Answering a friend's question about some possible plot holes, need assistance

[tuxedojacob]

Hi Compendium,

I have a friend playing Trigger for the first time in a long time, and I have some questions he asked me that I would like help answering.  These questions are using his original wording, fyi.  Some of his phrasing is a little hyperbolic, but you get the idea.  Any help answering these would be fantastic, (I really want this stint of Trigger to leave a good taste in his mouth).

He asks:

1. What the heck is up with the Black Omen? - So I'm not exactly going through the game with a fine-tooth comb and nitpicking all the little details here, but the Black Omen seems to stick out more than others. Why isn't the Black Omen ALREADY in the present when the game starts? What is it that the party did when they went to the Age of Antiquity that triggered the Black Omen to rise from the ocean? Was "eating Crono" enough to give Lavos, and thus Zeal, the power to rise up out of the ocean?

2. Didn't I just screw up the Gurus from being sent to other time periods? - This is related to the ocean palace thing. In Magus' flashback he remembers when the three gurus were sent to the end of time, the future, and the present respectively. In your version of those events (where you walk in and screw things up) they only mention Melchoir and Janus being sent around. The other two are actually completely unmentioned or seen. Shouldn't they like, disappear like Marle did?

3. Crono's Death is pointless - I don't remember it being this pointless 12 years ago, but seriously, Crono basically gets up and dies. AFTER watching Magus get his butt kicked no less. His attempt seems as ridiculous as that scene in Monty Python where they charge the castle and start hitting it with their swords. And why didn't he Dodge?
Seriously, Magus' comment shouldn't have been "Play with fire and you get burned' but rather "Attack like a total moron and you get disintegrated"

4. Dalton is an idiot - This technically a plot hole, but they DO establish that Dalton is an idiot so it um... makes sense?
But Dalton is FLYING the Epoch and he doesn't figure out that it's also a time machine.
However, he says in the DS translation "Oh that ship matches That Guru's design" meaning that he recognized it right away. But what did he think Guru made it for? Originally the ship didn't move at all. In fact all it DID was move through time.  Why didn't Dalton go to the future and gather all kinds of technology and create a world where he is the supreme emperor of knowledge? Why isn't the dungeon where you get the Epoch back one where you find a portal into the present and then fight Dalton as a super half-human half-machine monstrosity?

Edit: I have a satisfying enough quoted straight from the compendium for Q-1.

A. The answer lies with Schala. When Crono's group came around, she had only enough power to transport his two friends and Magus to safety. However, originally, she would have had sufficient power to remove herself, Queen Zeal, and another person (perhaps Dalton). Since Queen Zeal is suggested as the necessary key to raising the Black Omen, as she stays behind in the incident and communes with Lavos, her absence from the ordeal would probably nix the Black Omen's creation and appearance. This also provides for the pendant's history as a Kingdom of Guardia heirloom; if Schala had perished in the Ocean Palace, it would have been buried under the sea. However, if she warped out with a couple others, the Pendant would be safe on land to be passed down successive generations.

[ZeaLitY]

1. Legend has it that without the need to teleport the party out, Schala was able to use her pendant's power to teleport herself, Janus, and Queen Zeal and out of the Ocean Palace and on to the mainland. If Schala hadn't escaped somehow, her pendant would have remained on the ocean floor presumably forever, and would have never been able to become a Guardia heirloom (note that this is not implying that Schala/the Zeal family have any relation to Marle).

2. Time Traveler's Immunity and Time Bastard. Time Traveler's Immunity states that when you travel through time, your act of travel, and your emergence on the other end of the "Gate", is always protected from that point on, cutting off your past continuity. Time Bastard states that if you alter time so that the past you does not time travel, that you will nonetheless "disappear" or be sent to the Darkness Beyond Time (well, it's nicer to think you absorb it somehow) to preserve conservation of energy/matter/whatever. Melchior, Janus, and the other Gurus' original acts of time travel are preserved, and that's why in the Keystone timelines (when Crono's on his quests), Melchior and Janus seem to get consumed by black holes instead of time traveling normally. Time Bastard in operation, in our opinion.

