Chronopolis Contradictions

[Duke Serkol]

Greetings everybody, newcomer here.

Having spent the last few days trying to make sense of what happened in Chronopolis, I started looking around the net for answers, and this seems like the perfect place to ask for other opinions on the lovable insanity that made its way into that part of the game's script.

Now I hope this doesn't go against any of the rules here (I did read them and I think not, but you know, newbie and all that), but what I'd like to do is go through all lines that hold significance to the story of Chronopolis in an attempt to give it some coherence (an attempt that may be doomed to fail from the start, but eh, I'll give it a shot).
Think of the following as some sort of "commentary" to that part of the game, except instead of the director it's a random guy (me) voicing his rather confused thoughts.

Should I be doing something against the rules, I will of course have no objections to having this thread locked up.

So, without further ado, the first quotes of relevance come from the workers resting at the entrance.

Worker A
   I heard group 3B's experiment
   today is going to be a biggie.
   They're releasing the Flame's
   lock-level to D in order to trace
   the counter-time effect...

What is immediately established by these quotes is that from the point of view of these guys, an experiement to trace some "counter-time effect" is soon to happen.

The next few lines give better context to this.

Worler A
   Once we're done with today's
   experiment, we have that long
   awaited 3 week vacation.
   I'm heading back to Zenan
   to spend time with my family.
   My daughter's birthday is
   coming up, you know.
Worker B
   You're from Medina, right?
   I've been on this island
   for a year and a half now.
   Man, I've had enough.
   Aside from the man-made island
   with this research center,
   there isn't a single island
   in the sea of El Nido.

Now the above reveals that these guys had been in Chronopolis for no more than a year and a half consecutively and they look forward to going back to their families in the main continent, Zenan, the islands of El Nido not having come into existence yet.

Worker A
   Once we're able to counter
   time successfully at will, we'll
   have full control over time.
   We'll find out soon enough.

This is a strange answer to the statement above, but it gives an idea of what the experiment's ultimate purpose is.

Moving on, we meet the chief of the institute.

  Perhaps what we are
   doing is wrong?
   If this experiment succeeds,
   we will be able to control time.
   We will have complete control over
   history and, in a sense, become
   a presence, much like god...
   If so, what meaning is there
   to the history of mankind?
   But it's too late, now...
   We can't afford to fail
   in this experiment.
   If, for some reason, anything
   goes wrong, the anti-annihilation
   energy will probably overwhelm us.
   Who knows what the
   consequences may be?

I'm not really sure why he says it's too late to stop, but what's really interesting is that he can't imagine the consequences if something went wrong. That seems to indicate that so far, everything went well.

Up to now, it seems like these ghostly presences are stuck to the lives they led until shortly before this experiment, which supposedly occurred before the islands of El Nido came to exist. Furthermore, it doesn't look like these presences can see the party.
That all changes when we get to the Level 2 Lab.

  Where was the lock release
   for the elevator again?
   My mind's been blanking
   out lately...

   By the way...
   I saw a boy and a flashy-
   looking chick touching
   that panel...

A boy and a flashy-looking chick... call it speculation but it seems like this guy was able to see Dark Serge and Kid on their way to the Flame's chamber.

The truly interesting part though is told to us by another such presence, one that proceeds to illustrate its speech to none other than our party (as no other shadow is present to listen) by changing the image on the screen.

  Originally, El Nido was
   nothing but ocean.
   The El Nido Archipelago
   is purely artificial,
   created by FATE.
   It was a remodeling plan that
   took place 10,000 years ago.

So we have confirmation that the islands were artificially made of course. The first time I listened to this guy, I wasn't sure wheter the islands were made after Chronopolis had been sent to the past (as seems to be the case) or while still in the future (by somehow creating them in the past). The reason is that at this point I still thought all these "ghosts" to have been stuck in time at the same moment, while still in their original time, a thought only enforced by the notation that the remodeling occurred 10,000 years prior.
However we will soon see that not all staff could have been transcended at the same time, which could mean (and most likely does) that this guy is referring to 10,000 past from the current time 1020 AD, not the future Chronopolis came from. But if that was the case, then how long has this poor fellow been hanging here like this?

  The distribution of memory
   terminal devices called the
   Records of Fate that could
   survey and guide
   people's lives...
   The research center staff, who
   had their memories of the future
   erased, left the center, and began
   a life outside amidst nature.
   And for over 10,000 years,
   FATE has been watching over and
   guiding the descendants of the
   staff who left this research center.

