Author Topic: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?  (Read 11186 times)

Chrono45

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What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« on: April 05, 2012, 11:38:47 am »
What happened to magus in the original timeline? In a previous topic what magus' fate ending up being before Crono&co came into the picture keeps coming up so I thought I would make it, it's own topic. So far it's either thought that magus was successful in summoning lavos and was either destroyed by Lavos or was teleported much like Crono&co after the battle with magus. It could also be that Frog sought Magus out and killed him. If you will remember one of the endings had frog killing Magus on his own, but this was already with a tampered timeline.

So, I personally believe that instead of dying to lavos, which seems to be the most common belief, is that magus was actually teleported to a different timeline possibly back to 12,000 bc. I figure why would Lavos kill him this time instead of teleporting him like the other time. But one also might think magus was unable to completely summon him because of the interference so some sort of temporal anomaly resulted. Since Crono&co did not run in a make a muk of things, he may have been able to summon him properly and was then promptly eaten. Any other theory's and especially evidence to what happened to Magus would be a great help!

Prince Janus

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2012, 07:16:04 pm »
 While there is no doubt in my mind that Magus intended to confront Lavos someday, neither is there concrete evidence that he originally even got the opportunity to begin. It can only be assumed. It is entirely possible that the interference of Crono caused Magus to summon Lavos sooner. (potential original theory: Frog successfully saves Leene, but dies unhumbled in a battle soon after. Magus, as evidenced in game, is well aware of who Frog is and decides, with his archnemesis out of the way, the mystics earned a breather, thus does not summon Lavos as soon as he would. Is possibly defeated before he even gets the chance.)


 Your first and second visit to 600 AD vary drastically. on the first visit, there are more soldiers and just... talk. Talk of mystics, talk of guardia, who is doing what....    On your second visit, there are far less soldiers in the towns. Most of what you do see are wounded or dying. Also, the banter has become much more fearful. One of the townspeople (I believe) even tells you that they know Magus is preparing to wipe them out with "some sort of ultimate weapon", which is undoubtedly referring to his summoning Lavos.

  Nobody mentions this during your first visit to 600 AD, and nobody at the fairgrounds at 1000 AD ever went into specifics to begin with, so not much help there.

  I will give you this interesting bit of information though: The townspeople of 600 AD are aware that Magus was not killed when Crono and party stormed his castle and directly interfered. 

Acacia Sgt

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2012, 12:58:53 am »
(potential original theory: Frog successfully saves Leene, but dies unhumbled in a battle soon after. Magus, as evidenced in game, is well aware of who Frog is and decides, with his archnemesis out of the way, the mystics earned a breather, thus does not summon Lavos as soon as he would. Is possibly defeated before he even gets the chance.)

Though, considering that the Masamune is broken in half, no matter what happened to Frog, it wouldn't impact much to Magus since it doesn't gets repaired until more Time Travels are done. I think it's more probable he managed to properly summon him, due to no interruptions, and whatever happened to him, it definitely sent him off the radar.

Though, I believe Heckran does mention something on the lines of 'If only Magus had been successful in summoning Lavos 400 years ago'. Though perhaps, due to the nature of the summoning and the fact that just like with Crono and co.'s interference the room was left as if nothing happened afterwards, they just thought the summoning failed. At least, that's what I think.

Your first and second visit to 600 AD vary drastically. on the first visit, there are more soldiers and just... talk. Talk of mystics, talk of guardia, who is doing what....    On your second visit, there are far less soldiers in the towns. Most of what you do see are wounded or dying. Also, the banter has become much more fearful. One of the townspeople (I believe) even tells you that they know Magus is preparing to wipe them out with "some sort of ultimate weapon", which is undoubtedly referring to his summoning Lavos.

Nobody mentions this during your first visit to 600 AD, and nobody at the fairgrounds at 1000 AD ever went into specifics to begin with, so not much help there.

Well, during the first visit to 600 AD, there was more emphasis on Lenne's disappearance. Maybe even the Mystics were also taking a backseat on active war to the kidnapping plot. And once that failed, they probably went: 'Well, that failed, time to do it the old fashioned way'.

To be honest, for much emphasis being done on holding Zenan Bridge during the second visit, the fact there were Mystics at the Cathedral seems a bit off. Though perhaps not so much if it was a plan of sneaking in and try to strike from within.

Chrono45

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2012, 01:12:27 am »
I wouldn't say there isn't any evidence, there may be some indirect evidence that you may be able to get from towns folk before you travel back in time for the first time. I plan on playing through here again (on the ds and snes in case their are some differences) in response to all of these questions that have popped up over magus. I plan on marking down any comments from villagers who maybe referring to magus and his schemes.

I completely forgot heckran said that! Um... But maybe he did fail. Is what happened with crono&co failing, that being getting warped to random eras? If so maybe he was trying to summon lavos in some fashion but failed in some manner and just got warped. I mean, he disappears from something.

anyways, I wouldn't really call frog magus' arch enemy. I think magus thinks frog more of a joke, which is probably the reason he turned him into a frog. I'm pretty sure magus thought he was pretty uncontested after easily dispatching Cyrus, Guardia's best knight. And I can't really see Guardia taking him down either without Crono they were already losing the zenan bridge, like i said before magus killed guardia's best knight. From the looks of it Magus was winning and going to win the war till Crono stomped everyone into the ground.

