Author Topic: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?  (Read 11149 times)

Acacia Sgt

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2012, 12:36:15 pm »
It can work just fine if it's ambiguous enough.

However, the events of the first trip to 600AD don't really offer, if any, things that could've potentially change Heckran's dialogue.

Considering that in the original time line Leene was still rescued and the summoning still failed in the eyes of the Mystics. The Cathedral incident was isolated, pretty much never left North Zenan. What hints to conjecture that it could've affected Magus's judgement, who is all the way at his castle?

ZealKnight

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2012, 01:44:39 pm »
Why are we arguing about Hekran, Can't we all agree that Magus was going to summon Lavos either way cathedral or not. We know enough about Magus to know he was gonna summon Lavos eventually and didn't care about the mystics at all.

Prince Janus

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2012, 04:31:51 pm »
Because nobody paid attention to key components of the original argument and kept misinterpreting it. Did you read it?

Chrono45

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2012, 07:13:16 pm »
Alright, I don't think anyone really misinterpreted anything. we were just arguing the credibility of what Heckran said.
I'm going to give a little recap of the discussion and the evidence that has been provided
The question is what was magus' fate in the unaffected timeline? So far the theorys are...

1. He summons Lavos and lavos Kills him in some fashion. The idea here is that without being interrupted by Crono&co he was able to successful summon Lavos whom then proceeded to kill him. The evidence for this is basically that Guardia stands in all its glory in 1000 a.d. If magus would have continued this war, he most likely would have easily over-run Guardia at some point. This is because Cyrus, their best knight, had already been defeated, along with their second best, Glenn. The masamune was destroyed and from the general setting in Guardia the war looked very grim while the setting down in "mysticville" TM was looking quite promising (in its own undead way). However, you don't experience any of the mystics south of Zenan bridge until you have potentially changed the timeline due to such a thing as chaos theory which will be discussed later. During your second trip their, Zenan bridge is rebuilt and the mystics are then breaking through, possibly lending to the evidence that without Crono&co they would have stormed Guardia pretty quickly after that. However, one thing to consider, every time we see Lavos pop up from his underearth home he generally reeks quite a bit of havoc (blowing up worlds and what not). So if he were to be summoned, one might think the world would have known about it.

2. Magus Summons Lavos, but like with Crono&co is warped to a different time period. This theory can be viewed in two different ways one he summons Lavos and for what ever reason it is Lavos warps him, or that his summon failed in some way and that results in his warp. The same thing that happened in the Crono line is what is being theorized here though. This follows basically the same evidence as the previous theory except for the fact that he does not die. One might think that if Magus was warped to another time period that he would have had an effect on the time period as well (evidence of this was his ability to throw all of 600 ad into chaos in a few years probably 10-20). Since we never notice him, or anything that may have been a result of him in another period, we could probably assume he wasn't warped within the Chrono timeline. If he was though, it would have probably been somewhere in between 65 million bc and 12,000 bc statistically speaking (its a much larger time frame) and logically speaking since the world would have had millions of years to hide the effects of any mischief caused by magus. Although, there is the second magus we encounter in the ds version, could this be that magus? Please keep the time travelers immunity theory in mind.

3. Magus doesn't summon Lavos and either dies of old age (very ultra unlikely) or is sacked by Guardia before he is able to summon Lavos. The idea here is that without the disturbances of Crono&co in the timeline Magus would have laid back and mayhaps prepared more for his fight with Lavos (although why if he thought he could kill Lavos in the Crono timeline but be worried about Crono&co is beyond me). However, many people believe this to be unlikely since Magus has devoted his life to defeating Lavos. Also, it might be added that the disturbances to the original timeline up to Zenan Bridge were quite minor, so the effects that those had on the original were probably minor as well. How would have Guardia even taken his keep, this to me is a very unlikely situation because of  the state Guardia is in until Crono comes to the rescue.

So those are basically the theory's, there is little evidence from npc's that talk about the summoning. Most say something to the effect of "If only magus would have summoned the Lavos back in 600ad etc..." The two instances that I found of this in the ds version are from Heckran and from the mystics dancing around the Magus statue in medina square. Other than that I was not able to find any other mentions (and I was pretty thorough about it too). That being said I will still have to go through the SNES version and see what if anything was different.

Also two things to keep in mind is the Time Travelers immunity theory, I believe the compendium has a page on it so I won't go into it, but it relates to magus being warped in the second theory. Second, anything that happened in 600 a.d. after your first visit their may have been compromised. so any npc's from that point on may have had reacted differently had you never went to 600ad. This is partly taken from the idea of chaos theory which a quick google search will inform you about.

If I missed anything or made any mistakes make sure you correct me! and I know you will  :wink:

edit: Ha, already saw I forgot something. It was also hypothesized that if magus was warped from his summoning of Lavos that his chamber would have been more or less intact. This would have given the illusion that Magus just "took off" and didn't summon Lavos. So the mystics coming upon this would have marked it down in history as him not summoning Lavos.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 07:16:38 pm by Chrono45 »

Mr Bekkler

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2012, 07:31:36 pm »
That sums it up very well, Chrono45. We haven't skipped, forgotten, or misinterpreted anything. However we do seem to be at a standstill with the three possibilities.

