Author Topic: Proposal: Balancing the Characters  (Read 1472 times)

Oswego del Fuego

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Proposal: Balancing the Characters
« on: August 14, 2005, 02:52:04 pm »
Here's my thinking.  We need to be very particular about how the characters are set up, for two major reasons.

First is the fun factor.  This is a new game with two new characters (assuming you count Glenn).  The player will want to see  lots of new stuff, and this gives us an opportunity to do some things that Trigger could have done, but didn't.  By the same token, if the returning characters have the same old Tech lists, and simply have to relearn everything, it will be a snore-fest.  Ditto that if the new characters are mere carbon copies of those they're replacing, or if they try to fill niches already held by other characters.

That brings me to the second big reason:  gameplay quality.  You may notice that Marle and Frog receive little love on many message boards.  Why?  Because, like it or not, they lose a lot of their play value in New Game +.  Much of Marle's healing becomes obsolete, and neither Frog's physical attack, attack magic, nor support magic can hold up against the abilities of his comrades (at least in the opinion of many, and game makers should be interested in such opinions).  In other words, the roles these characters play simply don't retain their full usefulness as the characters reach the upper levels.  We really must endeavor to avoid such an outcome in Crimson Echoes.

With all of that in mind, I'd like to propose a complete outline for how the character's could work, including their Tech lists, how the new Techs operate, what niche in the whole scheme of gameplay dynamics each hero seeks to fill, and so on.  I don't know if there's much interest in this right now, but these issues are ultimately just as important as the story, graphics, or anything else, and will have to be decided upon concretely sooner or later.  So... let's hash 'em out!

Without further ado, here's my proposal.  (Note:  Techs in boldface are those I imagine the characters starting with.)



CRONO

Lightning

Katana

primary physical attack

Single Techs:
 Cyclone
*Lightning
 Slash
 Twister
*Lightning2
*Life
 Supersonic
*Luminaire

Cyclone
2 MPs
Non-Elemental Physical Attack
Strikes all enemies in the target enemy's immediate area.
Damage = Damage x 1.25

*Lightning
2 MPs
Lightning Element Magic
Strikes one enemy.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 5

Slash
4 MPs
Lightning Element Physical Attack
Strikes all enemies on a line.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 5

Twister
6 MPs
Non-Elemental Physical Attack
Strikes all enemies in the immediate area of the target enemy.
Damage = Damage x 1.75
[replaces Spincut]

*Lightning 2
8 MPs
Lightning Element Magic
Strikes all enemies.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 5.75

*Life
10 MPs
Curative
Restores one ally at 0 HPs to life.
Restoration = Magic x 10

Supersonic
15 MPs
Non-Elemental Physical Attack
Strikes one enemy five times.
Total Damage = (Damage x 0.75) x 5
[replaces Confuse]

*Luminaire
20 MPs
Lightning Element Magic
Strikes all enemies
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 18

CRONO NOTES:  Twister is slightly less powerful than Spincut, but potentially hits more enemies.  Supersonic hits more times than Confuse, but the damage done per hit is slightly less.  Advancing from Confuse's four attacks to Supersonic's five (as well as the change from Spincut to Twister) is intended to show that Crono has improved as a swordsman, although, in strict gameplay terms, there is virtually no change in the actual damage done.  Overall, Crono's play style is unchanged, and this seems appropriate for the main character.



MARLE

Water (Ice)

Bow

primary healing

Single Techs:
 Aura
*Ice
 Charm
*Haste
*Ice 2
*Cure 2
*Life 2
*QuantmStat

Aura
1 MP
Curative
Restores HPs for one ally.
Restoration = Magic x 5

*Ice
2 MPs
Water Element Magic
Strikes one enemy.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 5

Charm
4 MPs
Support Ability
Attempts to steal an item from an enemy.
[replaces Provoke]

*Haste
6 MPs
Support Ability
Grants "Haste" status to one ally.