3. Theory holds that he was going to try and do a Luminaire or something. Yeah, pretty pointless death.

4. Yeah, this one's pretty hard to believe. It has a dial with eras on it. Then again, I'm sure Dalton had no idea what "12,000 B.C." meant, considering that was using the Guardia calendar. So the dates may have confused him. Belthasar may have also been hiding the fact that his flying ship was going to be a time machine, since I doubt that's the kind of thing everyone would immediately get on board with, especially given that it's Belthasar building it. I'm sure more than one person in Zeal klnew he was kind of on the megalomaniac side. Anyway, good find, here; poor Dalton the idiot...

[tuxedojacob]

So, his hang ups are now as follows:

"Also, the idea of Time Traveler's immunity is apparently destroyed with Marle disappearing at the beginning of the game.

There is an example of where the past was changed, and the players were ultimately effected.

If the Pendent was lost with the interference in antiquity, then the travelers shouldn't have left in the first place, and the other two Gurus should have been completely erased. "

It seems like on the surface, he kind of has a point Any ideas?

[xcalibur]

So, his hang ups are now as follows:

"Also, the idea of Time Traveler's immunity is apparently destroyed with Marle disappearing at the beginning of the game.

There is an example of where the past was changed, and the players were ultimately effected.

A valid issue, see: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Marle_Paradox_(Reasons_for).html

If the Pendent was lost with the interference in antiquity, then the travelers shouldn't have left in the first place, and the other two Gurus should have been completely erased. "

It seems like on the surface, he kind of has a point Any ideas?

Time Travelers Immunity states that Chrono & crew won't be affected, even as they change the timeline. Thus, after they save the future, they'll still remember the ruined future and the "day of lavos" video.

[xcalibur]

btw, the way I would've rewrote the Marle situation to fit with the rest of the game is:

you meet up with Marle and Lucca, and decide that the real queen will find her way back and it'll work out. you return to the present to find that the Gate drops you off in a wilderness, because Guardia fell long ago. So to restore the present timeline, you have to save the queen. Marle would go on masquerading as queen for the obvious benefits, that way you'd still have Crono/Lucca/Frog in the Cathedral.

[Mortalshuffle]

I really don’t think the Marle paradox is as complicated as everyone tries to make it. I have two theories about this:

My first theory is that it’s a bit like throwing a rock into a lake: it takes a while for the ripples to reach to reach the edges. Marle disappears because she is the closest to where the rock lands by being a direct descendant of Queen Leene. The reason Crono and Lucca aren’t immediately affected is because that distortion in time hasn’t reached them.

Or, my second theory, the pendant and gate key protect them from losing their memories. Lucca and Crono’s proximity to the Telepod after Marle disappears at the Millennial Fair keep their memories fully intact. Crono goes into the past with the pendant protecting him (alas, only capable of protecting the person physically holding it) and Lucca later follows with the gate key, which is made from parts of the Telepod. I like to think that Crono is incapable of leaving the “room” after Marle is thrown back in time because that’s the extent of the Telepod/gate key’s range (well, that and his underlying moral convictions [or guilt trip by Lucca depending on how you play it]). Any further and he would lose his memories.

Or it’s a combination of the two.

As for Belthasar and Gaspar, I have (yet again) two theories: One is that Lavos would be gunning for them no matter where in Zeal Kingdom they were and sent them into other times where they would be less of a threat to him. The other is that the events of Magus’ flashback still occurred; however, it happened either shortly before Crono and company arrived in the Ocean Palace, or while the team was busy fighting Lavos. After all, Queen Zeal, Schala, and Magus all teleport in immediately after Lavos trounced Crono and company; who says they weren't dealing with some pesky Gurus and a young prince?

[maggiekarp]

I don't agree with the "Schala escaped to pass down the pendant in the original timeline" theory. If Schala was the direct descendant of Marle and "removed" from the timeline, even if Marle still existed because she was a time traveler, it would have wiped out the rest of the Guardia line who didn't time travel. Crazy fisherman pendant theory is the only one that really works there.

[Acacia Sgt]

I don't agree with the "Schala escaped to pass down the pendant in the original timeline" theory. If Schala was the direct descendant of Marle and "removed" from the timeline, even if Marle still existed because she was a time traveler, it would have wiped out the rest of the Guardia line who didn't time travel. Crazy fisherman pendant theory is the only one that really works there.

Well, don't the fact the Guardia royalty still exists means she isn't their direct ancestor anyway? Just because she owns the pendant doesn't mean it's her descendants, if any, that passed it down.

