TTI/TB/TE Reformation Idea Collection

[Thought]

Sorry I am so late coming to this thread. Allow me to first address TTI as has been discussed, then TE as has been discussed, then allow me to propose a very simplistic solution.

Time Traveler Immunity

Problem with a subjective conception of TTI (that is, the form being proposed in this thread), as opposed to an objective conception of TTI (the one previously accepted by the Compendium) is that there is minimal proof.

We see old-TTI work in CT for the most part, but never once (with the possible exception of Marle) do we see new-TTI active in CT. The Marle Paradox is persistent enough to indicate that old-TTI is incorrect, but the new-TTI really only seems to serve that single point. Old-TTI had a 99% success rate, as it were, the new-TTI has a 1% success rate. Well, to be fair, new-TTI has a higher rate than that, but specifically we only see a new-TTI-only instance of any TTI once. It is a good idea, but the lack of evidence seems to make it more of a foot note to old-TTI than a replacement.

Time Error

This is not regarding TTI or TB, but Time Error (TE).

In keeping with being as simple as possible, I would propose that the Time Error theory be retired.

Nope, sorry. The only way for TE to be retired is if we the players retire. TE is essentially our perspective of the game (put into a fancy language). But even if we discount the metagame aspect of the player's perspective, there is the problem of events happening.

Crono travels from 1000 AD to 600 AD. Without Time Error, he is predestined to do everything he does in 600 AD. Why? Because chronologically speaking, 600 AD is before 1000 AD so Crono did whatever he does in 600 AD before he could have left 1000 AD. This messes up the concept of the entire game, because actions taken in the past, being the past, will always have occurred before any time point in the future. If Crono arrives in 600 AD once, he must have always arrived in 600 AD, because the past is past.

Time Error is what allows us to say that Crono left 1000 AD in the past, arrives at 600 AD in the present, and will be sent to 65,000,000 BC in the future. Without it, the future is the future and the past is the past.

Unless my High school math has failed me, I thought that parallel was like // not like |/...?

Unfortunately, your high school math failed you.

All this discussion of parallel and perpendicular assumes euclidean geometry. That is an unnecessary and potentially false assumption. It is quite possible for two lines to be parallel AND perpendicular to each other in non-euclidean geometry. Heck, it’s possible if one is just working with higher dimensions. Draw two parallel lines on a paper then fold it a few times so that the lines cross each other. In 2 dimensions, the lines are both parallel and perpendicular because 2-d space can't perceive the 3-d bends.

However, we must remember that calling Time Error parallel or perpendicular to regular time is just a figure of speech used to illustrate 5th dimensional concepts to our 3 dimensional minds. The two might be separated by a spissitudinal distance and angle which we cannot properly perceive.

Simple Solutions

No, I'm not talking about the carpet spray. The majority of problems with TTI and TB come from a few very small mistakes that were made in the original conception of the theories. These mistakes (which are quite understandable, giving that even in this thread people keep making them) are easily addressed. But first, allow me to familiarize you with a few concepts I will need to use.

Theme is Supreme: The concept that the artistic intents of the creators inherently supersedes all else; theories that conform to the theme are inherently superior to theories that do not conform to the theme.

Brittle Time: A model of time that supposes time is a fragile thing likely to change.

Elastic Time: A model of time that supposes time is a resilient thing unlikely to change.

Time Index: A concept supposing that when an individual travels through time, changes to the individual and that individuals timeline can only be made in the "present."

Time Reintegration: A concept that accounts for the effects on the timeline when a time traveler stops traveling in time.

Now allow me to give a special thanks to BROJ for helping me with these theories as they have been in development over the last year (yeah, I'm slow).

Anywho, allow me to discuss these concepts in order so that you can better understand where the mistakes were made and how to fix them. The solutions are simple, but I am long-winded. I am sorry.

Theme is Supreme

I bring this up first because the entire problem surrounding TTI and TB is that when those theories were crafted, theme was not supreme. It was barely considered. However, when we make themes supreme, theories fall into place.

When judging between divergent theories and interpretations of evidence, those theories and proofs which best conform to the themes of the game are those that ought to be more readily accepted. Conversely, those theories and proofs that do not conform to an established theme of the game require more evidence before they ought be accepted.

The reason for my implementation of this concept is simple.  The Chrono series is foremost a set of stories, not treaties on an alternate universe. Because of this, any behavior or event that it outside the realm of known science should first conform to the themes of the story before conforming to the proposed laws of science as they apply to the real world. Which is to say, gravity is gravity. Time travel ain't time travel, though (that is, real world concepts of time travel may or may not apply to the Chronoverse).

Similarly, any specific deviations or events that contradict the realm of known science should, again, first conform to the themes of the story and secondly to any attempts to re-integrate those events to real-world conditions. (which is to say, direct contradiction to real world physics are acceptable insofar as they confirm first to theme and then reasonable suppositions connecting them to the real world are made).

What, then, are the Themes of Chrono Trigger and ChronoCross?

1) The future is not set in stone but intentional effort is required to produce change.
We see this in Crono & Co's travels throughout time. If the future were an ossified object, then Crono could have enacted no changes to the timeline. The future was ruined and would have stayed ruined. However, the future can be changed, yet in the same way that change is not fated to be. Crono had to actually save the world; it didn't become saved the moment he set his foot on the path that would eventually lead there. (this is inherently related to, but is larger than, Flow Principle)

2) Dreams make change possible.
This is not “dreams” as in what happens when you are asleep, but what might also be termed “desires” or “goals.” We see this theme in the dream species, in Crono and Co dreaming of a world without Lavos, the dreams of the Entity, Radical Dreamers, etc.

So, then, how did TTI and TB not take Theme into account and how do Themes solve the problems?

First, take a look at the The Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel article if you haven't already. While is supposes Flow Principle, it doesn't take it far enough, and the Discarded Timelines Principle is taken too far; they are out of balance with the themes of the game.

I will quote the relevant materials:

Light cone - A light cone is a concept in four dimensional spacetime relating the temporal evolution of a flash of light. This can be visualized in 3-space if the two horizontal axes are chosen to be spatial dimensions, while the vertical axis is time. The light cone is constructed as follows. Taking as event p a flash of light (light pulse) at time t0, all events that can be reached by this pulse from p form the future light cone of p, whilst those events that can send a light pulse to p form the past light cone of p. The light cone in Chrono series discussion is used to describe the mere presence of a time traveler in the past. Even if a time traveler want back in time and immediately returned, the light cone of his presence would still change history, even if only on a subatomic level. However, it would only change history as far as a photon of light can travel in a given period of time.

The Discarded Timelines Principle, in summary, states that whenever a timeline is altered by a time traveler, a new timeline is created as a result of these changes. The original timeline from that point onward is sent into the Darkness Beyond Time, a realm of frozen non-existense containing all discarded timelines. The creation of a new timeline does not imply that the substance of the universe is sent to the DBT and recreated out of nothingness. The new timeline represents the new state of the future light cone of the time traveller which is disturbed by his physical presence. This new state is affected by gravity and the other physical forces, even if only exerted on a subatomic level by the time traveler's mere presence in the past. The original state of the universe is preserved as information in the DBT. Nothing is created from thin air.

In summary, when Crono steps back to 600 A.D., his changes relegate the future beyond 600 A.D. to the Darkness Beyond Time and expunges the old timeline, as a new one is created with his changes intact...

Imagine, if you will, Crono travels from 1000 AD to 600 AD. He does absolutely nothing there, he just stands at the exit of the portal. According to this, he has changed the timeline. The old is gone and the new has come. What has he done? Absolutely nothing, but here mere presence (as IDed by the Light Cone information) causes a change. This is in direct contradiction to Theme is Supreme (and in non-direct contradiction to Flow Principle). The timeline is changed not through direct action, but by indirect presence.

And this is what I call...

Brittle Time

From the above you might see why I call it brittle time. According to the light cone and DTP information, the structure of time is incredible fragile. The slightest touch (via a time traveler) is enough to shatter the timeline from that point onwards. The remains get brushed into the DBT and a new timeline is created from that point onwards.

Except then the time traveler stays there for a pico second more. Time shatters, gets swept away, and a new timeline established.

If a time traveler exists in the past for a mere second, nearly an infinite number of timelines have shattered and been replaced. This is part of what makes TB fundamentally so necessary. There are infinite numbers of duplicates that need to be dealt with.

But let’s see what happens if we suppose that Theme is Supreme and that time is something a little more resilient. It doesn't change until an individual intentionally acts upon it. Let's call this...

Elastic Time

Crono travels from 1000 AD to 600 AD and spends an hour there. Nothing is sent to the DBT, the timeline remains as it is because it is resilient. It might bend a little, but it doesn't break.

The obvious objection to this is that, if Crono now returns to 1000 AD, he will be in a timeline in which he appeared in 600AD for an hour. Clearly the timeline is different!

Sort of.

Imagine, if you will, a clump of clay. Roll it into a long snake. This represents time, so lay it ou in a line. Take one end of the snake and whack it with itself near the middle. Now, lay it out in a line again. Look at where the "timeline" hit itself. There is a dent. But you might notice something amazing. Despite one part of the object interacting with another part of the object, the entirely of the object is still the same. The substance of the timeline (aka, clay) remains the same, but the shape of the timeline has slightly changed.

Now imagine, if you will, you did the same thing, but that it is with rubber, not clay. A force is applied, the object deforms to accommodate that force, but as soon as the force is removed the object reverts back to its previous state.

Ah, but we do see that time can change, yes? So allow me to further expand these ideas.

With the clay, imagine there was a lot more force behind the whack. So much, in fact, that it cut through the clay, separating one part from the other. While it might be difficult to imagine doing that yourself, you should be able to imagine that it is possible.

With the rubber, again imagine a force so intense that it breaks the bonds and the rubber splits. Difficult to produce, but possible.

Elastic Time supposes that there are two forms of actions an individual can have on a timeline: a minor disturbance (the first two examples with the clay and rubber) and a major distortion (the latter two examples with the clay and rubber).

The difference is the force applied. Too little force, and Time's inherent elasticity counteracts any permanant damage. Too much force and time's elasticity can't compensate and it breaks. In the former case, 1000 AD remains as it was. In the latter case, the timeline after the point of change is discarded and a new one is added.

Elastic time helps us resolve the problems of TTI and TB because there would generally be no repeats. Crono travels back to 600 AD and disturbs time. No duplicates are created because the timeline is still the same timeline. Which means, unless we have a major distortion, the issue of duplicates never comes into play.

To note, I should make it clear that I am not saying that when Crono disturbs time, when he leaves the timeline appears as if he was never present. Rather, I am saying that the further one gets away from that point of impact, the fewer effects there are, until it gets to the point where there is no change at all. The shape of the timeline might have been changed, but the substance is the same.

To use yet another analogy, imagine a body of water. A pebble is dropped in and it forms ripples. As the ripples get further away from the point of origin, they get smaller and smaller until they disappear. That is a minor disturbance. But imagine, instead, a force is applied and instead of a ripple, a wave forms. Rather than growing weaker the further one gets from the point of origin, the stronger it gets.

Minor disturbances cause ripples, but the timeline remains the same thing. Major distortions cause waves, requiring that the timeline be discarded after that point and a new one created.

I promised that this makes things simple. If you are still reading, you are probably wondering why.

This is because in CT there is only one example of a Major Distortion; everything else is a minor disturbance.

Characters in CC seem to assume that there are a limited number of discarded timelines, which is consistent with elastic time but in opposition to brittle time:

   But in saving our planet from
   the death Lavos was going to
   bring about, they also changed
   the course of history...

Miguel implies that Crono & Co only changed the course of history once, with the death of Lavos. One might wonder about all the other changes to history, then. Perhaps there is a difference between changing the course of history and merely changing history itself.

If every change to the timeline in CT resulted in the future being discarded, then ever future discarded would contain Lavos. The Lavos in the DBT is not the physical Lavos; it is the Lavos of the future that never was.
 

   At that very moment,
   this whole future time
   axis ceased to exist.
   Call it cause and effect...
   It is just a problem of
   possibilities, after all...
   In this world, there are
   no such things as
   absolutes or certainties.

Again, this implies that the cessation of that future time axis was unusual. If brittle time is correct as presented, then there should be a plethora of future times axes that ceased to exist.

   But the future that
   was supposed to have
   disappeared is about
   to be restored here...
   The future destruction
   of our planet is going
   to become a reality in
   this world once again...

Note, she says “future,” not “futures,” that were supposed to have disappeared, implying only one future timeline was discarded.

   A long time ago, we -- my friends
   and I, that is -- changed the future
   in order to save our planet from
   being devoured by Lavos, a monster
   from some unknown planet.
   
   We still feel proud of the role
   we played in saving our world,
   and in how we were so freely
   able to change the flow of time.

   But sometimes I think of the darker
   side of what we did...
   What has become of the future that
   was '"once"' supposed to have existed?
   Where did the '"time"' that now is no
   longer allowed to exist '"go?"'
   
   It is true that, thanks to our
   altering the flow of history,
   we were able to save so many
   lives and prevent so much sadness
   and suffering...
   But when you think of it, we also
   caused the deaths of so many that
   were meant to have come into
   existence in the time line we
   destroyed, and also caused new
   sadness and suffering further along
   in the new future we created...

It is curious that Lucca is only afraid of revenge coming from that one change to the timeline; the destruction of Lavos. Why would she not fear revenge for interfering in the Mystic War, the restoration of Fiona’s Forest, the defeat of the Reptites, providing hope to humans in 2300AD’s ruined future, their dealings with Zeal, etc?

It might be because only one set of individuals were sent to the DBT over the entire course of CT; those resulting from the major distortion of Lavos' defeat.

Allow me to list all the instance in CT that a force is applied to time. I will then discuss why the majority of these are minor disturbances rather than major distortions.