Prince Janus

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2012, 10:50:57 pm »
 It's alright. It was a single possible theory that got blonw up because of a complicated series of things going on in it that someone missed.

TheMage

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2012, 01:07:13 pm »
I too think number three is highly unlikely. There's no way Magus was defeated by Guardia or that he just gave up. MAYBE Frog defeated him, and that's a big maybe because it'd have to be without the Masamune and Frog had given up hope. Besides if a single person had ended the war they'd be remembered even in 1000 A.D. The NPCs don't say much just that one kid that says, "What's the big deal? So what if we won a war against a wizard hundreds of years ago?"

It's hard to tell seeing as the first trip could have started a chain reaction but Guardia was doomed. with out Crono and company the mystics should have swarmed and gotten past the bridge. With Magus's armies swarming Guardia Magus may have started the summoning. He'd be alone and undisturbed. Once he disappeared and word got to the mystics well with out a leader things kind of fall apart.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2012, 03:40:08 pm »
An astute and practical piece of reasoning. Thanks Mage :)

ZealKnight

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2012, 07:52:09 pm »
Magus doesn't HAVE to appear in the timeline before 12000 BC. Keep in mind two things: 1) we know nothing of the future after 1999 is that the world is being over run by robots that are attacking humans, and the world has been destroyed. Some humans lived through Lavos and others out lived the robots 2) Magus didn't start the mystic war. At least, we have no proof he did. Rather he took advantage of a situation. (that's what I always thought at least)

Chrono45

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2012, 09:22:46 pm »
I didn't say he HAD to. In fact, if you would go back and read,  I said it was more than likely that he did not get warped to the Chrono timeline, between 65 million and 2300. But that he got warped to some era before, after, or something else. I would say that the mystics and the humans were already in tension before Magus' arrival. However, they were not organized and therefore were of little threat. Magus was able to rally them together and centralize there operations out of his keep. I believe this is the truth because during the cut scene of Janus being warped to 600 a.d. he was met by Ozzie and some other imps randomly in the forest. Why was Ozzie in the forest? probably because that was how they lived up until magus organized them.

ZealKnight

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2012, 10:16:42 pm »
That's a little too presumptuous don't you think? Oh well, point is, it is entirely possible that he exists in the timeline after 1999 AD. (And then in chrono brake he is the new dictator of the world!!!! ^__^)

utunnels

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2012, 10:33:18 pm »
Quote from: Chrono45
But that he got warped to some era before, after, or something else.
I can't stop thinking about how he was warped to 46000000000 BC and died in magma, or more ridiculous, to 50000000000 AD and joined the red giant.

 :lol:

Chrono45

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2012, 11:30:59 am »
Haha, I think it is explicitly presumptuous, but I am going to look into that one more. There may possibly be an npc somewhere that says Magus started the war or something. I am not really sure of Magus' age either but I was under the assumption he was like 30-40. Taking that low end of 30 and assuming he was around 10 years old when he got warped that would mean the war (if it had started before he got there) would have had to be going on for about 20 years. Their arn't many wars that have lasted longer than 20 years, especially with active conflict for a constant 20 years. So again, I think it is more than likely that he either started or "refueled" the war.  Obviously everything in this statement is an assumption his age the length of the war all that jazz... but what else do we have to go on but logical conclusion.

Kodokami

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2012, 12:48:12 pm »
Chrono45, I did some searching in the game scripts. Here's what I found. It is spoken in Medina, 1000 AD (after leaving 65 million BC).

Quote from: NA Translation
[Mystics]
   400 years have passed since Magus
   commanded the Mystics, and waged
   war against the humans.

Quote from: Re-translation
[Demons]
   400 years have passed since Magus-sama led us
   Demons and challenged the humans to war.

Lennis

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2012, 05:37:07 am »
It's amazing how much confusion can result from a single plot point that isn't thought out all that well.

The whole problem rests with the assertion that Magus summons, or attempts to summon, Lavos in 600 A.D.  As strong as Magus is, he is no fool.  What could he hope to achieve against Lavos by himself in an age far less advanced from where he originally came?  I would argue that his intention isn't to summon Lavos at all, but to magically reopen the time-portal that sent him to the middle ages in the first place.  Think about it.  He cares about Schala more than anything.  What could he want more than the possibility of going back in time and preventing the destruction of Zeal and saving Schala?  And if he's successful, it would effectively negate the entire 600 A.D. timeline, meaning that all of the evil acts Magus performed to achieve his objective would amount to nothing.  He would know this, so from his point of view the ends would justify the means.

As for Crono and company, my view is that there isn't two versions of history (like in Chrono Cross) but only one.  Everything is interconnected.  Crono was meant to travel through time, discover the ruined future, and journey to Zeal to attempt to stop Lavos.  Janus was meant to be hurled into the future and later return to the past to challenge Lavos.  The first half of the game is essentially one giant pre-destination paradox, one that isn't truly resolved until Crono - who was meant to die - is brought back to life by his friends, thereby creating a reality where it was possible to prevent the Day of Lavos in 1999.

I'm not challenging any of the points people have made in this thread, nor am I challenging what canonically happened in the game.  I'm saying canon itself is flawed and should be reexamined.