*Ice 2
8 MPs
Water Element Magic
Strikes all enemies.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 5.75

*Cure 2
5 MPs
Curative
Restores HPs for one ally.
Restoration = Magic x 25

*Life 2
15 MPs
Curative
Restores one ally at 0 HPs to life.
Restoration = [maximum HPs]

*QuantmStat
20 MPs
Water Element Magic
Strikes all enemies.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 21

[loses *Cure]

MARLE NOTES:  The game would not be complete without Charm, Trigger's one stealing ability, and since Ayla is now out of action, Marle is the obvious choice to get it (since she was half of Twin Charm, a Dual Tech with Ayla).  The inclusion of *QuantmStat, an ultimate magic, will hopefully negate any perceived obsolescence on Marle's part in later stages or in New Game +.



LUCCA

Fire

Gun

primary magical attack

Single Techs:
 Hypno Wave
*Fire
 Sniper Shot
*Protect
*Fire 2
 GreenMemory
 Wonder Bomb
*Flare

Hypno Wave
1 MP
Support Ability
Attempts to inflict "Sleep" status on all enemies.

*Fire
2 MPs
Fire Element Magic
Strikes one enemy.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 5

Sniper Shot
4 MPs
Non-Elemental Physical Attack
Strikes one enemy.
Damage = Damage x 2
[replaces Flame Toss]

*Protect
6 MPs
Support Ability
Grants "Protect" status to one ally.

*Fire 2
8 MPs
Fire Element Magic
Strikes all enemies.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 5.75

GreenMemory
12 MPs
Curative
Automatically restores target ally to life when target ally reaches 0 HPs (once per casting).
Restoration = Magic x 5

Wonder Bomb
15 MPs
Non-Elemental Physical Attack
Strikes all enemies.
Damage increases as caster's HPs decrease.
[replaces Mega Bomb]

*Flare
20 MPs
Fire Element Magic
Strikes all enemies.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 19

[loses Napalm]

LUCCA NOTES:  Lucca is still primarily an attack mage, but she is also more of a support character.  Her old non-magical Fire attacks are gone, but these were largely superfluous anyway.  GreenMemory struck me as an appropriate choice for Lucca, especially since her GreenDream accessory will presumably be lost during the temporal distortion.  WonderBomb is the successor to Ayla's old Dino Tail.  Lucca seemed like the most appropriate choice to get an ability of this type, since she would know how such abilities work from Frog Flare, her old Dual Tech with Frog's FrogSquash.  (I mean, it seemed to me that if Trigger had two desperation attacks, Crimson Echoes should, too.)



ROBO

Shadow

Arm

jack-of-all-trades

Single Techs:
 Uzzi Punch
 Cure Beam
 Absolute 0
 Thermonuke
 Heal Beam
 Strong Arm
 Megavolt
 Ultraviolet

Uzzi Punch
1 MP
Non-Elemental Physical Attack
Strikes one enemy.
Damage = Damage x 1.5
[replaces RocketPunch]

Cure Beam
2 MPs
Curative
Restores HPs for one ally.
Restoration = Magic x 10

Absolute 0
4 MPs
Water Element Physical Attack
Strikes all enemies.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 4
[replaces Laser Spin]

Thermonuke
6 MPs
Fire Element Physical Attack
Strikes all enemies in the target enemy's immediate area.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 6

Heal Beam
4 MPs
Curative
Restores HPs for all allies.
Restoration = Magic x 15

Strong Arm
12 MPs
Non-Elemental Physical Attack
Strikes one enemy.
Damage = Damage x 3
[replaces Uzzi Punch (Trigger's version)]

Megavolt
15 MPs
Lightning Element Physical Attack
Strikes all enemies in the caster's immediate area.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 12
[replaces Area Bomb]

Ultraviolet
20 MPs
Shadow Element Physical Attack
Strikes all enemies.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 17
[replaces Shock]

[loses Robo Tackle]

ROBO NOTES:  Robo is even more of a well-rounded character than he was before, having healing, physical attacks, and elemental attacks of each type.  Since Robo is basically a Shadow character, it seemed appropriate for his ultimate elemental attack to be Shadow, rather than Lightning or one of the others.  Strong Arm was included as a reference to Cross.  (Besides, I couldn't think of a better name for the next step up from Uzzi Punch.)