1. Marle travels back to 600 AD (telepod accident)
2. Chrono travels back to 600 AD (he follows her)
3. Lucca Travels back to 600 AD (she follows Crono with the Gatekey)
4. The three return to 1000 AD (having rescued Leene and saving Marle)
5. The three travel to 2300 AD (to escape Guardia guards)
6. The three plus Robo travel to the End of Time (attempting to return to 1000AD to find out about Lavos there)
7. Crono and Co return to 1000 AD (successfully return to 1000AD and discover Mystics attribute Lavos to Magus)
8. Crono & Co travel to 600 AD (to combat Magus; in the process obtain the hero medal and both parts of the masamune)
9. Crono & Co travel to 1000 AD (to talk with Melchior about the Masamune).
10. Crono & Co travel to 65000000BC (to obtain Dreamstone)
11. Crono & Co travel to 1000 AD (to reforge the masamune)
12. Crono & Co travel to 600 AD (to give the masamune to frog and defeat magus)
13. Crono & Co travel to 65000000 BC (sent by the distortion in Magus’ castle)
14. Crono & Co travel to 12,000 BC (to investigate the gate by Lavos’ impact crater)
15. Crono & Co travel to 65,000000 BC (expelled from Zeal by Schala and the Prophet)
16. Crono & Co travel to the end of time (to try to find an alternate way to get to 12,000BC)
17. Crono & Co travel to 2300 AD (to obtain the Epoch)
18. Crono & Co travel to 12,000 (to storm the ocean palace, where Crono dies)
19. Crono & Co travel to End of Time (to try to find out about restoring timelines; aka, restoring Crono)
20. Crono & Co travel to 1000 AD to get the clone
21. Crono & Co travel to 2300 AD (to save crono)
22. Crono & Co travel to 12,000BC (via time egg)
23. Crono & Co travel to 2300 AD (return from time egg trip)
24. Crono & Co travel to 2300 AD (from the End of Time where they ended up after the time egg scene and where they obtain the Moonstone)
25. Crono & Co travel to 65,000,000 (to place the moonstone in the Sun keep)
26. Crono & Co travel to 2300AD (and find the moonstone is gone)
27. Crono & Co travel to 1000 AD and find the moonstone; also buy jerky
28. Crono & Co travel to 600 AD to give jerky to the mayor’s ancestor
29. Crono & Co travel to 1000 AD and get the moonstone.
30. Crono & Co travel to 600 AD to save fiona’s forest
31. Crono & Co travel to 1000 AD to get Robo again.
32. Lucca travels to roughly 990 to save her mother
33. Lucca returns to 1000 AD
34. Crono & Co travel to 600 AD to talk to Toma and get his soda.
35. Crono & Co travel to 1000 AD to find out about Giant’s Claw
36. Crono & Co travel to 600 AD to get the rainbow shell
37. Crono & Co travel to 1000 AD to access the rainbow shell; King on trial (afterwards, visit’s Cyrus’s grave)
38. Crono & Co travel to 600 AD to find carpenter
39. Crono & Co travel to 1000 AD to get tools
40. Crono & Co travel to 600 AD to repair ruins and put Cyrus to rest
41. Crono & Co travel to 2300 AD to defeat Mother Brain.
42. Crono & Co travel to 12000 to storm the Black Omen and defeat Lavos.
43. Crono & Co travel to 1000 to celebrate at the Moonlight Parade.
44. Kino, the old King Guardia, and Doan travel to 1000 AD to talk with the new King Guardia and Crono & Co
45. Ayla and Kino return to 65000000
46. Magus goes somewhere (presumably 12,000 but that isn’t a definite)
47. Frog and the old King Guardia travel to 600 AD
48. Robo and Doan travel to 2300 AD
49. Crono’s Mother and Cats travel somewhere.
50. Crono & Co follow.

A few others to note:

A. Before the game begins, Janus is sent to 580ish
B. Before the game begins, Melchior is sent to 980ish
C. Before the game begins, Belthasar is sent to 2280ish
D. Before the game begins, Gaspar is sent to the End of Time.

Now to list all the instances implied in CC that force is applied to time:

1. Belthasar travels to 2300 AD (see C above).
2. Either Belthasar travels to 1000ish to see Lucca or she travels to 2300 to see Belthasar, or somehow the two communicate to develop the Prometheus Circuit
3. The person noted above returns to their original timeline.
4. Belthasar leaves 2300 AD to observe Project Kid
5. Time crash occurs, Chronopolis brought to around 12,000 BC
6. Dinopolis brought to around 12,000 BC
7. Magus gets to 1000ish AD (see 46 above)
8. Kid is sent by Schala to 1000ish AD
9. Belthasar travels to 1030ish to recruit Kid.
10. Kid travels to 1010 to save Serge
11. Belthasar travels to 1020ish to observe Serge.
12. Serge travels to 1005ish to rescue kid from the burning orphanage.

As amazing as it might seem, every instance above either conforms to expectations of elastic time or it can’t be properly analyzed as events following (or prior to) the application of those forces are not observed in game. Some of those that elastic time doesn’t address will be discussed a little later.

For those events in Chrono Trigger, I will reference them as CTXX (where XX is the number). Similarly, for Chrono Cross, I will reference them as CCXX (where XX is the number).

Before I begin this in-depth look at the evidence, however, allow me to identify the elements that I believe support elastic time, categorized by changes made in one time period and how those forces effect other time periods, in CT. According to brittle time, a change in one time period should effect every other time period while according to elastic time, a change in one time period should have little to no (and certainly diminishing) impact on other time periods, provided the change can be classified as a minor disturbance (while a major distortion would only increase in effect as time progresses).

Consider first, then, all temporal activity in 65,000,000 BC. Two dungeons are in this time period and it is rather important to the game; it provides for the return of the Masamune, it tells us of the origin of Lavos, and it provides us a link to Zeal. However, Crono & Co can only do one thing in this time period that even affects 12,000 BC. That is, by placing the Moonstone in the Sun Keep, the Moonstone will be there in other time periods. Beyond the Moonstones mere presence, those time periods remain unaffected. All Crono’s interactions with Ayla, Kino, and the Reptites do not visibly influence later periods.

Curiously, the Guardia Paradox is a Paradox because of Brittle Time. Remove Ayla (or Kino) from the timeline and the entire Guardia Line should disappear. Under Elastic Time, however, there isn't much of a problem. Remove Ayla or Kino from the timeline and time will try to spring back into its original shape (which had the Guardia Line). Consider that Marle gets only about 0.098% of her genetic information with a single great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparent (of which she’d have 1024), and Ayla/Kino are much further back in her ancestry than that (assuming each relative had a child at the age of 18, then there are nearly 3 million generations between Ayla and Marle. Given that there is only a 0.098% genetic similarity over 8 generations, over 3 million generations would effectively result in no distinguishable genetic heritage. Indeed, as humans only have about 30,000 known genes, it is quite possible that Marle has absolutely no genetic information, at all, that could be traced back to Ayla and Kino. However, this also touches on another theory; Time Index. But I will have to get to that later.

Next, consider 12,000 BC. Crono & Co can do two things here that clearly change other periods; 1) If Crono tells the plant lady to defy Queen Zeal, then in 600AD the entrance to Retinite’s layer is available (which disappears by 1000AD, thus to a net effect of 0). 2) If Crono interferes with the Ocean Palace Incident, then the Black Omen will rise. All other changes in 12,000 BC are erased by 600AD, and even the Black Omen’s effect on the whole of time is incredibly minimal (people know it is there, but history hasn’t been rewritten with its influence on the world). It is there, but while a few people comment on it in 600 AD and 1000 AD, its almost entirely ignored by 2300 AD.

Now consider 600AD. There are a lot of changes that can affect 1000AD, like the Fiona’s Forest or Ozzie’s Castle side quests. However one will note that by 1999AD Fiona’s Forest seems to have disappeared (certainly by 2300 AD), and the changes to the Mystics disappears in 2300 AD as well (as it appears that they are now extinct, or changed into mutant thingies).

1000 AD? Absolutely nothing can be changed here to affect the future.

Thus, the only time we see significant changes to the timeline are over short periods of time (400 years); the longer the time between cause and expected effect, the less likely there is to be an effect.

So now, allow me to address all instances of time travel in depth:

Marle Paradox

To start off, CT1, CT2, CT3, and CT4 all comprise the complex often referred to as the Marle Paradox and as such it would be best for me to address them as a special grouping.

