Author Topic: Chronopolis Contradictions  (Read 6317 times)

Duke Serkol

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Re: Chronopolis Contradictions
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2011, 03:36:41 pm »
Just the area around Chronopolis (the theory was originally developed to help explain the Dead Sea, which is contained in only that space).
Mh, still we may as well expand that to the rest of El Nido in order to cover the furtune teller too. Or has another explanation for her ability already been proposed?

Hm, what you wrote before this is a good idea. I can't wait for the next analysis review.
I thought you might like it ^_^

"Keystone" Dimension & Timelines was just something I made up since it's the principal dimension that the games take place in.
Yes, but why did you choose the name "keystone"?

Yeah, I wish the Ghost Children would have been explained more. It also seemed inconsistent that they appeared in "chibi" forms or whatever.
You know, I suspect the reason they appeared as children was to avoid a conflict between the old cartoony style of Trigger and the new "realistic" one of Cross.
If the characters had been shown at the same age as in Trigger but with the style of Cross, some people could have gone "WTF that's not the way they are supposed to look! NOW THE SERIES IS RUINED!!!1!11". Conversely, if they had literally made polygonal models out of the sprites from Trigger, they would have clashed really badly with the new characters. Showing them as children however gets around the issue because they can reasonably be chibi even within the art style of the new game.

Were they really the deceased Chrono crew? Were they manifestations of the planet? Were they created by Belthasar, ghosts like the other Chronopolis staff workers? Sigh. Considering the evidence that Crono and Marle didn't die in the Fall of Guardia, the latter two explanations seem right, and yet, they definitely do seem to be Crono, Marle, and Lucca. They know things only the real people would know. So frustrating.
Evidence? You mean the drawings in Lucca's home? Or am I missing something?
I'd say it's possible given all the mucking around with time that occurs in these games (Dead Sea anyone?) that they could be ghosts of people that have not yet died.
But the line which I find really maddening is:
Quote
[Lucca]
   Sorry for making you sad,
   Kid...
   You see, we no longer
   exist in this time line.
That does seem to indicate that they all died... but who could have done in Crono and Marle? Unless someone managed to trap them in the past and they died of old age. That, I guess, I could see happening. But someone like Dalton taking out the slayer of Lavos? Not a snowball's chance in hell.

A guy in Home Arni tells you the rumor of Radical Dreamers.
Ah, nice catch!

In the Ultimania interview, Kato confirms that there are/were two versions of each Kid, Lynx, and the seven Dragons Gods. Six of the dragons were killed off (presumably by FATE); Home World's Lynx and Harle disappear in the Dead Sea along with the Dragoons (however, they are not present with the Dragoons in-game); and Home World's Kid is thieving on the Zenan mainland.
Ah yes, I thought I'd read that somewhere on the site but couldn't remember the page, thanks ^^
...though I still don't understand how the divided parts of a once single entity where able to start a family and reproduce (Draggy clearly lists a whole bunch of relatives). That's freaky...

Quote
As a result of the time clash, the dimensions split. The point in time where Chronopolis and Dinopolis was hurled to, another moon came in existence.
Ah, so the second moon appeared together with Dinopolis, I see.
...too bad it's nowhere to be seen in Kid's past when Serge goes back in time to get her out of the orphanage. Ah well.

So much was not explained efficiently
I know! I'd really like to see, rather than a retranslation patch, an "improvement patch" for this game, one that takes some liberties with the dialogues to give more straightforward answers (the ones we do posses, I'm not saying we should make them up) and make the interaction between characters a little more believable.
Like when you first board Fargo's ship and he goes "Ah, so you're not spies for Lynx, you came from a parallel dimension and he's been chasing you for some mysterious reason claiming you're the assassin of time, I see. I totally believe you, but I'm still going to beat you up and throw you into a cell. It's a pirate thing."
I was facepalming so hard my hand went through the back of my skull. How much better would it be if Fargo had said "A parallel dimension? Preposterous! You must be spies sent by Lynx. Have at you!"
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 03:45:58 pm by Duke Serkol »

alfadorredux

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Re: Chronopolis Contradictions
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2011, 05:06:06 pm »
...though I still don't understand how the divided parts of a once single entity where able to start a family and reproduce (Draggy clearly lists a whole bunch of relatives). That's freaky...