[Manly Man]

My own theory about the Marle Paradox would be explained late in the game. At some point, Robo presents the theory that all of this was based on flashbacks by the planet's spirit, who realizes that it's going to die. The Entity is proven to exist during Chrono Cross, and so there's no arguing that it's just a pondering from a few centuries of thought by Robo.

Considering that The Entity is, to some degree, a conscious being- if not, it wouldn't have the memories to flash back to in the first place- it would see Crono and Marle being teleported back. The Entity then realizes that it has a chance now to save its own life, and so it takes away Marle, so as to motivate Crono to 'fix' the past, recognize when the gates show up and trigger their whole adventure.

[xcalibur]

I don't agree with the "Schala escaped to pass down the pendant in the original timeline" theory. If Schala was the direct descendant of Marle and "removed" from the timeline, even if Marle still existed because she was a time traveler, it would have wiped out the rest of the Guardia line who didn't time travel. Crazy fisherman pendant theory is the only one that really works there.

Well, don't the fact the Guardia royalty still exists means she isn't their direct ancestor anyway? Just because she owns the pendant doesn't mean it's her descendants, if any, that passed it down.

Ayla is acknowledged as the ancient progenitor of the Guardia line. There's no reason why they weren't mainly descended from the Earthbound - in fact, isn't the earthbound chieftain an ancestor?

[Mortalshuffle]

Maggiekarp, Acacia Sgt, ancestors are the people who come before you. Like your grandparents. Descendants are the people who come after you, like your kids. I see people misuse these words all the time on these boards and it’s getting to be a pet peeve of mine. Xcalibur, you’re doing it right.

Secondly, I can’t help but wonder if we’re overthinking the problem with the pendant. We learn in Chrono Cross that Schala’s pendant is capable of rewinding time. Why couldn’t it simply rewind itself back to when the Guardia royal line would first come across it after Kid was done using it? For all we know, in the original timeline it may have “fast-forwarded” itself to a safer point in time.

[ZealKnight]

So just to be clear so I can follow this better:

1. Why did Marle disappear if she has Time Traveler's Immunity?

and

2. If Schala were to not escape from the Ocean Palace, then the Pendent should no longer be in the timeline other than the one Crono and Co. are using.

[Mr Bekkler]

Maybe Guardia was directly descended from Dalton, who stole the pendant in the original timeline?

As for the Marle paradox... Smart Time .

[Mortalshuffle]

So just to be clear so I can follow this better:

1. Why did Marle disappear if she has Time Traveler's Immunity?

and

2. If Schala were to not escape from the Ocean Palace, then the Pendent should no longer be in the timeline other than the one Crono and Co. are using.

You're going to get a lot of differing opinions on this, but in my version of events Marle did not have TTI at that point in time. As far as I'm concerned TTI is caused by the Gate Key or the pendant. If you don't have either of those on you, you have to be insanely careful when time traveling or else you'll create a paradox like Marle did. It's the reason why the time travelers from Chronopolis created safeguards to keep them from engaging in interactions with the Zenan mainland that could change history.

[Acacia Sgt]

Maggiekarp, Acacia Sgt, ancestors are the people who come before you. Like your grandparents. Descendants are the people who come after you, like your kids. I see people misuse these words all the time on these boards and it’s getting to be a pet peeve of mine. Xcalibur, you’re doing it right.

Secondly, I can’t help but wonder if we’re overthinking the problem with the pendant. We learn in Chrono Cross that Schala’s pendant is capable of rewinding time. Why couldn’t it simply rewind itself back to when the Guardia royal line would first come across it after Kid was done using it? For all we know, in the original timeline it may have “fast-forwarded” itself to a safer point in time.

Wait, how did I used them wrong?

Well, don't the fact the Guardia royalty still exists means she isn't their direct ancestor anyway? Just because she owns the pendant doesn't mean it's her descendants, if any, that passed it down.

I clearly meant Schala there, as in, she not being the direct ancestor of the Guardia Royalty. While the latter meant her hypothetical descendants who pass down the pendant. Both cases are being used correctly.

Oh, I get it, you thought I meant Marle there, isn't it? No, I was quoting to:

I don't agree with the "Schala escaped to pass down the pendant in the original timeline" theory. If Schala was the direct descendant of Marle and "removed" from the timeline, even if Marle still existed because she was a time traveler, it would have wiped out the rest of the Guardia line who didn't time travel. Crazy fisherman pendant theory is the only one that really works there.

I guess I should've bold it in the first place.