Author Topic: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?  (Read 11211 times)

Acacia Sgt

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2012, 01:33:37 am »
I have repeated that the encounter with Heckran occurs in a 1000 AD that has already been corrupted. When my theory was first mentioned (which included Heckran in consideration) it was debunked on the grounds that "but Heckran says..."        

  So I bring up Heckran again, foregoing the other details of the first post and focusing specifically on this one.

  Someone else has argument with it which ignores everything ELSE about the first post.

So I ask you, just because 1000AD changed, does it means ALL of it changed?

Heckran's dialogue is not related at all to the Cathedral incident, the only thing about 600AD that got changed.

Heckran's dialogue is about the summoning. Nothing in the first trip on 600AD changed anything related to it. Again, the Masamune remained broken. And due to the nature of needing further time traveling to repair it, it remained that way in the new time line created after Crono and co.'s meddling on the Cathedral incident but before they revisit to retrieve the pieces.

There is no way Heckran's dialogue could've been affected by the changes. The summoning still happened the same way it did in the original since nothing related to it was changed.

Chrono45

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2012, 07:16:16 am »
I certainly wouldn't say in "no way" could it have changed, but I agree that it is unlikely that the events of the first trip to 600ad would have influenced Heckrans thoughts at the moment. However, I believe what this gentlemen is trying to say, is that certain events may cause a type of chain reaction that can lead to larger changes. Many people know this idea as the chaos theory. If you are unfamiliar with it a quick google will inform you of its basic functions. This theory implies an almost untraceable chain of events that can lead from a very small change to enormous consequences. This is actually used in many plots of time travel, a traveler will travel back in time and do something very insignificant like cut a tree down. Then upon return to his or her time period they find a forest to be missing. Their is no way of knowing whether or not Crono could have influenced Heckran's life or not. But I tell you this their are no absolutes in time travel.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2012, 10:20:54 am »
Chaos theory would explain why one piece of evidence is useless and would open up a whole other can of worms as well. If subtle changes in the Chronoverse had such effects, we'd see them. But they don't. Everything turns out the same way in 2300AD until Lavos is destroyed, for example. Even things you can change, like the Porre mayor with the sunstone, or Lucca's mother's accident, are directly affected by the player (and the team). Can you think of literally ANYwhere in the game where it may be shown in action?

The chaos theory is fine for speculation in the real world, but its core rules contradict those of Chrono Trigger (you'd be better off arguing it for Cross, but even then everything was "planned" by Belthasar, illustrating a distinct lack of chaos) to the point that trying to explain one event with said theory is futile and counterproductive.

Prince Janus

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2012, 10:29:03 am »
Quote
So I ask you, just because 1000AD changed, does it means ALL of it changed?

No, not necessarily. However, the Yakra event was significant enough that people in 1000 AD remembered it. It was a major strike by the mystics against the Guardia royal family, and definitely not one of the mystics' finest hours if they were trying to garner sympathy from the player.

Quote
Heckran's dialogue is not related at all to the Cathedral incident, the only thing about 600AD that got changed.

Heckran doesn't mention it. If I don't say anything at all related to Jewish concentration camps, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Again, it's starting to look like I need to repeat what I said before.

Quote
Heckran's dialogue is about the summoning. Nothing in the first trip on 600AD changed anything related to it.

Again, you're missing the point. You never get to see Heckran *before* tampering with 600 AD. For all we know, that could have played out very differently. THAT is my point.




...here, let me put it to you like this.


  Let's pretend for a moment that Lucca's telepod sent Marle (and Crono, and later herself) to 2300 AD instead of 600 AD.  Assuming everything plays out generally normal-like, Gaspar points them to Medina village so they can get home. They've never been in 600 AD before, nor has that period ever encountered them.

  Normally, when you defeat Heckran, he would say "If only the Great Magus, who brought forth Lavos 400 years ago, had destroyed you humans..." In this alternate course of gameplay, he might have said something totally different: "If only Magus had brought forth Lavos when he had the chance... !!!"

  You guys have to understand I'm only claiming as a potential theory, not fact, that the Crono party's interference in 600 AD might have, via a chain reaction of events, caused Magus to get to work on that earlier, and that he originally may have never even started summoning Lavos to begin with. Whether or not Frog's self-esteem is involved is another story altogether.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 10:58:17 am by Captain B »

Chrono45

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2012, 02:37:14 pm »
Chaos theory wouldn't necessarily explain why one piece of evidence is useless. I actually took inspiration for my example from Chrono Trigger. If you may remember in 12,000 bc a woman is making a decision on whether or not to destroy a plant, well telling her to save the plant completely changes an entire ecosystem on like half of a continent. This seems pretty significant to me. So, you know, it's possible, but I still agree with you to some extent Mr. Bekkler, the incidents on the first trip to 600 ad had almost no impact on the timeline due to almost nothing being changed. Frog (or someone else) rescued the queen and seemingly killed Yakra in that timeline probably close to the same time crono&co did it.

Their is also the counter theory to the Chaos Theory as well, although I don't know if this one has an exact name. There as so many different variables effecting a timeline at once that a change in one would equal out to infinitesimal effects. One may be able to go around changing thousands of variables within a system, but since that system is near infinitely big their is rather little consequence. I believe Zeality may have offered this theory to explain why removing Ayla from the timeline did not effect the present Gaurdia family line.

I am merely throwing options out to make sure we cover all possible bases on the topic.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2012, 04:13:26 pm »
Don't get me wrong, I love this kind of analytical discussion! We should cover all the bases we can!

That said, I thought Fiona's Forest wasn't affected by the Zeal plant lady. I know saving the forest is a sidequest that takes direct action from Crono&co, anyway. Personal opinion: I thought the lady in Zeal, Fiona, and the woman whose husband died in the future where you find the seed were all related, since the Toma and Guardia family lines are so in your face, I like to think subtle similarities between characters in different eras are clues that they are related. Like Ayla and Marle (and later Kid) are essentially blonde tomboys, Marle and Schala have the same pendant, and Doan mentions something about being related if I recall correctly, so it seems in CT every era we're shown has some generation of the same family line in charge. (The Schala Marle connection becomes blurred after the Ocean Palace incident, but remember Dalton (also blonde) survived and tried to proclaim himself king, he may have been the first Guardian (which would make his role in the fall of Guardia rather ironic and twisted).
I'm getting off topic but my point was simply that I thought the Zeal seed lady had no impact on the story (it may just be that I always answered one way whenever I talked to her, I don't know).

Prince Janus

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2012, 06:39:16 pm »
 The word on Fiona is somewhat similar the idea I was talking about.

 Fiona is certainly designed as an allusion to Zeal and 12,000 BC (her clothes in the game's artwork are the same as Schala's, but brown.) As far as being actually connected, I could go either way on it. Even without Crono and his party contaminating 12,000 BC, Fiona is still attempting to restore the forest. Yet at the same time, it's possible the woman in 12,000 BC just decided to hang onto the seed herself.
 
  Has anyone ever told the lady to burn the seed? Does this affect the Fiona sidequest?

Acacia Sgt

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2012, 07:38:22 pm »
  Let's pretend for a moment that Lucca's telepod sent Marle (and Crono, and later herself) to 2300 AD instead of 600 AD.  Assuming everything plays out generally normal-like, Gaspar points them to Medina village so they can get home. They've never been in 600 AD before, nor has that period ever encountered them.

  Normally, when you defeat Heckran, he would say "If only the Great Magus, who brought forth Lavos 400 years ago, had destroyed you humans..." In this alternate course of gameplay, he might have said something totally different: "If only Magus had brought forth Lavos when he had the chance... !!!"

The thing is, how do we know that such thing could happen? And also, was Magus really summoning Lavos to 600AD, or he was just opening a way to Lavos? Take notice how after Crono and co. fight Magus, the soldiers comment how they later searched the place but didn't saw anything out of the ordinary.

My point is, that depending on what exactly they interrupted Magus, it could be that the whole process wasn't gonna even left evidence that it happened. The Mystics talk about a summoning, but they were already being lied about the purpose Magus had with Lavos, so how can we take Heckran's possible alternate words as what exactly happened?

  You guys have to understand I'm only claiming as a potential theory, not fact, that the Crono party's interference in 600 AD might have, via a chain reaction of events, caused Magus to get to work on that earlier, and that he originally may have never even started summoning Lavos to begin with. Whether or not Frog's self-esteem is involved is another story altogether.

