Author Topic: Theory on Day of Destruction  (Read 1666 times)

Odd Water

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Theory on Day of Destruction
« on: January 28, 2012, 01:34:06 am »
First let it be known I only joined this site hours before this post, but I've spent the last week reading up on EVERY topic in Chrono Compendium's Articles and Analysis page. Like many of you, I am a long time fan of the series and find the mysteries and ideas within the games to be quite enthralling. That is a lot of go through in a short time. Thankfully, most of the concepts were things I understood very well or already assumed about the series, just perhaps not in as much deep thinking detail. In the course of reading all of that, it started my own mind thinking about ideas and theories I once had long ago or recently developed. I wanted to list them here together as they all tie in strongly with the being Lavos. I did not see these ideas in either of the topic pages pertaining to Lavos (The Ethics of Lavos or Lavos - Points of Interest). Honestly, if these ideas are already in someone else's thread topic, I am sorry. While I did spend most of the week reading up on most of the Compendium site, I don't think I'll be doing the same for every topic on the forums as well. So, here we are with my Second Lavos Theory.

Theory #2: Day of Destruction

Lavos only comes up out of the ground two times in Chrono Trigger. But seeing as how we never get to communicate with the being directly, we never get to really know why these events happened, and can only speculate on them. First off, I think the theory reason behind the first eruption which brought down the Kingdom of Zeal has already been covered quite well. The Kingdom of Zeal, through the Mammon Machine, were siphoning energy off Lavos to power their kingdom. For the great and massive power that is Lavos, it may be that this was a... tolerated small amount of energy that Lavos wasn't all to bothered with, or perhaps even allowed. But then as NPCs in the game even tell us, moving the Mammon Machine down to the Ocean Palace closer to Lavos would allow them to draw a far greater amount of power. Perhaps this is when the mosquito on Lavos' back finally caught its attention enough to warrant a retaliation. So Lavos erupts from the ground, does his defensive bit, and takes down the Kingdom of Zeal, which cuts off a lot of the energy drain being done.

What's missing is no one really goes into detail of why Lavos erupted upon 1999 A.D., The Day of Destruction. Now that best theory out there that most seem to like is that Lavos erupted out at that time sensing the advancement of the humans, and tried to wipe them out to get rid of a threat. I don't really like this idea because it implies a very conscience and deliberate act on Lavos' part against humans. Its one thing to attack or defend against a known or perceived threat, as it did when the Mammon Machine was moved to the Ocean Palace and drew too much energy from Lavos. It is quite another for a creature to look upon something and judge it to become a greater and future threat to oneself. This line of action suggests a far greater line of reasoning and intelligence, which would lead to Lavos being along the notion of 'evil' and not just living out a life-cycle of survival. If Lavos could judge the future high-tech world as being a threat, there is no reason why it would not have been able to do the same with Zeal when they first started to drain energy from Lavos.

My theory for the Day of Destruction is this; that the eruption upon 1999 A.D. was just a natural point in the life-cycle of the Lavos species .

Lavos was already on the planet for a very long time absorbing energy and DNA from species. My suggestion is that by 1999 A.D that Lavos already got enough DNA from creatures and thus needed them no longer. So it erupted to the surface and rained down its destruction from the heavens to clear off most or all of the surface life. Thus giving its spawn a safe place to be deposited for them to grow mostly undisturbed. This would then last until the spawn are large enough and stored enough energy for their own trips out into space, as per the exploding the planet theory of mine before covered.

Kodokami

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Re: Theory on Day of Destruction
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2012, 02:30:31 am »
First off, welcome to the Compendium! And good job on the analyses. They're very well thought out.


To play devil's advocate, Kid's dialogue in Chrono Cross suggest that Lavos did have some form of intelligence.

[  Engulfed in an enormous
   dimensional vortex,
   Chronopolis was hurled ten
   thousand years back in time.
   Perhaps it was the awakenin'
   Lavos who pulled the Frozen
   Flame back through time to it.
   Maybe so that Lavos, who saw
   the possibility that some young
   adventurers might destroy it,
   could create a backup plan. ]
...
[  Just as Lavos, in an attempt
   to save itself, summoned
   Chronopolis from the distant
   future... ]

Seems like Lavos was doing more than simply swatting a pest in this situation. It quite literally looked into the future and judged it to be a threat. What do you think?

Odd Water

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Re: Theory on Day of Destruction
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2012, 03:08:16 am »
Yeah, Lavos purposely summoning Chronopolis was the only real kink that says its a free thinking, conscience being. And I never liked that. To do this, Lavos would have to have a vision and understanding of time, cause and effect well past anything we could comprehend. To KNOW to save itself it had to bring Chronopolis because it knew the sequence of events that would come about is what that suggest. But at the same time it also makes no sense, as so many other things Lavos didn't stop or prevent, not to mention summoning Chronopolis in the long run didn't save itself anyway. I think the act of that was just fluke chance, and that Kid is just giving Lavos way too much credit. As it is in real life, it is in games, just because someone says something or thinks it, doesnt make it true. Best I can come up with is after so long of absorbing DNA, that even if its actions are based on a simple instinct, who's to say the complexity of Lavos doesn't take advantage of any and all bits of data it might have absorbed over the eons, even if it doesn't understand what its doing.

