incident (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Ocean_Palace_Incident_%28Flame_Theory%29.html). According to that theory, Lavos would have manipulated Queen Zeal into bringing the Mammon Machine close to him so that he could claim back the Frozen Flame.
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While it's kind of off-topic, I can't help but post a link to DBoruta's theory about the Ocean Palace incident (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Ocean_Palace_Incident_%28Flame_Theory%29.html). According to that theory, Lavos would have manipulated Queen Zeal into bringing the Mammon Machine close to him so that he could claim back the Frozen Flame.
Ah, yes, that theory...well, while we have no real evidence the Frozen Flame was actually the central core of the Mammon Machine(apart from Radical Dreamers which was rendered non-canon, though the fact that it does occur in an alternate universe suggests that it is possible--and potentially likely, given the simularities between the universes--that the Frozen Flame was thus the core of the Keystone Mammon Machine) it's certainly possible. In fact, it could work together with what I suggest, since having the Frozen Flame would easily help with empowering Lavos in some fashion.
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Even then, nobody knew about Lavos.
As for knowing about Lavos? The Arris Directer knew.
The Arris Director knew.
Director: ......
Lavos......
I seriously doubt the Director knew about Lavos, what the being actually is, what it did to Zeal, the fact that it landed.
The Director saw Lavos on the screen, so from all facts known about the word and how it was handed down, most likely he saw that it was big, and shot fire. So he could easily, like Ayla, call it Lavos aka "Big Fire". There is no evidence to suggest that they understand or know what a Lavos is. Heck, only in 2300AD does it seem that anyone knew what Lavos was.
[Monitor]
2300 A.D.
Lithosphere Investigation Report
~
~
- Report no. 27 -
~
[Unknown Life Force,
Parasitic to the Planet]
Geologic Stratum Result - 65,000,000 B.C.
Code - '"Lavos"'
Not only is this in CC, but the report was made in 2300AD, and is the 27th report.
So a computer must have been monitoring it since 1999AD I guess :/ Since the Day of Lavos.
While it's kind of off-topic, I can't help but post a link to DBoruta's theory about the Ocean Palace incident (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Ocean_Palace_Incident_%28Flame_Theory%29.html). According to that theory, Lavos would have manipulated Queen Zeal into bringing the Mammon Machine close to him so that he could claim back the Frozen Flame.
Ah, yes, that theory...well, while we have no real evidence the Frozen Flame was actually the central core of the Mammon Machine(apart from Radical Dreamers which was rendered non-canon, though the fact that it does occur in an alternate universe suggests that it is possible--and potentially likely, given the simularities between the universes--that the Frozen Flame was thus the core of the Keystone Mammon Machine) it's certainly possible. In fact, it could work together with what I suggest, since having the Frozen Flame would easily help with empowering Lavos in some fashion.
I brought this up earlier in a post 2 years ago. We can just connect the dots with RD and CC, and it all fits together. Schala is pretty much an arbiter, able to control the Mammon Machine. The Mammon Machine has the flame in it. The Mammon Machine is brought closer to Lavos, who awakens in it's presence for any reason (Maybe it wants to take it back and become powerful or something?). This both happened in CT and RD (just without the flame being mentioned in CT) and is a motif in CC with the flame being the medium to evolve Lavos with an arbiter.
CT also supports a premature version of the Flame, with Belthasar stating that in 3,000,000BC, humans changed forever when they made contact with a red shard (the flame). So we can assume that back in 1996, the Flame concept wasn't fully designed, and they fully integrated it in CC and kind of added the background of it in RD.
Interesting concept :O
Oh and to Kyronea, just to go back to another point:
Whilst I was digging through the script in CT, the Arris Dome Director tells people to head off to the "ShelterDomes". So it's plausible that many more than 100 people survived, probably a lot, but not like more than 1% of the population. Weird that we don't see any on the 2300AD map. Guess they're inaccessible, like how we assume that CT has more cities that we just don't see.
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Director: ......
Lavos......
I seriously doubt the Director knew about Lavos, what the being actually is, what it did to Zeal, the fact that it landed.