To be honest, the Cathedral incident pre-interference and post-interference remained roughly the same. It changed from 'Frog and Guardia Soldiers storm the Cathedral and rescue Leene', to 'Frog, Crono, and Lucca storm the Cathedral and rescue Leene'. Granted, it's enough of a change for the Mystics to react differently to it, but not to be as alarming.

And besides, there's the fact of the seal on the Magic Cave. What else could the humans have used to reach the Mystic Continent in the first place? I don't think Magus would have enough reasons to change the time of the summing because of the Cathedral incident.

Chrono45

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2012, 10:20:28 pm »
I am very certain that if you do not tell the woman to plant the seed (tell her to burn it or strait up dont talk to her) that the Fiona sidequest will not be accessible. However, you can always go back to the woman (she appears in the survivors area after zeal falls) and tell her to plant the seed. Just like every other conversation prompt in Chrono Trigger only one choice has an effect. That being said, it seems to me that since you have to talk to the woman in order to do the forest side quest, it is a pretty clear indication that that is the straw that broke the camels back.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2012, 10:43:04 pm »
Interesting. I don't think I've ever told her to burn it so I've never seen the no forest course, but I trust you know what you're talking about. In that case, it seems we've found at least one inconsistency in the portrayal of effects on the timeline, not even counting the Marle paradox. Can you think of any other big, unintentional ripple effects like that?

utunnels

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2012, 12:02:36 am »
I completely forgot heckran said that!

Well Lavos was support to be summoned as a weapon to kill the humans, at least Magus told the mystics like that (of course he couldn't tell them the truth he was seeking revenge).

So, no matter Lavos appeared or not, the mystics would always think Magus failed -- because they still lost the war.

Also, how the team realized later in game Maugs did not created Lavos but only summoned it(compare to how they believed Magus was the one who created Lavos) somehow showed the script writer's intention was like that.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 12:04:46 am by utunnels »

Prince Janus

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2012, 06:21:38 pm »

Quote
The thing is, how do we know that such thing could happen? And also, was Magus really summoning Lavos to 600AD, or he was just opening a way to Lavos? Take notice how after Crono and co. fight Magus, the soldiers comment how they later searched the place but didn't saw anything out of the ordinary.

  That's the idea behind it being a potentiality. "Who knows? Magus might not have even summoned Lavos to begin with." Except everyone who wasn't paying attention starting tossing Heckran around to joss that, forgetting that you encounter him after affecting 600 AD. [/quote]




maggiekarp

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2012, 11:28:02 pm »
Except for the attack in 1999 AD, Lavos kind of exists in its own little pocket outside of time and space. In that case, summoning it and opening a portal to it are one and the same. Like at the Ocean Palace.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2012, 12:17:06 am »

Quote
The thing is, how do we know that such thing could happen? And also, was Magus really summoning Lavos to 600AD, or he was just opening a way to Lavos? Take notice how after Crono and co. fight Magus, the soldiers comment how they later searched the place but didn't saw anything out of the ordinary.

  That's the idea behind it being a potentiality. "Who knows? Magus might not have even summoned Lavos to begin with." Except everyone who wasn't paying attention starting tossing Heckran around to joss that, forgetting that you encounter him after affecting 600 AD.

And likewise, how do we know if Heckran's quote is or isn't the same as in the unchanged time line. Not all the time period changes when a change in the past is done. Not in all anyway.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 12:19:25 am by Acacia Sgt »

Prince Janus

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Re: What happened to Magus in the original Timeline?
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2012, 11:29:59 am »

Quote
The thing is, how do we know that such thing could happen? And also, was Magus really summoning Lavos to 600AD, or he was just opening a way to Lavos? Take notice how after Crono and co. fight Magus, the soldiers comment how they later searched the place but didn't saw anything out of the ordinary.

  That's the idea behind it being a potentiality. "Who knows? Magus might not have even summoned Lavos to begin with." Except everyone who wasn't paying attention starting tossing Heckran around to joss that, forgetting that you encounter him after affecting 600 AD.

And likewise, how do we know if Heckran's quote is or isn't the same as in the unchanged time line. Not all the time period changes when a change in the past is done. Not in all anyway.

We don't.

Again, Potentiality