I've always assumed that Draggy wasn't of quite the same species as the Dragon Gods--maybe the Dragonians needed a practice run, or they used a species of critter they'd already built as a base for the Dragon Gods.

Quote
Like when you first board Fargo's ship and he goes "Ah, so you're not spies for Lynx, you came from a parallel dimension and he's been chasing you for some mysterious reason claiming you're the assassin of time, I see. I totally believe you, but I'm still going to beat you up and throw you into a cell. It's a pirate thing."
I was facepalming so hard my hand went through the back of my skull. How much better would it be if Fargo had said "A parallel dimension? Preposterous! You must be spies sent by Lynx. Have at you!"

Judging from Fargo's earlier dialogue in that scene, his real reason for stashing them belowdecks wasn't that he didn't believe them, but that he thought they were going to get themselves killed and didn't want it on his conscience:

Fargo:
   But...
   Don't ya know you're
   riskin' yer lives?
   Don't ya recognize
   the danger associated
   with Lynx?
   He's a monster...
   A cold-blooded monster...
   An incarnation of death...

Duke Serkol

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Re: Chronopolis Contradictions
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2011, 09:08:37 pm »
I've always assumed that Draggy wasn't of quite the same species as the Dragon Gods--maybe the Dragonians needed a practice run, or they used a species of critter they'd already built as a base for the Dragon Gods.
That's an interesting theory... but say, by Dragonians do you mean Reptites?
...come to think of it, if Dinopolis engaged combat with Chronopolis the moment they appeared (as I had assumed) then who was responsible for building Fort Dragonia and when?

Mh, on a second thought, the place is built over the concept that there's six dragon gods, so it most likely should have been made after FATE split them.

Judging from Fargo's earlier dialogue in that scene, his real reason for stashing them belowdecks wasn't that he didn't believe them, but that he thought they were going to get themselves killed and didn't want it on his conscience
You're probably right, but as said, dialogues in this game often don't convey things in a very clear straight-forward manner, hence my confusion.
If Fargo had said something like "Sorry but it's for your own good, can't let you go get yourselves killed." There would have been no misunderstanding.
Even so, that doesn't change the fact that nearly everybody in the game reacts with implausible ready acceptance to the idea that the characters have been traveling between parallel dimensions (rather than think they're loonies).
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 09:11:05 pm by Duke Serkol »

Kodokami

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Re: Chronopolis Contradictions
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2011, 09:47:23 pm »
Quote from: Duke Serkol
Mh, still we may as well expand that to the rest of El Nido in order to cover the furtune teller too. Or has another explanation for her ability already been proposed?
She's a fortune teller. It's her job to predict futures. :P Of course, games do this all the time with prophecies and such. Just a literary device. If I had to pin her clairvoyance to something in-game, I'd say it's magical in origin. Perhaps Sprigg taught her, as the two are acquainted.

Quote from: Duke Serkol
But the line which I find really maddening is:
Quote
[Lucca]
   Sorry for making you sad,
   Kid...
   You see, we no longer
   exist in this time line.
That does seem to indicate that they all died... but who could have done in Crono and Marle? Unless someone managed to trap them in the past and they died of old age. That, I guess, I could see happening. But someone like Dalton taking out the slayer of Lavos? Not a snowball's chance in hell.
Yeah, that quote really suggests that our three heroes did die. I am almost sure that Lucca is dead, as Lynx says "I'll send you to see Lucca" before almost killing Kid. Though we can't know for certain.

Quote from: Duke Serkol
...though I still don't understand how the divided parts of a once single entity where able to start a family and reproduce (Draggy clearly lists a whole bunch of relatives). That's freaky...
The Dragon God is a biological machine created by the Dragonians (future Reptites). As utunnels said, Draggy is not related (unless he really is a Dragonian, which wouldn't match the depictions of them at Fort Dragonia). Also, Chronopolis did not wipe out the Dragonians; FATE orchestrated the war to conquer Dinopolis and the Dragon God. The citizens of both cities were able to live peacefully together--until around 920 AD, when foreign settlers began hunting the Dragonians to extinction. (wow, amazing how I can cite all this...)

