Bend of Time - Inactive Projects > Darkness Beyond Time - Dead Project Discussion

5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)

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CelestialPhantasm:
As stated in another thread, I have only recently discovered Crimson Echoes. I am just at the point in the story where King Guardia has been seemingly sent to the Darkness Beyond Time by King Zeal, yet there is an earlier plot point that is still bothering me.

It is explained by Belthasar that the eras visited through the gates (in CT) are linked in their advancement; i.d. The same gate from 1000 that took you to 600 will take you to 605 if you use it in 1005. This inherent link would lead me to believe that Glenn would not have noticed a change in the timeline (caused by King Zeal's meddling) until 605, since this change was produced in -11995 and not in -12000. He would have returned to Guardia, everything would have been as he had left it (as seen in the endings of Chrono Trigger, where he is accompanying the King and Queen), and after 5 years he would suddenly awake to find a changed world- a change of which only he would be aware, due to his Time Traveler's Immunity.

However, in the game itself, he says that he found this world changed already when he returned to 600. It is obviously difficult to be logical about these things since we are dealing with a sort of 5-dimensional causality (time being the 4th and manipulation of events outside the normal stream of time being the fifth), but something seems foul with this plot element. If Glenn discovered the consequences of Zeal's actions in 600, Chrono, Marle and Lucca should also have seen the Vanguard and the absence of Cyrus' grave in Choras in 1000.

The only explanation I can think of, is that one loses Time Traveler's Immunity if one does not continue to actively participate in the events of the 5th dimension. Therefore, since Glenn was not present for the disappearance of the Masamune, he became, after his return to 600, a part of the timeline that was changed, and was changed with it. Therefore, he remembers there having always been a Kasmir since his return to 600, although this was not originally the case. He still has his Masamune and his memories of the way things were before 600, because these were relevant to his time-travels.

This would also explain why Belthasar in 2300 has no Time Traveler's immunity to the events experienced in CE, although he is in fact a Time Traveler from -12000.

The problem posed by this idea is that not all party members were present at King Zeal's removal of the Masamune in -11995. Should these therefore not be personally unaware of the change, just as was the case for Belthasar?

Thoughts? Explanations?

Acacia Sgt:
The link between the gates is only just that, it has nothing to do with how the time line gets changed. That's because affecting one point in the time line affects any point beyond, not just certain points. A change in 11995 BC would no doubt affect every single year after, including 600 AD.

King Zeal had to time travel from 2300 AD to 11995 BC, therefore, Glenn was able to experience the unaltered time line first as time went forward as usual. Then King Zeal went to Antiquity and removed the Masamune. Time moves forward once more in this new time line, and in the new 600 AD Glenn arrives as usual thanks to TTI and notice the changes. And, due to the way these thing works and how the game was structured, we meet this version of Glenn instead of the one who got to witness the unaltered 600 AD.

CelestialPhantasm:

--- Quote from: Acacia Sgt on January 17, 2012, 01:30:26 pm ---And, due to the way these thing works and how the game was structured, we meet this version of Glenn instead of the one who got to witness the unaltered 600 AD.

--- End quote ---

This is the fishy part. What happened to the Glenn who witnessed the unaltered 600 A.D.? Was he sent to the Darkness Beyond Time? Does this mean, as already postulated, that he lost his TTI after the fight against Lavos?

Obviously it was structured in this way so that, as soon as King Zeal changes history, Glenn would have immediately already established the Vanguard; which is a nice, important plot point. There is just something about it that seems forced.

Acacia Sgt:

--- Quote from: CelestialPhantasm on January 18, 2012, 06:24:39 am ---This is the fishy part. What happened to the Glenn who witnessed the unaltered 600 A.D.? Was he sent to the Darkness Beyond Time? Does this mean, as already postulated, that he lost his TTI after the fight against Lavos?

Obviously it was structured in this way so that, as soon as King Zeal changes history, Glenn would have immediately already established the Vanguard; which is a nice, important plot point. There is just something about it that seems forced.

--- End quote ---

Yes, the time line he was in got sent to the DBT since a new one came to be when King Zeal removed the Masamune. But no, he didn't loose his TTI, otherwise he wouldn't have appeared in the new 600 AD in that case. Remember that both Glenns (the one who witnessed the unaltered events and the one that did) are the same individual, the only difference is to what time line he is entering. Likewise once the Masamune is restored to it's proper place that very same Glenn will witness the restored 600 AD due to TTI, but of course, by this point it is also a Time Bastard since the Glenn that saw the Vanguard Time Line, at the time the 'current' version of him, made further time travels.

It may look forced, but sometimes that's the only thing to do. When the 1000 AD trio traveled to 600 AD for the first time in the game, they first entered the unaltered 600 AD. But of course, it is most likely that those version of the events weren't relevant for the overall plot, so the whole thing essentially 'skips' until the point the time line gets altered and now the game resumes to the trio entering the altered one.

For example, during the Reptite Time Line arc, imagine that you only get to play and witness Crono, Glenn, and Magus's section. And the game continues as usual with Marle in the restored 1 AD. Due to what you witness with CFM, you know something happened to Marle in the Reptite Time Line, but you just don't get shown that because the game just sends you to witness the restored events. Well, it's essentially the same thing. Whatever they did in those now-discarded time lines, it gets 'skipped' from the witnessing perspective for whatever reason it may be.

Mr Bekkler:
Nothing like that ever happens in CT. That's my problem with TB and TTI.

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