Author Topic: The Subjunctive Mood  (Read 1969 times)

ZeaLitY

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The Subjunctive Mood
« on: October 01, 2006, 10:26:14 pm »
If you write "If I was president, I'd...", you're in error. You should write "If I were president, I'd..." The same rule applies to several situations. This is the subjunctive tense. If you want to be respected by the merit of your writing, use it.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2006, 09:26:18 am by ZeaLitY »

ctnovelist

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Re: The Subjunctive Tense
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2006, 10:59:25 pm »
First off, to whom are you addressing this to?  I must say, it's a very unorthodox post for the front page, and very interesting nonetheless.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2006, 11:04:23 pm by ctnovelist »

ChibiBob

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Re: The Subjunctive Tense
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2006, 11:01:34 pm »
The should-be English major has spoken.

ZeaLitY

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Re: The Subjunctive Tense
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2006, 11:25:08 pm »
I moved it to General Discussion. What made me break down and post this are a number of infractions I've heard all weekend.

ctnovelist

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Re: The Subjunctive Tense
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2006, 11:41:42 pm »
Infractions, eh?  Care to elaborate?  (Now I'm just curious.)

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: The Subjunctive Tense
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2006, 11:54:54 pm »
Is this directed only to the USers, or to everyone?
EDIT: USers meaning United States people. Of course, if I was as smart as some peoples, I would of analysed this witty pun thingo magig.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2006, 11:57:57 pm by Burning Zeppelin »

ZeaLitY

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Re: The Subjunctive Tense
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2006, 12:05:07 am »
Just people in general. Like the current SomethingAwful update gets it wrong. And I've heard that Britons don't use the subjunctive tense at all, so they're blasted too. That may have been an utter lie, though.

ctnovelist

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Re: The Subjunctive Tense
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2006, 12:16:06 am »
Heh, I see.  We're here for ya, man!

Lord J Esq

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Re: The Subjunctive Tense
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2006, 01:25:31 am »
Since we're playing grammar here, the subjunctive is a mood and not a tense. Grammatical mood is a form of verb typification. Syntactically, mood is denoted by verb inflection, which is what caused you to notice with such dismay that people have been using the subjunctive incorrectly.

In English there is only one fully operational mood--the indicative--and so I suppose few schools bother to teach the concept at all. I myself only learned about it in third-year high school Spanish. The handful of other moods which do still exist in modern English are either vestiges or special cases, and either way they not functional moods and are usually taught as irregularities in the language without the word "mood" ever being mentioned.

The subjunctive mood indicates a statement whose action has the condition of being hypothetical. If you were omniscient, you would have already known that. But you're not omniscient; I was merely speculating; and this was expressed by my last sentence, via the subjunctive mood.

Another way of looking at mood is that, from the English perspective, nearly the entire function of mood is accomplished by the indicative, without verb inflection excepting only a few specific moods. Indeed, from the English perspective, the concept itself of mood is somewhat vague, and a list of moods would look mostly arbitrary and sometimes repetitious.

My talents do not extend to a functional understanding of other languages (besides Spanish), but you might look to Legend of the Past for an insight into how Hebrew handles mood, or to Daniel Krispin for Latin and Greek. No doubt these individuals, being fluent in the respective tongues, will be able to offer the sort of enlightenment that I as a speaker of your own native language cannot provide.

Chrono'99

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Re: The Subjunctive Tense
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2006, 07:27:25 am »
Languages evolve, they're never set in stone. In my opinion, there are enough people who say "if I was" for it to not be an "error".

Of course there are still people who say "if I were", so using this subjuntive form is preferable in serious or professional situations. But I'm sure that in about 50 years at most, the subjuntive will be forgotten and "it I was" will be a totally accepted form. This kind of things happen in French too, some tenses are still necessary in writings but simply don't exist in oral form anymore (or would be very cheesy).

Lord J Esq

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Re: The Subjunctive Tense
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2006, 08:42:40 am »
Languages evolve, they're never set in stone. In my opinion, there are enough people who say "if I was" for it to not be an "error".

Of course there are still people who say "if I were", so using this subjuntive form is preferable in serious or professional situations. But I'm sure that in about 50 years at most, the subjuntive will be forgotten and "it I was" will be a totally accepted form. This kind of things happen in French too, some tenses are still necessary in writings but simply don't exist in oral form anymore (or would be very cheesy).

You're right about language evolving according to the usages of those who speak it, but it is kind of sad to see someone willingly advocate for the demise of a more functional language form in favor of a more popular one. It might seem esoteric or even pedantic to insist upon a distinction as simple as a verb inflection, but language is a crucial mode of human thought, and how we speak ultimately influences how we think. Using language without knowing the rules is just like using a computer without knowing the rules: It would be far less powerful to you, because you would not know how to utilize its full potential. All those people who complain how "there are no words to describe how I feel" are unwittingly their own enemy. It might not be much of a problem when we are talking only about some rather antiquated verb usages from a near-extinct mood, but we have all seen the rapidity with which language usage can decay when left in the hands of those who do not respect it and do not wish to understand or master it.

So let me make a distinction: The evolution of language is inevitable, but the way in which it evolves can be judged and consequently guided. We may support new or different usages, but we should never support misuse by sloth, apathy, or ignorance. I see no benefit whatsoever in eliminating the subjunctive mood from English syntax, but I see at least one glaring cost: By folding the subjunctive mood verb inflections into those of the indicative, it will be almost impossible to teach English-speaking students grammatical mood by example.

Romana

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Re: The Subjunctive Tense
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2006, 09:17:16 am »
I try to hold grammar in such high regard, that it's scary. It's incredibly rare that I would ever make a mistake during writing.  :?

ZeaLitY

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Re: The Subjunctive Mood
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2006, 09:27:13 am »
If I could get the advertisers in this city to do something else, I'd have them drop the habit of adding an apostrophe after every plural word that ends in s.

"SENIOR'S!! Do you want a discount on CD's!? If you are over 65 you may qualify for a discount at the local bank."

Romana

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Re: The Subjunctive Mood
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2006, 09:29:57 am »
If I could get the advertisers in this city to do something else, I'd have them drop the habit of adding an apostrophe after every plural word that ends in s.

"SENIOR'S!! Do you want a discount on CD's!? If you are over 65 you may qualify for a discount at the local bank."

My school, and just about everywhere around where I live makes that mistake constantly. It's very annoying, to say the least.  :x

CD's...Heh...Morons...

V_Translanka

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Re: The Subjunctive Mood
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2006, 04:20:14 pm »
If you write "If I was president, I'd...", you're in error.

If the next word was "have", meaning that "I'd" would change meaning from the "I would" that you're implying to an "I would have", it would be fine. 8)

But yeah, normally your tenses should match. :lol: