Author Topic: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?  (Read 5591 times)

Acacia Sgt

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2421
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2012, 11:01:14 am »
Thing is though, after the party fights Magus and comment about him creating it, Magus then corrects them about him only wanting to summon Lavos.

Though honestly, whether he is telling the truth or not, why bother correcting their assumption of the creation thing then?

And on the other hand, when the party confronts him at the North Cape (I think it was there), his comments heavily imply he had no plans of returning to 12000BC back in 600AD.

Synchronization

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 66
    • View Profile
Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2012, 07:25:49 pm »
1
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 07:17:09 pm by Synchronization »

Lennis

  • Chronopolitan (+300)
  • *
  • Posts: 367
    • View Profile
Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2012, 03:03:23 am »
Just one timeline now that's an interesting idea Lennis.  Have you another summary for Chrono Trigger like the one you gave for Cross?  Also, If I were you I would not let yourself be stifled by this canon concept one way or another, since it is never mentioned in the game at all.

My Chrono Cross summary was meant to reflect canon more than my own ideas.  In this case, I'm trying to redefine canon in a way that makes more sense in a narrative.

I try not to let myself be stifled by convention.  I've already outlined several outright changes to canon in my novel, but in a way that's (I hope) true to the spirit of the source material.  My concern is getting carried away with my own ideas and transforming the story into something no fan of Chrono would accept.  I know some people treat canon like the Bible.

Satoh

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Magical Dreamer (+1250)
  • *
  • Posts: 1291
  • Am I your dream... or are you mine...?
    • View Profile
Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2012, 07:06:39 am »
I know some people treat canon like the Bible.

Considering 'canon' refers originally to the founding texts of a religion, on which the tenets are based...It makes sense.

In any case, you say 'why would Magus be trying to summon Lavos for a solo fight, when he knew he'd have no chance'... But he later does just that, and seems quite perturbed that it is ineffective.

ZealKnight

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1067
  • Loyal Knight of the Kingdom of Zeal
    • View Profile
Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2012, 11:18:16 am »
Chrono45, I did some searching in the game scripts. Here's what I found. It is spoken in Medina, 1000 AD (after leaving 65 million BC).

Quote from: NA Translation
[Mystics]
   400 years have passed since Magus
   commanded the Mystics, and waged
   war against the humans.

Quote from: Re-translation
[Demons]
   400 years have passed since Magus-sama led us
   Demons and challenged the humans to war.

To me, they both just sound as if he just took control of a situation. At the very least there was a cold war type air between the two groups. He may have started the war. I don't think he really did, but I mean it's sorta ambiguous and I won't be upset if he did. My only theory really is that he dies against Lavos. I really hope he got sent to the future though.... I'm sorry I keep saying that but can you really blame me? TWO MAGUSES (maguss? magi? I'll stick with maguses) IN CHRONO BRAKE!!!!

It's amazing how much confusion can result from a single plot point that isn't thought out all that well.

The whole problem rests with the assertion that Magus summons, or attempts to summon, Lavos in 600 A.D.  As strong as Magus is, he is no fool.  What could he hope to achieve against Lavos by himself in an age far less advanced from where he originally came?  I would argue that his intention isn't to summon Lavos at all, but to magically reopen the time-portal that sent him to the middle ages in the first place.  Think about it.  He cares about Schala more than anything.  What could he want more than the possibility of going back in time and preventing the destruction of Zeal and saving Schala?  And if he's successful, it would effectively negate the entire 600 A.D. timeline, meaning that all of the evil acts Magus performed to achieve his objective would amount to nothing.  He would know this, so from his point of view the ends would justify the means.

As for Crono and company, my view is that there isn't two versions of history (like in Chrono Cross) but only one.  Everything is interconnected.  Crono was meant to travel through time, discover the ruined future, and journey to Zeal to attempt to stop Lavos.  Janus was meant to be hurled into the future and later return to the past to challenge Lavos.  The first half of the game is essentially one giant pre-destination paradox, one that isn't truly resolved until Crono - who was meant to die - is brought back to life by his friends, thereby creating a reality where it was possible to prevent the Day of Lavos in 1999.

I'm not challenging any of the points people have made in this thread, nor am I challenging what canonically happened in the game.  I'm saying canon itself is flawed and should be reexamined.

I don't really understand what you mean by one timeline. But you did say that Magus wasn't going to fight Lavos, which he seriously did. He fought Lavos on his own. It was literally the first thing he did when he met Lavos as an adult. I guess you're arguing that it's only because he was in 12000BC and he wouldnt do that in 600AD. But I don't think that's entirely likely. Magus is a dick. I love that about him. He thinks he can do it alone. And I root for him because of that. He's arrogant enough to think that he could kill Lavos alone. I think that's what all of us think and like about him. He's like Russel Crowe: if the afterlife and God do exist, they are both the type of person to have the balls to insult God to his face. He was trying to summon Lavos to fight him alone. He was in it for the revenge. I just can't believe Magus would think logically about his past. Personally, I know how revenge, particularly from ruining someones childhood, can cause that someone to throw all logic out the window.

Lennis

  • Chronopolitan (+300)
  • *
  • Posts: 367
    • View Profile
Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2012, 12:20:17 am »
I don't really understand what you mean by one timeline. But you did say that Magus wasn't going to fight Lavos, which he seriously did. He fought Lavos on his own. It was literally the first thing he did when he met Lavos as an adult. I guess you're arguing that it's only because he was in 12000BC and he wouldnt do that in 600AD. But I don't think that's entirely likely. Magus is a dick. I love that about him. He thinks he can do it alone. And I root for him because of that. He's arrogant enough to think that he could kill Lavos alone. I think that's what all of us think and like about him. He's like Russel Crowe: if the afterlife and God do exist, they are both the type of person to have the balls to insult God to his face. He was trying to summon Lavos to fight him alone. He was in it for the revenge. I just can't believe Magus would think logically about his past. Personally, I know how revenge, particularly from ruining someones childhood, can cause that someone to throw all logic out the window.

I apologize for resurrecting an old thread, but I thought I should clarify my idea a bit.  There is a reason why Magus would prefer to fight Lavos in 12,000 B.C.  The Masamune.  Though it exists in a different form in the Zealian era, Magus would think possessing that weapon would give him a greater chance of winning, as he clearly showed in the events that transpired in Zeal.  I would argue that this became his back-up plan after he failed to obtain the Masamune in the middle-ages, thanks to Cyrus and Glenn.  His original plan was to take the more powerful middle-ages Masamune and bring it with him into the past to fight Lavos, thereby gaining revenge and changing his own past.  This would more than likely create a paradox, because changing his own past would effectively negate his victory over Lavos, but as you say, Magus probably isn't thinking that far ahead.  Conversely, perhaps he was conscious of creating a paradox by fighting Lavos in the past, but once the middle-ages Masamune was shattered, fighting Lavos in 600 A.D. was no longer a viable option.

Again, this isn't consistent with the canon script, but I think it is a better way of examining Magus' actions and motives.

Acacia Sgt

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2421
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2012, 10:51:20 am »
Altered from canon or not, this version of events don't sound like something that would make much sense.

Wasn't Magus as the Prophet the one responsible for Melchior being sent to Mt. Woe? If he was planning to use the Masamune why do that when the sword was still incomplete?

Eske

  • Enlightened One (+200)
  • *
  • Posts: 248
    • View Profile
Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2012, 06:28:55 pm »
This is a pretty interesting topic!  =)   Here is my opinion on how the original timeline went, just for funsies:

1.  The Mystics destroy Zenan Bridge (as is mentioned in the game.)
2.  Frog (alone or with Guardia soldiers) saves Queen Leene.
3.  The Mystics ravage the southern continent, creating a desert.
4.  Guardia repairs the bridge.
5.  Ozzie attacks the bridge with soldiers created through necromancy, humans barely hold off/ Ozzie retreats after he deals significant damage.
6.  Magus attempts to summon Lavos through a ritual.  He is successful but creates a giant gate that engulfs his castle
7.  Magus, Ozzie, Flea, Slash, the castle and the army inside are scattered throughout time or doomed to face Lavos. ***
8.  With all command and control gone, the remaining Mystic army collapses.
9.  Those that remain form Medina.
10.  Tensions/grudges remain - some Mystics get over it.

*** If Ozzie was killed he must have had offspring beforehand (same for Yakra, as we see).  If he was sent through time he was probably sent 100-200 years in the future and perhaps founded Medina as a collective. (His offspring is the leader of the Mystics in 1000AD - but that is only Ozzie the VIII and we see that Yakra's offspring is Yakra XIII.   Different lifespan or time travel? who knows.)

      If Magus was sent back to 12000BC as we see in the new timeline - the events of the Ocean Palace would have been different.  Melchior would have been imprisoned on Mt. Woe and probably never freed.  The Mammon Machine would never have been overloaded by the Ruby Knife, so Lavos probably awoke sometime later, when much more of its energy had been sapped.  Since the Ocean Palace did not rise to become the Black Omen, the Queen would not have been in the Ocean Palace at the time of Lavos's awakening in this timeline - she would have died in the attack/survived and integrated with the Earthbound Ones eventually.

That's my take on it.

Lennis

  • Chronopolitan (+300)
  • *
  • Posts: 367
    • View Profile
Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2012, 09:18:54 pm »
Wasn't Magus as the Prophet the one responsible for Melchior being sent to Mt. Woe? If he was planning to use the Masamune why do that when the sword was still incomplete?

Hmmm...  I don't remember Magus having anything to do with Melchior's imprisonment, but then, it's been awhile since I played through that part of CT.  In any case, I handle the subject of Melchior's imprisonment differently, as I have it outlined for my novel project.

EgyLynx

  • Enlightened One (+200)
  • *
  • Posts: 290
    • View Profile
Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #54 on: August 24, 2012, 03:22:49 pm »
 :oops:

are or arent... thats is q...


Mr Bekkler

  • Bounty Hunter
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2699
  • So it goes.
    • View Profile
Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2012, 03:56:37 pm »
:oops:

are or arent... thats is q...



What? I don't understand what you're trying to say.

ZealKnight

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1067
  • Loyal Knight of the Kingdom of Zeal
    • View Profile
Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2012, 12:37:44 am »
I don't think Magus really cared to much for the Masamune. If I remember correctly he was surprised how strong it became. If it wasn't strong enough to worry him then why want it? Plus he assumed it was destroyed. (I think)

EgyLynx

  • Enlightened One (+200)
  • *
  • Posts: 290
    • View Profile
Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2012, 09:25:03 am »
... or how well Glen at it...

ZealKnight

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1067
  • Loyal Knight of the Kingdom of Zeal
    • View Profile
Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2012, 05:45:32 am »
Altered from canon or not, this version of events don't sound like something that would make much sense.

Wasn't Magus as the Prophet the one responsible for Melchior being sent to Mt. Woe? If he was planning to use the Masamune why do that when the sword was still incomplete?

Let's assume he knew the sword wouldn't be complete in time and let's assume he had no idea Melchior created the sword. I mean... do we know how the Masamune was created in the original timeline? Chrono isn't there to thrust it into the Mamon Machine, and we have no other hints right now. At least not in this thread

Acacia Sgt

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2421
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2012, 11:31:07 am »
What relevance does it has the way the sword was created? Whether or not it could be completed by external sources the way Crono did when it thrust it at the Mammon Machine?

Well, at the very least, an influx of contact with Dreamstone seems like a possible method, considering the Mammon Machine thing. But wasn't at the same already activated and drawing in Lavos's energy? Perhaps that also had a hand.