The Director saw Lavos on the screen, so from all facts known about the word and how it was handed down, most likely he saw that it was big, and shot fire. So he could easily, like Ayla, call it Lavos aka "Big Fire". There is no evidence to suggest that they understand or know what a Lavos is. Heck, only in 2300AD does it seem that anyone knew what Lavos was.
[Monitor]
2300 A.D.
Lithosphere Investigation Report
~
~
- Report no. 27 -
~
[Unknown Life Force,
Parasitic to the Planet]
Geologic Stratum Result - 65,000,000 B.C.
Code - '"Lavos"'
Not only is this in CC, but the report was made in 2300AD, and is the 27th report.
So a computer must have been monitoring it since 1999AD I guess :/ Since the Day of Lavos.
Quite possibly. I do have a theory as to why Lavos might be known about, though:
We know that in the Lavos timeline--obviously--Magus was slain by Lavos. As such, Medina would be in the shape we first saw it in. Would it not be too surprising if there was some sort of cult devoted to the worship of Lavos as some mystical being? As such, would there not be legends at least somewhat known to educated people? Thusly, I say that he merely suspected this was the Lavos of that cult, which would, amusingly enough, be worshipping the real Lavos. No proof for this of course other than what we know of Medina in the Lavos timeline, but I like to think it would add a bit of culture, however dark, to the Mystics.
I brought this up earlier in a post 2 years ago. We can just connect the dots with RD and CC, and it all fits together. Schala is pretty much an arbiter, able to control the Mammon Machine. The Mammon Machine has the flame in it. The Mammon Machine is brought closer to Lavos, who awakens in it's presence for any reason (Maybe it wants to take it back and become powerful or something?). This both happened in CT and RD (just without the flame being mentioned in CT) and is a motif in CC with the flame being the medium to evolve Lavos with an arbiter.
CT also supports a premature version of the Flame, with Belthasar stating that in 3,000,000BC, humans changed forever when they made contact with a red shard (the flame). So we can assume that back in 1996, the Flame concept wasn't fully designed, and they fully integrated it in CC and kind of added the background of it in RD.
Interesting concept :O
Indeed, and though we may quibble over specific details, such as why Lavos awoke during the Ocena Palace incident, the general theory is sound.
Oh and to Kyronea, just to go back to another point:
Whilst I was digging through the script in CT, the Arris Dome Director tells people to head off to the "ShelterDomes". So it's plausible that many more than 100 people survived, probably a lot, but not like more than 1% of the population. Weird that we don't see any on the 2300AD map. Guess they're inaccessible, like how we assume that CT has more cities that we just don't see.
I'm going to take a brief moment and check that line in the retranslation, but from what I remember of that scene I think he was talking about sheltered areas in Arris Dome itself, since it seemed he was just talking to the people of Arris Dome. Given, agian, how quick the attack occurred, the odds of many, many more people surviving than I suggested is unlikely. What "ShelterDomes" probably means in reality is a sheltered part of the dome designed to withstand attacks on, say, a nuclear level, which would be close to adequate to protect from Lavos.
Ah, here we go, some support:
Director: All hands, evacuate to the shelter dome.....
See how it says "All hands"? That measns all of the crew/everyone in Arris Dome. While it was tossed into one word in the North American translation...I have no idea. Most of the other endings were translated poorly anyway.
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We know that in the Lavos timeline--obviously--Magus was slain by Lavos. As such, Medina would be in the shape we first saw it in. Would it not be too surprising if there was some sort of cult devoted to the worship of Lavos as some mystical being? As such, would there not be legends at least somewhat known to educated people? Thusly, I say that he merely suspected this was the Lavos of that cult, which would, amusingly enough, be worshipping the real Lavos. No proof for this of course other than what we know of Medina in the Lavos timeline, but I like to think it would add a bit of culture, however dark, to the Mystics.
That makes more sense than none, and sounds pretty good.
By the way, Magus just dissapeared to them. They thought that he abandoned them, and wondered why he didn't summon Lavos :/
I'm going to take a brief moment and check that line in the retranslation, but from what I remember of that scene I think he was talking about sheltered areas in Arris Dome itself, since it seemed he was just talking to the people of Arris Dome. Given, agian, how quick the attack occurred, the odds of many, many more people surviving than I suggested is unlikely. What "ShelterDomes" probably means in reality is a sheltered part of the dome designed to withstand attacks on, say, a nuclear level, which would be close to adequate to protect from Lavos.