Quote from: Duke Serkol
...too bad it's nowhere to be seen in Kid's past when Serge goes back in time to get her out of the orphanage. Ah well.
I actually thought that maybe the second moon was created at the same time as Harle. Reading that quote from Belthasar blows the idea out of the water though.

Quote from: Duke Serkol
I know! I'd really like to see, rather than a retranslation patch, an "improvement patch" for this game, one that takes some liberties with the dialogues to give more straightforward answers (the ones we do posses, I'm not saying we should make them up) and make the interaction between characters a little more believable.
That would be really nice. I'd rather wait for a retranslation first though, to gather all information.

Duke Serkol

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Re: Chronopolis Contradictions
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2011, 08:55:40 am »
Yeah, that quote really suggests that our three heroes did die.
Not only that, she isn't even saying anything like "In this time line we no longer exist, but if the Time Devourer is removed that's going to change."
It could be she doesn't want to put pressure on the heroes (yeah like that's going to make a difference when fighting something that plans to eat the multiverse), but it doesn't sound like Lucca expects for herself and her friends to be alive in the next timeline either.

Another possible interpretation I've considered is that she may be saying that they no longer exist as the people Kid knew because of all the timeline rewriting, but that flies in the face of Temporal Traveler Immunity, so it doesn't work.

The Dragon God is a biological machine created by the Dragonians (future Reptites). As utunnels said, Draggy is not related (unless he really is a Dragonian, which wouldn't match the depictions of them at Fort Dragonia).
Well then, if you don't think he's a dragon nor dragonian, what do you figure he and his family were?

Also, Chronopolis did not wipe out the Dragonians; FATE orchestrated the war to conquer Dinopolis and the Dragon God. The citizens of both cities were able to live peacefully together--until around 920 AD, when foreign settlers began hunting the Dragonians to extinction.
Was that said somewhere in the game? I must have missed it.

That would be really nice. I'd rather wait for a retranslation first though, to gather all information.
Glad you agree, and yeah having a retranslation available before starting such a project would be the ideal.

Kodokami

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Re: Chronopolis Contradictions
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2011, 01:47:25 pm »
There are at least three types of dragons in El Nido: the seven and/or one Dragon God(s); the Dragonians (who are extinct); and the "dragons" kept in the stable at Viper Manor. Then there is Draggy. I think the common consensus is that Draggy is either a true Dragonian, or a native species to El Nido. I prefer the latter. You should check out this link below, which discusses Draggy a little more in depth. I particularly like utunnels' "Draggy to Dragonian is like Demi-human to Human" (much like the Hydras are related to Dragonians).

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,9184.0.html

Also, Chronopolis did not wipe out the Dragonians; FATE orchestrated the war to conquer Dinopolis and the Dragon God. The citizens of both cities were able to live peacefully together--until around 920 AD, when foreign settlers began hunting the Dragonians to extinction.
I guess I jumped the gun here. These things are not outright said in the game, but implied. 920 AD comes from Steena:
Quote
   This was about a hundred years
   ago, before immigrants from the
   mainland came to El Nido.
   The now extinct Dragonians,
   demi-humans, and our ancestors
   lived on the main island and not
   on the outlying islands.
It should be noted, however, that she contradicts herself just a few lines before by saying "several hundred years."

So Dragonians, demi-humans, and humans lived together on the same island for thousands of years. The rest of my assumption (FATE taking over Dinopolis to build its paradise) comes from the following quote:
Quote
[Ghost]
   Originally, El Nido was
   nothing but ocean.
   The El Nido Archipelago
   is purely artificial,
   created by FATE.
   It was a remodeling plan that
   took place 10,000 years ago.
   A plan to include islands, blessed
   with nature, in the sea of El Nido.
   The main island of El Nido,
   Earth Dragon Isle, Water Dragon Isle,
   Black Dragon Isle...
   The development of Elements,
   using the energy of the
   natural world...
   The distribution of memory
   terminal devices called the
   Records of Fate that could
   survey and guide
   people's lives...
   The research center staff, who
   had their memories of the future
   erased, left the center, and began
   a life outside amidst nature.
   This is how FATE's paradise
   came into existence.

Duke Serkol

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Re: Chronopolis Contradictions
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2011, 08:06:52 pm »
I think the common consensus is that Draggy is either a true Dragonian
With one really, really big mommy...

Given everything that's been said, I'd guess Draggy belongs to some species that while not actual Dragonian most likely did come with them and their city.

I guess I jumped the gun here. These things are not outright said in the game, but implied. 920 AD comes from Steena:
Quote
   This was about a hundred years
   ago, before immigrants from the
   mainland came to El Nido.
   The now extinct Dragonians,
   demi-humans, and our ancestors
   lived on the main island and not
   on the outlying islands.
It should be noted, however, that she contradicts herself just a few lines before by saying "several hundred years."
Ah, I must have missed that, thank you ^_^

ZeaLitY

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Re: Chronopolis Contradictions
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2011, 08:34:36 pm »
Mh, still we may as well expand that to the rest of El Nido in order to cover the furtune teller too. Or has another explanation for her ability already been proposed?

Sigh, that one's just been written off as a narrative device. Stories have fortune-tellers and foreshadowing, and that plays havoc with temporal mechanics :(

Quote
Yes, but why did you choose the name "keystone"?

Ah, just a random thing that came to my head that day. Yeah, I think your idea about the chibis is correct...they almost look like sprites, that way.

Quote
Evidence? You mean the drawings in Lucca's home? Or am I missing something?

Yeah, those drawings are the primary evidence. They had to be made after 1005 A.D. unless Lucca was asking kids to draw pictures of her dead friends  :shock:  The other line is Home World, so there's no telling if they mean they're dead by 1020 A.D. or if it's more symbolism about Lavos destroying the world in 1999 A.D., or something like that. Ugh, ugh, ugh.

Quote
...come to think of it, if Dinopolis engaged combat with Chronopolis the moment they appeared (as I had assumed) then who was responsible for building Fort Dragonia and when?

We believe that after the Polis War, the Dragonians lived and dispersed into El Nido along with the humans from Chronopolis. In-breeding and colonialism eventually extincted them, leaving only Demi-humans.

Duke Serkol

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Re: Chronopolis Contradictions
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2011, 09:28:14 pm »
Yeah, those drawings are the primary evidence. They had to be made after 1005 A.D. unless Lucca was asking kids to draw pictures of her dead friends  :shock:  The other line is Home World, so there's no telling if they mean they're dead by 1020 A.D. or if it's more symbolism about Lavos destroying the world in 1999 A.D., or something like that. Ugh, ugh, ugh.
Mh... you mean the line
[Lucca]
   Sorry for making you sad,
   Kid...
   You see, we no longer
   exist in this time line.
Is necessarily only spoken while in Homeworld? (I thought they appeared on the beach in both worlds, but I guess I could be misremembering)

ZeaLitY

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Re: Chronopolis Contradictions
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2011, 03:06:15 am »
Yeah, they're only in the beach with the Darkness Beyond Time portal (Home, IIRC). I think, hahaha. Now some doubt has been introduced to my mind...

Duke Serkol

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Re: Chronopolis Contradictions
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2011, 10:54:01 am »
Ah okay... I guess it wouldn't be too bad if they had died in Home but still lived (with Lucca's unfortunate exception) in Another. That was in Ideal they could, ideally, still be alive.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Chronopolis Contradictions
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2012, 01:06:08 am »
Damn. You know, we really need to go ahead and do the XLS treatment for Chrono Cross, and have a Cross script with NA and JP original lines, and then retranslate things on a case-by-case basis as needed. The rub is that Richard Honeywood worked with Kato directly to ensure the accuracy of the English translation, but these Chronopolis dialogue inconsistencies (and some other things) are just too much. We need to be able to accurately retranslate some of this stuff.

Ha, though! It's been impossible enough just to do Material Requiring Translation, let alone another retranslation project (even if it would be case-by-case). Sigh...