To sum up the paradox, Marle travels back to 600 AD and unintentionally takes the place of Queen Leene. This ultimately results in Marle never being born and subsequently she vanishes in front of Crono’s eyes. However, if she never existed, how could Crono and Lucca even know about her in order to save her?

In most cases of this sort of thing, Time Traveler’s Immunity is invoked, but if Marle had TTI as we understand it, then she shouldn’t have disappeared at all, right?

Keep in mind, TTI could only come into play (assuming it exists) for major distortions under elastic time, but it is inherently needed for all of brittle time. This is because elastic time will never/seldom have an effect on the timeline that would change the future to the point where the original point of departure or arrival would be disrupted.

Under Brittle Time, there are a near infinite number of new timelines but we can break those into a few large groupings. When Marle first stepped back in time and became mistaken for Queen Leene, when Crono stepped back in time to save Marle, when Lucca stepped back in time to help Crono, when Marle disappeared, when Marle reappeared, and when the three returned to 1000 AD.

When Marle stepped back in time, we see no noticeable change to 1000 AD. Everything seemed to be exactly the same as before, and Crono and Lucca even recalled Marle’s existence (as do other people at the fair it seems). It would seem that the force applied to time (Marle’s presence in 600AD), to that point, was not sufficient to cause an observable change. Time, by all appearances, retained its shape.

Things get a little more difficult when Crono steps back; we do not see 1000 AD for quite some time, so we don’t know how the events in 600 AD are effecting that period. However, we catch a glimpse of this when Lucca shows up; she still remembers Crono and Marle, therefore indicating that there are no significant changes to 1000 AD, as one would expect under Elastic Time. Again, time seems to have retained its shape.

But then Marle disappears. This is certainly an observable change to the timeline, and thus gives us a little chance to see elastic time in action. It is curious to note that under Brittle Time, the Marle that returned should not have been the same Marle that disappeared; the Marle that disappeared would have been sent to the DBT, whereas the Marle that appeared should have been the result of the new timeline in which Crono and Lucca aided Frog. This is not how the characters react; they seem to believe that the Marle that appeared was the Marle that had originally existed.

Under elastic time, however, we might still suppose that sufficient force was applied to time in order to deform it sufficiently so as to make Marle not exist. That in, time was disturbed at least from 600 AD  to 1000AD (or really, 980ish). Crono and Lucca acted in a way to restore time’s original shape, restoring the original Marle just as the original shape was restored. If Marle did not have TTI, she would have been subject to any disturbances in the past.

An objection to that might be that while lacking TTI would explain how Marle disappears, it doesn't explain why Crono and Lucca remember her; they wouldn't have TTI either.

Sort of.

If this is only a minor disturbance, then the Crono and Lucca who are trying to save Marle are the Crono and Lucca who originally met her; they are not "time bastards" or anything of the sort. While matter and energy can be neither created nor destroyed, information can be created but it can't be destroyed. Because this is a minor distortion, nothing gets sent to the DBT, so the information regarding Marle's existence is still around in the timeline. Which means, even though Crono and Lucca's bodies might be ret-conned into being from a time period in which Marle didn't exist, they'd still have memories of her existence.

Would others in 1000AD remember Marle? sort of, but that relates to Time Reintegration which I will discuss later.

Going back to the paradox complex: When the three return to 1000 AD they see the world exactly as they left it (with the possible exception of Guardia having a Criminal Justice system). For all the time spent in 600 AD, the shape of time seems to be the same as when the three originally left. And by 2300, it is exactly the same.

As for the Criminal Justice system, it is noted by the Chancellor in 600 AD that Guardia needs to implement one. However, as we are unable to observe Guardian castle in 1000 AD prior to this (guards keep Crono out), we do not know if such a system existed prior to time travel or not.

Other Time Events

But now, for other events that might have effected time.

CT5, when the three step to 2300AD. Under brittle time, this should automatically be an unoriginal future, as it is a future in which Crono & Co, back in 1000 AD, left 1000 AD for 2300 AD. However, there is no indication that 2300 AD is any different from the three not being present in 1000 AD. We might suppose that their absence in 1000 AD caused a change to the timeline, but in the 1300 years, time has spring back to its original shape. Unfortunately, for more information we’d need to see further into the future to determine how their presence in this time period effected other time periods.

To note, this doesn’t change the past either. It is here that Crono and Co obtain their goal of stopping Lavos, but that alone has not caused time to change. We see that mere intention is not enough, action is required.

CT6, being to a location outside of time (the End of Time), doesn’t afford us a chance to observe how either 2300 is now different for the three not being there or how the End of Time (EoT) will be different in the future.

CT7 is a unique event (at this point) as from here forward we can always compare the changes in one timeline with the changes in another. No matter what Crono and Co do in 1000 AD, 2300 AD remains exactly the same. The party is applying a force to time, but that force is counteracted (thus keeping 2300AD, and even 1000 AD, the same).

CT8, the party goes back to 600 AD and obtain the Hero Medal and both parts of the Masamune. Returning to 1000 AD (CT9) and one will again note that there are no changes to the timeline; even removing powerful artifacts like the Masamune and the Hero Medal did not affect the shape of time. We can confirm this again by traveling to 2300 AD. Again, nothing is different.

CT10, the party travels back to 65,000,000 BC and obtain dreamstone, helping Ayla combat the Reptites in the process. Return to 1000 AD (CT11) and… nothing has changed. Time has remained exactly as it was before they party left. We might suppose that the events immediately following 65,000,000 BC were slightly different, but as time progressed those effects were less and less apparent until 1000 AD where they are non-existent. This confirms to the idea of minor disturbances.

CT12, the party helps Frog and defeat Magus. Curiously, here we also see no effect from the party’s actions in 65,000,000 BC. We could travel to 2300 AD to confirm this again. At the battle with Magus the party, along with the wizard himself, are thrown into time (CT13), the party to 65,000,000 and Magus to 12,000 BC. From here we could observe 600 AD, 1000 AD, and 2300 AD. None of those timeline display any change from the party’s actions in 65,000,000 BC to this point, 1000 AD barely displays any effect to the party’s actions in 600 AD (the defeat of Magus still occurred, but the "color" of it, if you will, is different and Crono has a dish named after him – not a lot of change to the shape of time after 400 years have passed), and 2300 AD remains exactly as it was, utterly immune to any changes that had occurred to the timeline. Notably, no time period is different for the changes Magus has been causing in 12,000 BC either.

CT14 and the part makes it to 12,000 BC themselves, after defeating Azala and seeing Lavos fall. We seen nothing in 12,000 BC that seems to have resulted from Crono & Co’s actions in 65,000,000 BC (but we can’t be sure as we didn’t see an unadulterated 12,000 BC either). Similarly, there are no visible effects of changes to the timeline in 600 AD, 1000 AD, or 2300 AD. The exact same can be said of CT15.

CT16 and CT17 are difficult as we never see a time period after Crono & Co’s actions to compare against those actions against.

CT18, Crono dies and the Black Omen arises. Finally, FINALLY, we see an effect that spans across timelines; the Black Omen exists in 12,000 BC, 600 AD, 1000 AD, and 2300 AD. Yet… time is barely changed for it. Other than its presence and a few people commenting on it, there are no differences to 600 AD, 1000 AD, or 2300 AD. Is this, then, still a minor disturbance or a major distortion? Probably the former, though it just has a very small effect on the whole shape of time implying an incredible amount of force (Lavos) was applied to the timeline. We ought note, we see no difference to 2300 AD for Crono being dead.