MAGUS

Shadow

Scythe

ultimate magical attack

Single Techs:
*Lightning2
*Ice 2
*Fire 2
*Dark Bomb
*Stop
*Dark Mist
*Black Hole
*DarkMatter

*Lightning 2
8 MPs
Lightning Element Magic
Strikes all enemies.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 5.75

*Ice 2
8 MPs
Water Element Magic
Strikes all enemies.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 5.75

*Fire 2
8 MPs
Fire Element Magic
Strikes all enemies.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 5.75

*Dark Bomb
6 MPs
Shadow Element Magic
Strikes all enemies in the target's immediate area.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 7.5

*Stop
6 MPs
Support Ability
Attempts to inflict "Stop" status on one enemy.

*Dark Mist
10 MPs
Shadow Element Magic
Strikes all enemies.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 10

*Black Hole
15 MPs
Support Ability
Attempts to cause instant death to all enemies in the caster's immediate area.

*DarkMatter
20 MPs
Shadow Element Magic
Strikes all enemies.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 20

[loses *Magic Wall]

MAGUS NOTES:  There was little room to change Magus's spell lineup, because he simply must have all of his Techs, except arguably for *Magic Wall.  I took out *Magic Wall and gave it to someone else because Magus is simply not a support character.  His new Tech, *Stop, while still a support ability, is of a much more attack-oriented nature.



SCHALA

Lightning

Pendant

primary support

Single Techs:
*Cure
*Chant
*Slow
*Holy
*Remedy
*Magic Wall
*Heal 2
*Ultima

*Cure
2 MPs
Curative
Restores HPs for one ally.
Restoration = Magic x 15

*Chant
1 MP
Support Ability
Attempts to inflict "Chaos" status on all enemies.

*Slow
1 MP
Support Ability
Attempts to inflict "Slow" status on all enemies.

*Holy
8 MPs
Lightning Element Magic
Strikes all enemies.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 10

*Remedy
4 MPs
Curative
Removes all negative status conditions from all allies.

*Magic Wall
6 MPs
Support Ability
Grants "Shell" status to one ally.

*Heal 2
5 MPs
Curative
Restores HPs for all allies.
Restoration = Magic x 20

*Ultima
20 MPs
Lightning Element Magic
Strikes all enemies
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 22

SCHALA NOTES:  Schala was definitely the most difficult character to plan.  Her role as a support character seemed to be decided early on, but it is difficult to design a support character who will not inevitably become obsolete once her support abilities are no longer needed to survive.  At the same time, there is a temptation to make Schala over-powerful, since she is the character everyone will be very excited to see.  Here is the balance I struck.  First, Schala is the only character to receive a very powerful healing spell early on, and the only one to get the awesome *Heal 2.  All of her support abilities (aside from *Magic Wall, the characteristics of which were already established in Trigger) strike all possible targets, whether they be defensive or offensive.  Lastly, while Schala only learns two outright attacks spells, they are the most powerful in the game.  *Holy hits all enemies at a time when other characters (save Magus) only have spells that hit one enemy, and it will do more damage than anyone else's spells.  Likewise, the damage multiplier in *Ultima is higher than any used in Trigger or elsewhere in Crimson Echoes (22 versus *Luminaire's 20.5 in Trigger or *QuantmStat's 21)--though not by too much, I hope!



GLENN

Water

Sword

ultimate physical attack

Single Techs:
 Leap Cut
*Water
*Heal
 Leap Slash
*Water 2
*FrogPrince
 Nirvana X
*Waterfall

Leap Cut
1 MP
Non-Elemental Physical Attack
Strikes one enemy.
Damage = Damage x 2
[replaces Slurp Cut]

*Water
2 MPs
Water Element Magic
Strikes one enemy.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 5

*Heal
2 MPs
Curative
Restores HPs for all allies.
Restoration = Magic x 10

Leap Slash
4 MPs
Non-Elemental Physical Attack
Strikes one enemy.
Damage = Damage x 3

*Water 2
8 MPs
Water Element Magic
Strikes all enemies.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 5.75

*FrogPrince
15 MPs
Non-Elemental Physical Attack
Strikes all enemies.
Damage increases as caster's HPs decrease.
[replaces FrogSquash]

Nirvana X
15 MPs
Non-Elemental Physical Attack
Strikes one enemy three times.
Total Damage = (Damage x 1.5) x 3