Kodokami

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Re: Theory on Day of Destruction
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2012, 11:59:15 am »
Let's also consider that Lavos may have inherited the intelligence of the humans, Mystics, and Reptites. Yet, as you said, Lavos may be too complex to even understand intelligence. It may also be that it's too simple, or dumb, but I find that highly unlikely for a creature so evolved as Lavos.

Having intelligence would suggest that Lavos' actions are malicious. However, the only times where it purposefully caused destruction were when it arrived on the planet and when it was ready to spawn, both of which are inevitable during its course of life. Everything else is in response to some other event to protect itself. So in all, I would agree with you that Lavos is not evil and is simply following its instincts to live.

Chrono45

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Re: Theory on Day of Destruction
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2012, 05:30:54 am »
Just because an organism like lavos mass kills other organisms doesnt mean that it is evil. Infact, one might profess that evilness is not an unique quality of the universe but merely a human invented definition. Also, one wouldn't consider the mass genocide of mosquitoes by the human race which is committed every spring to be evil. Lavos' relationship might be just that to humans. saying it is evil, in my opinion, is a silly thing to say. Lets assume lavos is intelligent, it may just be in his best interest to severally cripple the human race for some advantageous reason, and not for malice or opposition to moral ideals or whatever it is that evil is.

on the basis that he is intelligent I believe their is more evidence for it than against it. So I would have to side with idea that he is intelligent. I mean for one, he was absorbing the DNA of several races who seemed to have some semblance of thought for the last like 65+ million years or so. second, the quote previously posted adds some evidence to the possiblity of him having intelligence. Plus in all of the encounters with lavos i receive the feeling that he is indeed acting thoughtfully (although this is little evidence as my thoughts have little to do with empirical evidence). Also his biological structure supports advanced central nervous system species i.e. he has a cephalocaudal design. This is a fancy word biologists use to describe an organism (like a human) with a head down design. From the final fight one can discern a large portion of his base anatomy.

anyways it is a little weird for a parasite to wipe out its host organism, being as that is where the parasite acquires nutrition. So, I would have to say it was mostly because of a different reason he wiped the planet out. Lavos doesn't fit into darwins survival of the fittest design obviously, since he evolves during his life as apposed to a species evolving through reproduction. So... maybe his new DNA for some reason interfered with a parasites natural process of only minorly effecting its host. I always thought possibly a dead planet may have been a more ideal place to make lavos spawns so that could be another reason for the destruction. But, their is little support for that and is merely (as far as i know) speculation. But, I am in general support for the theory's of lavos being intelligence and that he surfaced for some particular thoughtful reason.

Synchronization

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Re: Theory on Day of Destruction
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2012, 06:13:07 pm »
1
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 07:24:10 pm by Synchronization »

Dreamer Kinsurk

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Re: Theory on Day of Destruction
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2012, 08:24:04 pm »
I always kinda thought robots didn't jive with Lavos very well. Completely artificial beings versus a ''DNA Harvester'' parasite thingy. I understand he can mimic the strategies and techniques of these machines.. but there's no DNA he can extract from them.. no beneficial evolutionary traits. Plus, considering how intelligent these sentient beings can become (Just look at what FATE could do), and the kind of weapons they would have at their disposal, I figured Lavos considered the robots more threatening than the humans would ever be.

Satoh

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Re: Theory on Day of Destruction
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2012, 03:32:44 am »
Has anyone posed the celestial envoy theory yet? That Lavos is in fact a galactic missionary that seeds the universe through itself and its offspring, intentionally advancing creatures from a world, and in turn absorbing those enhancements into itself to be spread to yet more worlds by its offspring? Perhaps in its own mind it is not angered by humans' advancement, but is in fact attempting to euthanize a species that is working itself harder and harder toward oblivion... Perhaps we, and the planet, simply don't understand these motives.

I've personally always believed that it was simply Lavos deciding its work was done and breaching to allow its offspring freedom on the surface, possibly as they could not yet withstand the heat of the earth's core.

I could also see that perhaps the fallout from Lavos breaching the surface is an unavoidable rain of destruction. Perhaps that is how it seeds a planet with its young. Perhaps Lavos was giving the gift of greater genetic diversity to a planet that had stagnated with only a single intelligent race surviving. (We don't see any Nu's apart from the robot Belthasar built in the future, nor do we see any obvious evidence of Mystics).

That said, it is entirely possible that it was still swatting a troublesome bug when it destroyed Zeal... after all, by previous logic, it could always revive life on the planet again later.

Another possibility is that the Frozen Flame, used in the mammon machine and later chronopolis, is not simply a piece of Lavos, but is a pre-natal form of Lavos' species, which may develop embedded in or shielded by the spines on its body... When it got separated, it was not concerned for it initially, as it is obviously a hardy species, and could presumably reincorporate the pre-infant Lavos seed/egg into itself for gestation later...

however, when humanity started using it to siphon energy from Lavos (Zeal) the energy transfer, specifically the high transfer rate experience in the undersea palace, was a danger to the offspring, and it destroyed Zeal to protect it. It then settled as there was no more immediate threat...

until later when Chronopolis gained possession of the Flame, abusing it further still, and so, Lavos decided chronopolis had to be silenced this time... But since it was less advanced (we can assume anyway) or differently advanced at any rate, Lavos could not outright destroy Chronopolis, and sent it into the past, knowing it would cause a backlash that would have to be met with retaliation on the part of time and the planet...

IE: Knowing it would give Chronopolis something else to worry about besides Lavos and the Flame directly. With the Flame in the past, it was still safe from the ravages of time, being not yet even a developing organism; still in stasis.


Another note is that I think we assume intelligence indicates a certain kind of behavior. I think it's possible that Lavos can be extremely intelligent, but not be directly sentient, or it can be very advanced, possibly intelligent, but not think in a way that is even comparable to us.

Seeing as Lavos has at least some form of temporal ability (its body is affected by all time periods simultaneously) it may think in higher dimensional planes than we, maybe even 9 or 10...

Most humans interestingly enough, only think in 2 specific dimensions at a time, with only some rather gifted people thinking in 3 at once...Perhaps it's due to the fact that we can only display 2D information, even if it represents 3D... normally. But Lavos' intelligence, if it supports, say, 4 dimensions... full spacial, and then time, and can think in all of these at once, it might be extremely intelligent, or maybe only nominally so, but still has a different kind of thought than we do... Something we could only hope to comprehend using oblique angles: thinking in 2 or 3 dimensions at a time... thus we could never fully understand why it does what it does, or how much it understands what it is doing.

On a similar vein, Perhaps Lavos is merely as intelligent as we, and thus it miscalculates and makes mistakes... maybe even frequently. However, it may, while not being supremely intelligent, have supreme amounts of knowledge... That is, it solves problems at our own level, but it has more information to use when solving.

This is the same thing that makes some scientists seem devoid of common sense, and some uneducated people be very good at strategy. Intellect does not equate to Knowledge nor Wisdom.


I fully realize my multiple points don't all mesh, and they aren't intended to, they are merely my various thoughts on Lavos' intelligence and motivation... Different possibilities.

Chrono_Fusion

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Re: Theory on Day of Destruction
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2012, 10:02:29 pm »
Lavo's is just a glorfied space tick. It is not Lavo's who is evil, the true evil character is queen zeal for using Lavo's power. Lavo's is merely an animal that works on instinct. The whole boss rush sequence thing with DNA and such I can't explain. Perhaps the being inside the shell is evil, perhaps it spent all these years gestating in that shell, and on the day of Lavo's the fetus grew and destroyed the world. I don't know.

Keep in mind I totally disregard Chrono Cross as canon.

EgyLynx

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Re: Theory on Day of Destruction
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2012, 03:58:26 pm »
Zeal or and Dalton...
these are  :twisted:

first i think Magus... Then Lavos... but meet Dalton and or Queen Zeal! argh!

And that is yours mother, Magus and Schala? Oh my!

Crono666

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Re: Theory on Day of Destruction
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2012, 10:03:45 pm »
I always just thought that 1999 just so happen to be the time period for Lavos hibernation to end.

What's interesting about Lavos attack on the world in 1999 A.D. is the fact that it's the first time that Lavos attacks without being provoked.

Every other time in the game Lavos had to be provoked. In both 12000 B.C. and 600 A.D. Lavos only appeared after someone did something to wake it up.

As far as Chrono Trigger's story goes I don't see Lavos as good or evil. Lavos is just going through it's life cycle. Which will cause the end of the world.

We the players who play the game see Lavos as evil because of the final outcome which is that Lavos will destroy the world if it's not destroyed.

I think the most interesting thing about Lavos is it's relationship with Queen Zeal in the Keystone timeline. Lavos clearly didn't like that Zeal woke it up in 12000 B.C. yet it lets her live on the Black Omen without taking hostile action against her.

Lennis

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Re: Theory on Day of Destruction
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2012, 12:38:15 am »
I think the most interesting thing about Lavos is it's relationship with Queen Zeal in the Keystone timeline. Lavos clearly didn't like that Zeal woke it up in 12000 B.C. yet it lets her live on the Black Omen without taking hostile action against her.

It's pretty obvious that Queen Zeal is nothing but a thrall of Lavos, even before Zeal's destruction.  Lavos takes no action against Samele afterward because it can influence her actions at will.  She isn't a threat.

Dalton

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Re: Theory on Day of Destruction
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2014, 01:57:19 pm »
There is a rumours or fairytales about 1999's End of the World in real world. So Kato add this data like Day of Destruction/