However, there is one other item to discuss in 600 AD resulting from Crono & Co being in Zeal. The Lady with the Plant given to her by Melchior plants it, which allows Retinite to be fought in 600 AD (how is unknown), which then relates to CT30. However, other than allowing Retinite to be fought, there is no immediate effect in 1000AD or 2300AD.

CT19, CT20, CT21, CT22, and CT23 is the complex of events that comprise the resurrection of Crono. It is notable as the party travels to before the current period accessible in 12,000 BC. The changes to the Ocean Palace Incident do not effect 12,000 BC, 600 AD, 1000 AD, or 2300 AD. It is, unfortunately, impossible to determine if Crono ever actually died or if the Time Egg allowed the party to travel through time error, essentially.

CT24 and CT25 is the complex of obtaining the Moon Stone and putting it in the Sun Keep. Curiously, this small action has greater significance than the rise of the Black Omen; the Moon stone can be seen in every time period (except 1999AD), while the Black Omen can only be seen in all but two time periods (65,000,000 BC and 1999 AD). However, this is closely tied into CT26, CT27, CT28, and CT29 (the other events necessary to get the Sun Stone). The stone goes missing in 1000 AD, effecting 2300 AD. The party finds the sun stone in 1000 AD but have to go to 600 AD to give the mayor’s ancestor jerky, which causes the mayor in 1000 AD to be kind and generous. It is curious that the leader of an entire city (and possibly an entire nation) can change personalities and go from being greedy to being generous, yet no one outside his house is affected. Porre is the same, Guardia is the same, etc.

The moon stone is replaced and harvested in 2300 AD. Yet for its presence in the timeline over 65,002,300 years, nothing in 2300 AD is different except its own presence there.

CT30 has a large impact, or so it seems. Robo helps Fiona in 600AD and in 1000AD a forest is now where there used to be desert. And entire continent’s environment was radically changed, seemingly creating an important change to the timeline. Except that the change did not affect 2300 AD at all (and even if one visits 1999 AD, there is no change; the land around southern Zenan is still desert like, implying that the forest was not long lasting). An entire forest appears in the timeline and 2300 AD remains unaffected. Seems like a minor disturbance to me.

CT31, CT32, and CT33 are also interesting as Lucca travels to sometime around 990AD and saves her own mother from an accident. Before CT31, Lara had her legs crushed and Lucca takes up science so that something like that (her mother being paralyzed) will never happen again. After CT31, child Lucca takes up science so that something like that (her mother being almost paralyzed) will never happen again. Despite the fact that exact opposite results occurred, the outcome is exactly the same, displaying that time attempts to retain its shape, springing back from forces applied to it.

CT34, CT35, and CT36 are the complex of obtaining the Rainbow Shell from Giant’s Claw in 600AD. After doing so, there is indeed a change to 1000AD, but again no change to 2300 AD. The change to 1000AD is discussed below.

CT37 reveals that obtaining the Rainbow Shell created a royal treasury in Guardia by 1000 AD. Indeed, the King is on trial or misusing that treasury. However, it should be noted that though the treasury exists, the King is largely unaware of this. We might suppose Marle would be confused, as she might have grown up in a castle without this treasury and might not have conscious memory of it, but the King should have been influenced by the change to the timeline, shouldn't he? That he wasn’t aware of the treasury seems to imply that the change to the timeline, originating in 600 AD, though it persisted through 1000 AD, was being minimized. By 2300 AD, again there is no visible change.

CT38, CT39, and CT40, in combination with the end of CT37, comprise the complex of putting Cyrus to rest. Tools from 1000AD are taken to 600AD so a carpenter can fix the northern ruins. The end result in that in 1000AD, the Ghost of Cyrus no longer haunts the ruins and the location is now a monument. Beyond that, there are no changes; Choras remains the same, and the changes don’t carry over into 2300 AD, and the tools stay in 600AD (curiously making them 400 years older than they should be at any given point after 1001).

CT41 is unobservable, as the party defeats Mother Brain in 2300 but we never see the ultimate outcome of that. There is nothing after 2300 to be effected. Indeed, this even gets undone it would seem when the future is saved.

CT42 is clearly the biggest one. Every time period, except 65,000,000 BC, is presumably effected by thing (though that assumes Lavos is defeated in 12,000 BC). Most notably 2300AD actually changes to reflect the change to the timeline. This is not a small change either, rather a gigantic change (allowing all of Chrono Cross to happen). If there is only one Temporal Distortion Wave in the game, then this is it.

CT43 through CT50 are interesting matters that, unfortunately, we don’t get to see their effects on time in general; only on that single moment in 1000AD.

To note, Kino and King Guardian 600AD are apparently able to be in the present without effecting the timeline (thus indicating that time is retaining its shape against the force applied by their time travels), and Doan returns to 2300 AD under the assumption that there is a new timeline, as resulting from CT42.

CTA, CTB, CTC, and CTD are all interesting events, however only one seems to have significantly altered time; Janus being sent to the Middle Ages. We might presume that, if the whole of time existed before Janus and the Guru’s were warped to different time periods, then there was no Magus in 600AD. No Magus and there might not have been a human/mystic war (though that is just supposition). Unfortunately we don’t see how time appeared before this, so we don’t know for sure.

CC2 is mostly a deduction; Lynx attempted to get Lucca to release the Prometheus Circuit Lock, implying that the Lucca in question know something about it, which in turn implies she helped Belthasar in developing at least some aspects of Project Kid. That the circuit was used in FATE implies that Lucca traveled to 2300AD ish to create the circuit.

CC4 Belthasar leaves 2300 but the future continues without him directly according to his plan. Brittle time would indicate that the very act of leaving should have discarded the timeline Belthasar had been working on as soon as he left, possibly having unforeseeable effects.

CC5 The Time Crash sends Chronopolis back to around 12,000BC, where FATE attempts to prevent Chronopolis from effecting the timeline. However, its mere presence there indicates that the timeline is affected under brittle time; FATE failed from the get-go. Regardless, FATE operates under the assumption that the timeline that exists is the timeline that will lead to the very same Chronopolis that falls victim to the Time Crash. In short, even with a major event like the Time Crash, time still attempts to retain its shape.

CC7 Magus gets to the general time period of Serge and Kid. Though a powerful figure in history, capable of changing time (as he did originally in 600AD when he led the Mystic war), by all appearances the 2400 future that Chronopolis came from remains intact.

CC8 Unfortunately we never saw time before Kid arrived in the world, so we don’t know how time was effected.

CC9 and CC10 results in the dimensions being split. Curiously, it is Serge’s existence that causes the future of Home World to be destroyed; the mere act of time traveling didn’t cause this, as Another World’s future appears unchanged. Certainly this is a very large change, but one that, after 10 years, seems to have only had a small effect (home world and another world are different, but nothing indicates that one would be lead to the apocalypse and the other to a saved future, other than the Dead Sea). This implies that there is a change to the timeline that we either don't see or for which the significance is not made clear.

CC11 Belthasar travels to 1020 to influence Serge. His presence there, and his relationship with the Viper clan and the Acacia Dragoons seem to be minor, as the future appears to still be saved there.

CC12 Serge saves Kid’s past. Kid remains exactly the same person as she was before, albeit now awake, and nothing in the world is even remotely different.

The evidence strongly suggests that, in most cases, when a force is applied to time, time attempts to retain its shape and spring back, minimizing that force’s influence on the whole of the timeline. This in turn is right in line with the theme of Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross; that changes to the future are intentional and rare things that humans are capable of.

Time Index

I've mentioned this a few times, so it is good to explain it a little more.

By Theme is Supreme, no change in the game should happen unless an individual takes action to change it. Crono at the start of the game might defeat Lavos in 10 months, but he doesn't do so until he actually defeats lavos. Stepping onto the path doesn't complete the path.

We might suppose that Time is like a book, with the events of a timeline represented by various pages. We are the editor. We want to make a change to Crono (transporting him back in time from 1000AD to 600 AD). So, we use the index, find the proper pages, and start editing. Just because we start editing one page doesn't mean a page twenty pages ahead of us gets changed. We have to get there first. The changed don't happen until they happen.

In the same way, on the unadulterated timeline, Ayla might have a child at age 40 (or in (64,999,980 BC), but at the age of 20 she starts traveling through time with Crono. While time may change because of any actions Ayla takes, she is only 20; she can't change the 64,999,980 until she is 40 (the point at which the child's birth is indexed).

So what happens? Well an individual's absence has a minimal but important long-term effect on time. It is like a very minor force is being applied over a long period of time. If Ayla traveled to 64,999,980 and killed herself, she might exert a force of "200 units" on the timeline. But by being absent, she is exerting a force of 10 units on the timeline per year. The force disturbs the timeline to the extent that it includes her not being there, but it doesn't disturb the timeline enough to change something 20 years in the future (at least, not until the force applied over a length of time equals the requires force to change the timeline).

Time Reintegration

Damn this has been a long post. But we're in the final stretch.

I've also mentioned Time Reintegration a few time. But let me connect this to the previous thread to a greater degree:

We see in the joke endings that time travellers can have their bodies altered, but not their minds.
While non-time travellers can have both altered.  But why?

Timeline Reintegration.

This is actually in lockstep with the joke endings. As I said before, one cannot destroy information. So the information of timelines must still be present somewhere. I would propose it is present in the very minds and bodies of those who it should be.

Robo and Doan can return to 2300 AD at the end of the game because they know that they won’t cease to exist nor will they cause the "new" them to cease to exist, because they are the new ones. They are one in the same.

Matter can't be created, but it can exist in two places at once. When a major distortion happens and a new timeline is created, the matter has to come from somewhere. I would propose that it gets shared with Time Travelers until such a time as the two different locations can be reintegrated.

If a time traveler not being in their native timeline can have an influence that inherently changes a timeline, then the time traveler returning to their native timeline should remove that influence. Which means, they have to reintegrate into the normal flow of time.

Not remembering events that they "lived through" would disrupt that. When Marle, Lucca, and Crono first return to 1000 AD, they remembered the changes to that timeline (specifically, the remembered that they weren't there). Other instances of individuals remembering changes to the timeline are difficult to find, but we see one in CC. Serge can travel back in time to save the children of the burning orphanage. It appears that even people who didn't travel with him remember Kid being sick, but the fact that she recovers means she remembers the children being saved. Memories of two "different" timelines seem to coincide in a single reality.

Which means, Robo in the saved 2400 could potentially remember his adventures with Crono & Co, and he could remember his life in the saved future from 1999 to 2300. He couldn’t tell which Robo he is, because both Robos are the same matter and have the same memories.

Which means, Time Bastards are the exact same as Time Legitimates, so there are never any duplicates to confuse matters.

Okay, I'm exhausted now. I tried to sum up something I've been working on for a little less than a year, so I am sorry if I left anything out, if I rambled, or if this was just way too long and incoherent to read.

EDIT: Wow, I can't believe the forum let me post that all as a single post.

[Eske]

Wow... I think you just ended the revolution with one post... lol

I completely agree with Time Index though:

To my knowledge, efforts in the past can only change 3 events in the future:

1) Save Fritz in 1000AD and the diary appears in the sewers.
2) Place the sun stone in the past and it appears in the future.
3) Kill Lavos and the bright future takes place.

Notice that the 3rd one is the only one that apparently doesn't immediately manifest itself.
The question is:  what is the difference between the first two changes and the last?

The answer is that the first two take place at or before 1000AD, either affecting the absolute present or changing the past.  The third one presumably takes place in 1999AD, a point in time that has yet to occur.

Despite the Entity's powers, I doubt that it can "will" the future to be a certain way, it only presumes or dreams it to be so.
Therefore, my understanding is that an event has to actually happen in the real timeline before it is takes effect.
Until Crono appears in 1999AD to defeat Lavos, 2300AD will apparently remain unchanged.

If there is one issue that people can try to argue, its that because information cannot be destroyed, people can have both the old and new memories.  I believe the issue of changing someones experiences in the timeline used to be the core of "brittle time" oriented theories.

You mentioned how the King seemed unaware of the treasure, but this can be explained away as "oh the Rainbow Shell was in storage for 400 years and mostly forgotten".  What cannot be explained away is how the guard in the castle seems perplexed by the new door, saying something like "wait, were there always stairs there?"  or something along those lines.    <  He isn't sure, he has conflicting memories.

Also, the ending of CC has peoples' consciousnesses being merged at the Reunification point.  This would be a dimensional example of something that happens whenever time is changed.


So, Thought, nice work!    Maybe this will net you Guru status   

[placidchap]

Party pooper.  No need to be sorry about the length though, as Eske said, nice work!

That was the only geometry taught in my highschool...and there is no proof in respect to whether it is euclidean  or not...but it was still fun (at least for me) to try and think of 2D and 3D time. 

That will be a lot to think about although it does seem fairly straight forward.

Incase you didn't read any of my posts after the one you quoted, I have little problem with it now, certainly not enough to try and retire it as I originally mentioned...my little journey here helped me understand exactly what the Compendium is saying when referring to "Time Error"...even though it is a misnomer. Now if Time Error was called Time Index (disregarding what you define as Time Index), things would have certainly fallen into place a lot sooner for me, as the name "Time Index" is far more appropriate to what the Compendium refers to as "Time Error".

It was comforting to know that was a little less than a year in the making...it takes me 3 hours  to come up with each post that I have in this thread.

A one thing that came to mind:
You mentioned numerous times that changes to the past  have little to no effect on 2300AD.  This that is true, but holds little value.  2300AD remains destroyed because of the 1999 eruption.  Any changes resulting from a change in the past would have most likely been destroyed with the eruption of Lavos.  Comparing changes in the past to a time after massive destruction, has little value in my eyes.

[Eske]

Couldn't the Y-axis function as the W-axis? 

Well, Time Error would only cover the sequencing of events on ONE timeline, not both because you can change the past on one timeline and leave the other timeline alone entirely.  That means that when you cross between them, you will still need an even higher order of time to govern the order of those trips:  Time Error Error

The thing is:  If the Y axis is a throttle for time as you said before, it can only perform that function.  I can go back and forth on the EoT timeline and change things.  That order would be defined by the Z-axis.  The same goes for the normal timeline.  But if I move between the EoT and NT, both the timeline AND the Time Errorline of each have to be accounted for.   The Y axis cannot account for that.   So, we would need a higher level of time to govern the order of the timelines and time errorlines relative to eachother.

[placidchap]

Another concern:

In your explanation of Time Index, you basically say that editing page 600 should not change page 1000.  But the in game evidence would suggest otherwise.  Marle heading back to page 600 directly affects page 1000 and she poofs from existence.  This would seem to indicate that the pages of the book are more like a spreadsheet excel; all information set up in the order that it was entered, with what would be considered the present "value" of the person based on a complex set of look-up formulas based on previous data, plus present data as it is entered.  When Marle prevents Leene from being rescued, she breaks the relevant formula in row 600 and the present "value" cell of Marle comes back as...dun dun dun....#N/A!