I wont say that Crono's appearance didn't alter magus' plan, but I think that it had very little effect on it if any. Magus' whole theme was vengeance, I don't think he would hold off on his core characteristic because he felt more safe or something to that effect.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2012, 01:36:40 am »
Well, one thing for certain that happens no matter the version, is that after the summoning, Magus disappears from 600AD. Whether being sent to another time or outright killed, once word spreads the humans manage to turn the tide of the war and becomes the victors.

Crono and co.'s interference, whether it actually interrupted the ritual or not, did had an important impact: Magus now had to fight them instead of saving that energy for killing Lavos. What I think is, that without interruptions, Magus attempted to fight, which probably lead to Lavos killing him then. Interrupted and enduring being struck by the Masamune and the like, Magus wasn't in shape to do so, so that's why Lavos probably just sent the to different eras since no actual hostility presented itself towards it.

Also notice how despite Lavos being called forth, only a giant gate was opened. It's probable that it wasn't really Lavos being called to 600AD but instead Magus just opening a gate to it's dwelling. Hence why once everything was said and done, in both version it's just a matter of the gate being closed, so to someone who were to stumble into the room afterwards, nothing would seem out of the ordinary. Hence, why one could think the whole thing failed. It just left no evidence to suggest it did, hence it's the assumption they'd most likely jump to.

Prince Janus

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2012, 12:22:02 pm »
Regarding the Heckran:

By the time you encounter Heckran, you have already contaminated 600 AD with changes to history. They're already going on the alternate path, as soon as you return to 1000 AD from your original trip to save Marle. Heckran is not a clue to original 600 AD.


 
  Here is what is known of the original Timeline

- Magus did not win the war
- Mystics lost on a bitter note and still hate people.
- Queen Leene was captured, but rescued by Frog, though he remained anonymous due to his
appearance.
- No Justice and Incarceration system was firmly established.

  Here is what is not known of the original Timeline

- If Magus was killed or sent somewhere else
- What became of Frog
- what happened to the masamune
- When Zenan bridge was repaired
- If the mystics had even attacked there or advanced that far
- If there were entirely different casualties on both sides than what you witnessed.


   There are a lot of things about 600 AD That could have been changed simply by Marle, Crono, and Lucca showing up in it.

Prince Janus

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2012, 12:25:27 pm »
I wouldn't say there isn't any evidence, there may be some indirect evidence that you may be able to get from towns folk before you travel back in time for the first time. I plan on playing through here again (on the ds and snes in case their are some differences) in response to all of these questions that have popped up over magus. I plan on marking down any comments from villagers who maybe referring to magus and his schemes.

I already did. All they do is mention that Magus was their enemy, and that they (humans) won the war.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2012, 12:59:39 pm »
Regarding the Heckran:

By the time you encounter Heckran, you have already contaminated 600 AD with changes to history. They're already going on the alternate path, as soon as you return to 1000 AD from your original trip to save Marle. Heckran is not a clue to original 600 AD.

The thing is though, that the first visit to 600AD had nothing to do with Heckran's comments. They never left North Zenan, the Masamune wasn't repaired, etc. So whatever happened at Magus's Castle in the original time line is highly likely to have been outright the same things that happened in this new 600AD with Crono, Lucca, and Marle involved in the Cathedral events, up until they came back with a repaired Masamune and then they finally stepped into the Mystic Continent.

ZealKnight

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2012, 02:26:16 pm »
I would like to think the mystic war wasn't really a victory in the real timeline. Here's my logic:

If I remember correctly before the bridge battle with ozzie, the bridge is destroyed in 1000AD. And after the bridge is still there. The bridge's repair after the first raid is finished right after you complete the first visit to 600AD. In the battle with Ozzie before you show up, the Knights of the Square Table are dying left and right. Perhaps in a last resort to protect the kingdom, the KotS destroy the bridge. This would cut off the Mystic's advance. The only other mystics to be known in North Zenan Continent seem to be the ones near the gate and the ones the Yarka brought with him. (You could assuming they all belong to Yarka, although it really doesn't matter) This destruction of the Bridge could be seen as a "victory" as it protected the kingdom from the mystic's advance.

Regarding the Masamune, Cyrus's battle with Magus is what destroyed it. That's why Glenn had a piece and the other was in the mountain. This happens before the timeline is corrupted. So it should still remain.