Ah, here we go, some support:
Director: All hands, evacuate to the shelter dome.....
See how it says "All hands"? That measns all of the crew/everyone in Arris Dome. While it was tossed into one word in the North American translation...I have no idea. Most of the other endings were translated poorly anyway.
Meh, I mean the point still holds. They'd probably sound some sort of alarm all over the world for people to get down into the sheltered parts, especially if people saw fire raining from the sky. They'd probably have some time to get down there before the dome covering gave way, at any rate. And by the looks of most of the domes that are still functioning, there must have been heavy protection, especially on the factories.
I'm going to take a brief moment and check that line in the retranslation, but from what I remember of that scene I think he was talking about sheltered areas in Arris Dome itself, since it seemed he was just talking to the people of Arris Dome. Given, agian, how quick the attack occurred, the odds of many, many more people surviving than I suggested is unlikely. What "ShelterDomes" probably means in reality is a sheltered part of the dome designed to withstand attacks on, say, a nuclear level, which would be close to adequate to protect from Lavos.
Ah, here we go, some support:
Director: All hands, evacuate to the shelter dome.....
See how it says "All hands"? That measns all of the crew/everyone in Arris Dome. While it was tossed into one word in the North American translation...I have no idea. Most of the other endings were translated poorly anyway.
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That makes more sense than none, and sounds pretty good.
Finally, we can actually agree on something.
By the way, Magus just dissapeared to them. They thought that he abandoned them, and wondered why he didn't summon Lavos :/
They did still worship him, though, and if anything, abandonment issues might lead to more of a Lavos-based cult than there would be otherwise.
Meh, I mean the point still holds. They'd probably sound some sort of alarm all over the world for people to get down into the sheltered parts, especially if people saw fire raining from the sky. They'd probably have some time to get down there before the dome covering gave way, at any rate. And by the looks of most of the domes that are still functioning, there must have been heavy protection, especially on the factories.
Oh, I don't doubt there were alarms of some sort for shelter in many parts of the world. Given the domes it's quite possible there was a cold war of sorts going on between Guardia, Porre, and Medina--and possibly Choras, which given how hard it was hit by Lavos makes some sense--I would certainly see some sort of alarm calling for shelter.
But you're not realizing how huge a world is, or how many people can inhabit it with technology at the state it was at. We're talking millions upon millions of people. Can you imagine trying to evacuate the sum total of the United States population into sheltered areas all over the world? And remember, you're talking a time span of a few minutes for the world to go from pristine and green to 2300 A.D. style ruined.
They definitely built many of the domes quite well, though I still say the domes and factories that survived were run by the military, because the military would be the ones to harden things the most. Given what was left--such as the R-Y series factory, which builds robots for some form of military purpose, given how strong they are--it's the only sensible conclusion, really. One has to wonder why none of the huge city-domes survived, if at least partially, if they were ALL built as well as, say, Arris Dome. Even Arris Dome looks like it was partially destroyed.
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The Mystics in 1000AD in the Lavos timeline certainly knew about Lavos--there was a cult dedicated to Magus that told the Heroes that Magus almost summoned forth/made (I don't remember which) a giant monster called "Lavos" to destroy the Humans. That's why you have to defeat Magus in the first place. (I assume Magus told the Mystics that Lavos was a secret weapon to justify the amount of time and resources necessary for summoinng him.
Kyronea: You actually made some really good point as to why the area explored in CT had to be small. And of course it's true that you're exploring an entire world, as all the refutations of your island chain theory stated--but, unless I recall incorrectly (I can't find that thread) none of them claimed that the area is CT had to be large, just that it wasn't an island chain.
Besides, there IS in-game evidence pointing to the Chrono planet being small. Look at the height and weights given in CC, especially for females, and tell me, that, under Earth-normal gravity, a 5'7" 104lb girl (Janice) would be considered "plump," or that a 5'9" 97lb woman (Luccia) would be considered "alive." Clearly, they're living on a tiny planet with very small gravity. :wink:
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I brought this up earlier in a post 2 years ago. We can just connect the dots with RD and CC, and it all fits together. Schala is pretty much an arbiter, able to control the Mammon Machine. The Mammon Machine has the flame in it. The Mammon Machine is brought closer to Lavos, who awakens in it's presence for any reason (Maybe it wants to take it back and become powerful or something?). This both happened in CT and RD (just without the flame being mentioned in CT) and is a motif in CC with the flame being the medium to evolve Lavos with an arbiter.