Now the reason why Crono and Lucca remember could be explained simply as: Marle goes back in time, Leene search is aborted, Word gets out to relevant rescuers, Marle ceases to exist, King or someone sees Marle as Leene disappear, panic ensues resulting in re-instating the search for Leene, Leene is found, Marle reappears.  Since this all happened in the past, by the time 1000AD rolls around (or 980Ad for that matter), everything occurs as it should, Marle is born, Marle goes back in time, Crono and Lucca remember her because she was born in 980. 

[Thought]

@ Eske

Thanks. I’m glad you liked it.

I’m sorry, I’m not sure I followed all your points. But let me see if I understand this correctly, you are saying that there is an individual in game who is not a time traveler but who notes the appearance of the storeroom door in Guardia castle? I haven’t encountered that in game, I don’t think. However, that would seemingly relate to Time Reintegration and Elastic Time. Nothing was sent to the DBT, so the individual would still have the knowledge of the old form of the timeline. The question is one of accessing it. I would generally say that normal individuals can’t access it. To use an example (because, in case you didn’t notice, I like explain through analogy), humans (supposedly) technically remember everything we experience. The problem is in accessing those memories; only a few memories get significant pathways established that allow us to recall that information. The info is there, if we could but access it.

Huh, in looking for that information I came across a lot of stuff regarding the Chancellor that I hadn’t seen before. I wonder if Yakra took him over before or after Crono time traveled. Ah, found what you were referring to:

Same thing on the left…

But weren’t there some stairs, over there?

Curiously, let’s look at Marle’s statements as well:

What are you saying!?
It’s a lie!
There IS no heirloom!

Aha!
The Rainbow Shell we gave to my
ancestor 400 years ago is still here.

It’s probably in the basement!

Yes, these are very valuable quotes. On one hand, Marle doesn’t remember having the Rainbow Shell at first (as one might expect under Brittle Time… I need a better name for that). However, after remembering that the shell exists, she remembers where it would be located. In the basement… that didn’t exist in the original timeline. Both a time traveler AND a time non-traveler appear to have memories from both the original and new timelines, memories that only their Time Bastards (assuming Brittle Time) would have had.

To note, the Retranslation script is to the same effect as well.

Thanks, Eske! That provides actual in game evidence supporting Time Reintegration and Elastic Time.

Side note… does saving or not saving Fritz actually influence the diary in the sewers in 2300 AD? Wow, I never knew that. That will provide a conundrum for later.

@Placidchap #1

Yeah, Time Error is a misnomer. It looks like it started as essentially a margin of error (as it were), but developed into something far greater without changing its name.

Heh, well I tend to be lazy and not work on stuff terribly quick. Especially when it is that long and complex (and by complex I mean, simple).

Very true, 2300 remains unchanged due to destruction, however I was trying to be thorough. It might be obvious that no change would have happened, but it should still be mentioned formally.

However, Fiona’s Forest was a very large change to 1000AD. While it appears that the forest and the majority of Porre were destroyed in the apocalypse, its effect on the general environment could have possibly still effected 2300 AD. More flora might have been present, resulting in more remains in 2300 AD.

However, to note, Brittle Time relies on the Light Cone information. That information is quite similar to the Butterfly Effect; even a minor change in the past has the potential for altering the future. Saving a forest in 1000 AD might have well changed city structures in 1999 (and thus, subsequently, 2300 AD). Or, the light reflected off a time traveler alone as the potential to change a timeline. If such small influences can change the timeline, then one would expect that they will change the timeline (specifically, in a manner observable). While one wouldn’t expect many changes to carry over into 2300 AD, one should expect a few given Brittle Time and the Butterfly Effect.

@Placidchap #2

Terribly sorry; as you might imagine, after such a long post I wasn't being as thorough as I should have been. Actually, looking over my own post there is a lot of explanations that I should have included that I left out.

An index is essentially the comparison of two things; I used that term because essentially it seems that when an individual steps out of time, that individuals own personal timeline (their past and future) needs specific addressing, as evidence by the effects on the timeline being different than the effects on the time traveler. One might almost classify this in the same general theoretical category as TTI; that is, both theories, though different, address similar issues (that being, how effects on the timeline in turn affect the Time Traveler). Essentially, we have two records and in order to change one, the other needs to be referenced.

600 AD immediately affects 1000 AD for a rather simple reason; it doesn't have indexing problems. The only the timeline that is effected is the general timeline; there is no temporal force being applied to Marle's own timeline. Thus, it affects Marle because everything it affects is in the "now."

This is different than the Guardia paradox because, in that case, temporal force is applied to both the timeline and Ayla's own timeline. There are choices later in Ayla's life that she has yet to make or not make. If one had merely killed Ayla instead of her traveling in time, the change would have been immediate; only one timeline was involved. But by traveling in time, there is a conflict: the past (Ayla leaving the time period) is attempting to affect the future (Ayla having a child at the age of 40) by circumventing the present (Ayla traveling with Crono at the age of 20). The past can immediately affect the future, but only indirectly; it has to effect the present and then the present affects the future. By time traveling, individuals take themselves out of the normal flow of time, essentially dampening the effects that the past can have on the future by placing their present in control of a different flow (Time Error).

Curiously, this does mean that the future is constantly being influenced by the present as long as the time traveler is gone. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, as it were. By intentionally not being in one's proper time period, one is exerting a force on that time period. This is akin to the force that would have been applied if the individual was killed by a time traveler, but instead of focused on a single instance, it is spread out. If the individual were killed, it would have caused an immediate change to the timeline because it effected every day of that individuals future. But by just not being there, the individual is affecting the timeline at the rate of one second per second. That is, time is disturbed a little more by each second that the individual is gone.

To use a physics example; you raise a 100 lb log 10 feet in an instant by applying a lot of energy to a single point. Or one could roll it up a hill, exerting less energy in any given instance, but exerting energy for a longer period of time.

One could also suppose a second difference between Marle's disappearance and the Guardia Paradox; the Guardia Paradox is caused by mere absence from a time period causing a change. Marle's disappearance, however, appears to be the result of direct actions (remember the underlying premise of everything I said; Theme is Supreme).

Also, as for Marle disappearing, I would generally maintain Marle was not the one who acted to cause her disappearance. This is because time changes instantaneously. If Marle caused her own disappearance, she should have disappeared the moment that action was taken. But she doesn't, she disappears before Crono's eyes. And she should reappear the moment Leene was saved, but she doesn't, she reappears before Crono's eyes. I would propose, then, that the action that both caused Marle to disappear and to reappear had nothing to do directly with Marle. Personally, I would put the impetus on Frog (though Marle's influence on Frog is what caused him to act). His decision to leave is closer to the event of Marle’s return, implying it was more significant than the rescue of Leene.

[chrono eric]

Jesus, Thought. It's gonna take me so damn long to read all of this now...I'll be back in like 5 days or something with criticism and/or praise.

[Thought]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I am physically incapable of doing something in a brief, concise, and short manner. Sorry.

[Chrono'99]

Wow, that post is very interesting. This will take a long time for anyone to review it and make sure there's no hole in your theories, Thought, but if all goes well I agree you should get the Guru of Reason status.

The part I don't clearly understand is Time Index. Are you saying that, for instance, if Ayla travels from 65,000,000 BC to 600 AD, she arrives in a timeline in which there is a (future) version of Ayla in 64,999,9xx B.C. that had a child?