As for Magus, it boils down to this. Does he still have a reason to still summon Lavos? He obviously lied to the Mystics by saying it was his weapon to destroy the humans. Heckran and Ozzie both seem to confirm this. However the question remains how long is it between the battle with ozzie on the bridge and Magus's lair. It would have to be quite a bit because you have to fix the Masamune first. Although this could be kinda unimportant if you consider the tampering with timeline, but I'm going to use this as a starting point at least. There is a decent amount of time between the battle with Ozzie and the day of the raid on magus's lair. It's possible that in the real timeline the mystics got rowdy and refused to give him a chance to "create" Lavos. He then lives out his life and dies as the Mystic Sultan. Then there's option 2 he tries to summon Lavos, and instead get's pulled into his pocket dimension to die. Option 3, he fails to summon Lavos and gets transported somewhere else in time. (I personally LOVE this option because this leaves the room for TTI to have be anywhere in the timeline, can you cay Chrono Brake!? OH AND THEN THERE IS THE SECOND MAGUS FROM DS!!!!!!) Then there is the terribly improbable option 4, he summons Lavos and Lavos rises to the surface to kill him.

Option 1,2, and 3 are the only real likely ones, but I'd only like to accept 2. This would explain why there is no record of any further raids and why Heckran made a reference to Lavos. Option 1 and 3 are still possibilities but they assume too much in my opinion. Option 1 is possible as nothing is really known of Magus before any timeline interference, so for all we know Magus never dies in the original timeline. Option 3 is possible because there is no reference to Lavos before any timeline interference.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2012, 02:54:29 pm »
Well, there is another possibility to consider. Since when Magus began this summoning plans, to the point the news could reach the humans? Not to mention, during the first visit you're stuck on North Zenan. At that point they're basically isolated from the rest of the continent. Maybe word of it did reach the humans, but had yet to reach Guardia and Truce due to the bridge being broken, hence why you don't hear of Lavos firs time through.

In any case, in the early game, considering how regretful the Mystics of 1000AD are that Magus didn't wiped the humans, I don't think they wouldn't have allowed Magus to summon Lavos. Especially with the bridge broken meaning they couldn't pass to do it themselves. So I think we can discard Option 1. Unless, it was something they came to regret over the years, but the dialogue doesn't suggest it's that case.

ZealKnight

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2012, 04:47:26 pm »
Well Option 1 was more of they demanded immediate action.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2012, 04:55:03 pm »
If I remember correctly before the bridge battle with ozzie, the bridge is destroyed in 1000AD. And after the bridge is still there. The bridge's repair after the first raid is finished right after you complete the first visit to 600AD. In the battle with Ozzie before you show up, the Knights of the Square Table are dying left and right. Perhaps in a last resort to protect the kingdom, the KotS destroy the bridge. This would cut off the Mystic's advance. The only other mystics to be known in North Zenan Continent seem to be the ones near the gate and the ones the Yarka brought with him. (You could assuming they all belong to Yarka, although it really doesn't matter) This destruction of the Bridge could be seen as a "victory" as it protected the kingdom from the mystic's advance.

Na the bridge always exists in 1000AD. You can visit Medina, Choras, and Porre all before even going to the Millenial Fair actually.


As for your Magus ideas, option 2 is the most likely I agree but option 3 is more fun and open :-)

Prince Janus

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2012, 12:35:24 pm »
Regarding the Heckran:

By the time you encounter Heckran, you have already contaminated 600 AD with changes to history. They're already going on the alternate path, as soon as you return to 1000 AD from your original trip to save Marle. Heckran is not a clue to original 600 AD.

The thing is though, that the first visit to 600AD had nothing to do with Heckran's comments. They never left North Zenan, the Masamune wasn't repaired, etc. So whatever happened at Magus's Castle in the original time line is highly likely to have been outright the same things that happened in this new 600AD with Crono, Lucca, and Marle involved in the Cathedral events, up until they came back with a repaired Masamune and then they finally stepped into the Mystic Continent.

Read my original post, I really can't keep repeating it over and over

Mr Bekkler

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2012, 02:23:32 pm »
Repeating what in the post, exactly? I'm sorry, that just seems like a lazy way to dismiss Acacia's point (and not a good way to convince someone you're correct).

Quote
Read my original post

He did. We all did, that's how we got to the bottom of the page. What new information is in there now that would change the discussion? I read the entire thread again and I disagree with you that Heckran's comments about Magus were somehow not a clue to the original uninterrupted timeline. Acacia presented perfectly clear and valid evidence to dispute your claim and I feel like you dismissed it as though he's an idiot or something.
:(

Quote
I really can't keep repeating it over and over

You haven't really repeated anything. Can you instead try reiterating, saying it in a new way til you're understood, using different words, maybe while emphasizing a certain point instead of referencing three whole paragraphs from a previous post.

No offense, but I just don't understand (based on what you've typed) what you disagree with specifically from Acacia's post and why it would take more effort to explain than it did to say that you can't put forth the effort to clarify what you mean. Just seems a little contradictory. Again, no offense intended.

Prince Janus

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2012, 01:00:03 am »
 I have repeated that the encounter with Heckran occurs in a 1000 AD that has already been corrupted. When my theory was first mentioned (which included Heckran in consideration) it was debunked on the grounds that "but Heckran says..."        

  So I bring up Heckran again, foregoing the other details of the first post and focusing specifically on this one.

  Someone else has argument with it which ignores everything ELSE about the first post.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 01:02:43 am by Captain B »