CT also supports a premature version of the Flame, with Belthasar stating that in 3,000,000BC, humans changed forever when they made contact with a red shard (the flame). So we can assume that back in 1996, the Flame concept wasn't fully designed, and they fully integrated it in CC and kind of added the background of it in RD.
Interesting concept :O
Perhaps Lavos wanted the flame back to stop humans from having magical powers if it was indeed the source. Because in the next time period we have access to after this event the only human with access to magic is Magus.
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really missed out on thi sthread.... and dont have the time to read it all at once.. so please pardon me if somethings already been said
As far as the planet recovering. Your looking at several hundred million years to put the planet back int oa state ready to support life again another several hundred years of life for most of the life on teh planet to be able to reevolve back into its current state. and while half a billion years may not seem like much when your talking planetary scale. our own sun is expected to have a remaining life of several hundred million years.. at most 1 or two billion. The star that planet orbits is most likely the same... you really think it wants to spend a quarter of its remaining life turning itself back into what it was? and this isnt taking into account that the core would cool to far to be able to create an em field around the planet long before the sun went out. no em field no life. no sun no life.
Sure the planet could recover but who the hell would want to wait that long.. on top of that. whos to say that one of the baby lavoids would not remain behind and burrow down ready to do it all over again.?
And remember, you're talking a time span of a few minutes for the world to go from pristine and green to 2300 A.D. style ruined.
I highly doubt the one atack ruined everything.. the one attack just set everything up for destruction. Killed power generation facilities maybe knocked out water pumps.. but it was the assualts after the initial bombardment that did it. the waves of monsters, lavoids, and lavos himself destroying civilization as they knew it. If had just been the one assault they could have rebuilt in a number of a few years. but this was not the case.
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You can't compare our world to the chrono world to state that their world would eventually get better. Yes it got better after Lavos first landed but that was pretty much the exact same as a meteor strike. When Lavos erupted in 1999 it had drained the life energy of the planet over the course of 65+ million years. Something our world has never had to experience.
However I have to agree with the assumption that the chrono planet was smarter then average planets.
First lets ask, why would the planet wait until it was almost dead before using time portals to try and save itself? It clearly has the ability to see into the future(and other versions of the future, dinopolis for example) so it should known as soon as Lavos had arrived that this thing was going to end up killing it. The only reason I can think of was that it was unable to create the gates while Lavos was inside of it exerting some form of control or restraint on what the planet was capable of doing.
Now with a Lavoid preventing a planet from recruiting powerful warriors from across the planets history who are aware of the threat a lavoid presents(Lavos' best defense was remaining completely unknown tot he outside world until it was too late) most planets would probably try to futilly fight back against it. Wasting even more of its energy so that when the DoLE(day of lavos event) occurred normal planets would probably lack the energy to create time gates and most likely just go into a coma from the attack while the spawn finish it off.
The chorno planet however must have realized this and instead of actively fighting Lavos it tried to conserve as much of its energy as possible so that when the DoLE occurred it was in a position to mount a retroactive defense by opening the gates for Crono and Co. to defeat Lavos.
If most planets did this then the lavoid species would not last long. However I do believe that the planet was going to die off completely once the spawn were done finishing it off.
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Imm not so sure... a species, even lavos, primary function is reprodution and continuation of the species.. In teh case of chrono earth I think that while if one of teh spawn burrowed into the earth it would not survive a second assault on itself, it would eventually recover. matter is a form of coalesced energy and since energy can neither be created or destroyed.. and lavos was sure to have waste by product onc ehe and his spawn all left((or in lavos case most likely died)) and every thing rotted and erroded((and weve already seen that their are micro organisms otherwise nothing would rot)) the micro organisms would start everything all over slowly re changing the atmosphere and life would once again spread.. not to mention the fact that their are seeds that can lay dormant for centuries in the right conditions. Not even lavos would possibly be able to completly drain teh life force from teh planet.