*Waterfall
20 MPs
Water Element Magic
Strikes all enemies.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 16

[loses Slurp and *Cure 2]

GLENN NOTES:  Glenn is basically the new Ayla.  All of his attack Techs have much higher damage multipliers than similar abilities of other characters.  His new ultimate magic spell, *Waterfall, is weak, even compared to Robo's Ultraviolet, but its inclusion should still help to stave off any encroaching obsolescence.  As for healing, Glenn loses the awesome *Cure 2, but if he is to take over Ayla's niche, it doesn't seem appropriate for him to have any mega-healing spells.  (Besides, as things are set up now, three characters have versions of Cure (Marle's *Cure 2, Robo's Cure Beam, Schala's *Cure), three have versions of Heal (Robo's Heal Beam, Schala's *Heal 2, Glenn's *Heal), and three have versions of Life (Crono's *Life, Marle's *Life 2, Lucca's GreenMemory).  This seems like a nice balance.)



OdF

Hadriel

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Proposal: Balancing the Characters
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2005, 05:24:10 pm »
Why not replace Megavolt with some much higher unit, like Teravolt or Exavolt?

Magus' level 2 elementals, IIRC, did more damage in CT than the versions of the spells on non-Shadow characters.

But other than that, that's probably the best Tech list we could want or need.

Daniel Krispin

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Proposal: Balancing the Characters
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2005, 03:52:33 am »
Save for Ultima and Holy. Them being Square cliches from Final Fantasy, I don't know if we should bring these over. Flare is there already, it is true, but the connection to the FFs should be at a minimum: if we make the new techs copies of the FFs it sounds like we ran out ideas, which is certainly not true. Is there not another name one could think of for these? By the way, what was it decided on that Schala's element is? Shadow, if I remember right, which would sit well with me. Now, what other names could there be in place of Holy and Ultima? Even 'Brilliant' or 'Brilliance' I think is better than Holy. As for her ultimate, maybe something connected with Zeal? Or better yet, dreams? Dreamkeeper? Or, I know, the counter of Lavos' infamous Dreamless: Dreamwatch! Hey, I like that! What do you think? Would Dreamwatch be better than Ultima? It connects with that under-used song from Chrono Cross, Time of the Dreamwatch. Anyway, such are my suggestions. Does anyone else feel inclined to give theirs?

Another question, though: dual techs. Does Schala have any with her brother? That would be a mighty union!

Oswego del Fuego

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Proposal: Balancing the Characters
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2005, 02:45:46 pm »
First, I'm glad that you guys basically approve of my proposed Tech list.  I actually worked very hard on it.  :)

Re: Teravolt or Exavolt.  I like Megavolt better, for two reasons.  First, Megavolt is not an "ultimate" ability, so Mega seems sufficient.  Beyond that, though, I wouldn't even know what Tera or Exa meant in this case if not for the context provided, whereas Mega is pretty much universally understood.

Re: Magus's level 2 Techs.  While they were more powerful than those of the others in Trigger, I have lowered them to be merely equal.  However, I think they need to be lowered even more, so that Magus's *Lightning2 has the same damage multiplier as Crono's *Lightning.  Why?  Because Magus joins fairly early, and if his magic is too powerful, you could simply breeze through the enemies by having him cast those spells over and over.  I don't want to weaken Magus, but I also don't want him to be the uber-character when he is just a regular party member this time around, who joins early on at that.

Re: Holy and Ultima.  I agree that the names are a little tired, but I didn't know what else to call them.  I'm open to any suggestions, but I wouldn't feel right in deciding on a name all by myself.  This should be something the group decides as a whole.  Although I will say that I favor the idea of Zeal-related names.  Anyway, Tech names are limited to ten characters (it's actually eleven, but the first character has to be a star, since Schala is a magic user).  Oh, and she's going to be a Lightning user, last I was told.

As for dual techs, I certainly hope she and Magus will have some!  I'm not sure how much will be possible, since I doubt there's a lot of space in the ROM for extra/additional Techs of any sort.  That's a question we'll have to leave to the programming folks.

Thanks for responding, guys!

OdF