[Thought]

Thanks, I hope you like it (though I've been noticing holes myself; for example, I never took into consideration the possibility of having a Red Vest and Red Plate taken from the same chest in different timelines; I need to give that more thought).

As for Time Index... sort of.

Even though 64,999,9xx BC Ayla is in the "future" from 65,000,000 BC Ayla on a normal time scale, 64,999,9xx BC Ayla is actually in the "past" on a Time Error Scale. This is a bit backwards, but in order to change the past you have to either travel to the past or wait until the past is the present (sort of like chaing the future requires one to travel to the future or wait until the future is in the present).

I just spend an hour trying to explain this in a variety of manners, but I deleted it all for a more elegant explanation that I just thought of. You are familiar with Time Bastard, right? Well Time Index is sort of like that, only in reverse.

Under TB, Ayla might Travel to 1000 AD and then travel to 600 AD. In 600 AD she changes the future, so then the Ayla that appears in 1000 AD will now appear in the changed future. But this Ayla is a Time Bastard; she can only exist only for that period of time that the original Ayla had spent in 1000 AD. When that time is up, the TB "dies." However, the original Ayla survives.

Now try to switch that around to understand Time Index. In a pristine Timeline, Ayla lives in 65,000,000 BC and sometimes in 64,999,9xx has a child (lets call this Time Error 1). At Time Error 2, Ayal in 65,000,000 BC time travels. There are now two of them; the timeline has changed in a manner similar to TB. But instead of living for a period then dieing, the Ayla getting discarded (that is, the original, pre-time traveling Ayla) "dies" and then lives. Ever minute the Time Traveler Ayla is in time, the original Ayla dies for that minute. But the original Ayla from that minute onward (on a normal time scale, not a time error scale) continues to live. So she's essentially being shunted to the DBT (to use TB terms) in the past and lives on in the future. How much original Ayla ceases to exist depends on how long Time Traveler Ayla stays away.

When Crono first time travels, we might know that in 2 months of Time Error he will kill Lavos. But until those 2 months have passed, Lavos remains unkilled.

Likewise, when Ayla first time travels, we might know that in 10 years of Time Error she will "kill" (kill by replacing) the Ayla that had a child. But until those 10 years have passed, the Ayla that had the child remains unkilled (thatis, unreplaced).

While there are fundamental differences between Time Bastard and Time Index, I think this might help you understand the later using the former as an aid.

Did that help any?

[chrono eric]

That is a very interesting concept, Thought, and quite counterintuitive. But I like the plasticity that the timeline offers with this idea. I still haven't had time to finish your entire post, but this Time Index idea - I like it.

[Chrono'99]

Okay, I think I get the gist of Time Index. So, let's say like in your example that in the original timeline, Ayla had a child in 64,999,990 BC. If in the Keystone timelines Ayla travels for less ten years before returning to Prehistory, then all is well, but if she travels for more than ten years then her giving birth to a child will be erased from history, right? And if she is in 11,990 BC (for instance) when that happens, would people suddenly disappear/change around her, like how Marle disappeared in 600 AD? Actually, would Marle herself (in the party or at the End of Time) disappear again or change in some way at that moment too?

There's an interesting quote from Gaspar in the End of Time that seems like it describes this theory, although it could also just be a gameplay indication since you had to visit Medina 1000 AD at that part of the game.

   Now, I know you are itching to go
   ripping back and forth through time,
   but first you need to return to your
   era.

   And you must hurry.
   The longer you remain here, the
   harder it will be to change that
   which must be changed...

   Stop by whenever you're in the
   area!

[Thought]

Okay, I think I get the gist of Time Index. So, let's say like in your example that in the original timeline, Ayla had a child in 64,999,990 BC. If in the Keystone timelines Ayla travels for less ten years before returning to Prehistory, then all is well, but if she travels for more than ten years then her giving birth to a child will be erased from history, right?

I think so. This is the truth, this is my belief... at least for now.
Though I would probably argue that the shape of the timeline might still be changed. Stepping out of normal time seems to apply a force to the timeline, so there needs to be a way (in my mind) of stepping back into time in such a way as to remove the continued pressure of that. Hence, Time Reintegration. Ayla would return and have a child (removing the force from the timeline), but that wouldn't undo the effect the force had originally. (that would require another force to counteract it).

And if she is in 11,990 BC (for instance) when that happens, would people suddenly disappear/change around her, like how Marle disappeared in 600 AD? Actually, would Marle herself (in the party or at the End of Time) disappear again or change in some way at that moment too?

If we assume "Brittle Time" then yes, everything would presumably change around her but Marle wouldn't change (because "Brittle Time" requires TTI).

But if we assume Elastic Time, then while it is possible everything would change, and Marle included (as TTI is not required), I would say it is unlikely. The question, of course, being if a change to Ayla's line would be a minor disturbance or a major distortion, and if the former how far out the ripples of disturbance would reach.

Between 64,999,990 BC and 11,990 BC there would be roughly 2,599,520 generations (assuming a generous average age of 25 before childbirth; in reality, an age of 14-16 is probably more accurate). Now, an individual gets 50% of her DNA from her mother and 50% from her father. Or, one could say, she gets 25% of her DNA from each grandparent, 12.5% from each great grandparent, 6.25% from each great great grandparent, and so on. The genetic differences between individuals in the Dark Ages because of Ayla's child never being born are probably non-existent; it is even possible that not a single DNA sequence in the dark ages could be traced back to this child either way. The cultural differences would be potentially greater, as there are no statistics we can rely upon to attempt to estimate the effect, but likewise cultural affects generally decline as time goes on. Changes to 11,990 BC would seemingly be non-existent or at the very least minimal. And Marle would be even less affected.

Regarding the quote from Gaspar, I looked it up in the Retranslation:

It looks as though you guys are about to go
and perpetrate something unreasonable, but
perhaps you should first try returning to your
era?   

Less haste, more speed...
When you're here, you come to understand
well the meaning even such words as those...

While both are quite interesting (the NA translation more so), it does seem like he is just advising general due diligence.

[FaustWolf]

I'm curious how the new theories jive with Crimson Echoes events. Would any events in CE be impossible under the new set of assumptions that you fellows have developed?

[Thought]

CE is largely built upon the "brittle time" model. That is, any change in the past creates an entirely new timeline. However, from what I have seen so far, it doesn't actually contradict the concept of elastic time. While I'd argue that many of the changes to the past weren't sufficient to create the radically different timelines indicated in the game, it isn't impossible that they are (especially when one considers the underlying principle of Elastic Time: Theme is Supreme).

There are even a few points in it that seem to support the concept of elastic time. To note, I'm not caught up on the videos so I'm actually drawing from the 4B plotline sketch I've seen of Crimson Echoes (which I believe is not the final plotline for the game, so this information might not reflect the final product). At one point, Belthasar notes that Chronopolis will exist in a timeline without Guardia, and at another point he argues that the team has already shunted one timeline to the DBT, they aught not balk at shunting another.

That Chronopolis will exist regardless of the relationship between Porre and Guardia indicates elastic time. Events in 1000ish AD have reduced impact on the timeline the further one gets from the point of impacts.

That after all the team does in CC, only one "timeline" is discarded indicates that only one temporal distortion wave occurs; the rest were disturbances that, though far reaching, did not actually shunt anything to the DBT. They were modifactions, not replacements.

So a lot of stuff in CE would have been unlikely with my theories, but so far it doesn't look like anything would have been outright impossible.