And there we have proof that not everybody was changed into these spectral forms on the eve of the experiment, while still in the future. Part of the staff, was able to leave for the newly formed islands and live on there. But the question remains: this guy and the others that stayed behind, when were they changed to these forms? And how aware of their circumstances are they? Do they still carry out their work? Or is this a recent change (perhaps enforced by FATE who may have felt it no longer needed human assistance) and up to that moment many generations had spent their lives working the facility?

  Everything was in pefect harmony.
   That is, until 14 years ago,
   when a boy came into contact with
   the Flame on the night of the storm.

And there we have unarguable confirmation: this presence is speaking from a present time point of view and is aware of the recent events. But still, has this being been like this for a long, long time? Or was it transfigured recently (presumably after the storm)? How does it perceive itself, its (former?) coworkers and physical beings (like the party)?
Can they do nothing about those that are stuck in a previous time of their lives or are they not even aware of them?

Now the next bit is said upon finding a certain item. It's not a big deal but kind of strange.

Grobyc:
   This-cannot-be...
   This-is-the-ancient-super
   weapon-that-was-in
   development-in-Porre.
   But-what-is-it-doing-here?
   It-looks-complete.

When I first ran into this, I thought "Oh well, someone in Home must have taken this to one of the islands in ancient times before the place got turned into the Dead Sea" (Luccia says it was "excavated near an ancient ruin"). Problem there is, Grobyc comes from Another, not Home. Oh well.

So then, onward to Level 3 East Lab.

  Memory scanning and
   rewriting is not that
   difficult a thing.
   As a matter of fact, it
   is possible to simulate
   the thoughts and feelings
   of each individual.
   These are all just electric
   signals that flow around
   the circuitry of the brain,
   after all.
   The vessels of flesh can
   be reproduced through
   cloning...
   And the '"soul"'
   stored within these
   fleshly vessels can
   be simulated as well...
   Thus, one could even go so
   far as to say that death
   itself no longer exists.

Can this be the explanation as to what these shadow workers are? Simulations made from back ups of the people that lived in Chronopolis? But why bother if they'd only end up being stuck reliving the same moment over and over again? And if not all of them are (again, someone seems to have noticed Dark Serge and Kid), then why only some?

Much more is said in that lab but nothing, I believe, concerning the history of Chronopolis, so let us move on to Level 3 West Lab where a computer terminal tells us the following.

  There are those who believe
   that, 12 thousand years ago,
   the legendary ancient magical
   civilization known as Zeal
   came into contact with Lavos.
   That fateful encounter is
   said to have resulted in
   Zeal disappearing from the
   surface of the planet within
   the space of a single night.

Important note! This document dates the destruction of Zeal 12 thousand years ago. This is in stark difference to the recurring number of 10 thousand years ago. It could be that ten thousand is an approximation, but why not approximate only this one time (when a clear reference to Zeal's destruction, which we know occurred in 12,000 BC, is made)?
On the other hand... when was this recording made? Because if it dates back to the original timeframe of Chronopolis, ranging sometime between 2300 and 2400 AD, then the date doesn't match (12 thousand before that time would be 9700 or 9600 BC). If it was after Chronopolis was sent 10,000 years in the past, it'd be even worse (2400 - 10000 would make its destination 7600, going back 12,000 more years would mean 19,600). The only way the statement can truly be correct is if it was written after Chronopolis was sent back in time and only once it reached year 0 (many millennia later).
Ugh...

  However, the very existence
   of the ancient civilization
   of Zeal has never been proven,
   so up till this day this
   theory cannot be confirmed.

And for this one line it becomes rather important to figure when the document was written. If it was before Chronopolis was sent back in time, then no problem. But if it was written afterwards, that would mean Chronopolis did in fact most likely arrive a few millenia after the destruction of Zeal, or evidence of its existence would probably have been found.

  This very research facility
   exists on that new time line...
   In a world where, thanks to
   the defeat of Lavos by the
   young adventurers, the
   Apocalypse never happened...
   On a temporal vector where
   human civilization continued
   to evolve unhampered.

This would hold true regardless of whether Chronopolis was still in its original time or not. Just figured I'd point that out.

Again, much more is said but doesn't seem relevant to this discussion. So onward to Level 4 East Lab.

  In the 11th Century, a scientist
   by the name of Lucca indicated the
   possibility of time travel through
   the use of a '"Time Egg,"' which
   utilizes miniature black holes.
   Whether this could actually be
   possible or not is still the
   subject of intense debate and
   no conclusions have been made.

Okay, unless I'm completely mistaken, the presences in this room seem to be stuck to before they managed to perform any actual time travel (unless they have and it's only this particular form of tiem travel that is still not proven possible). Regardless I find it amusing that millennia after that discussion the computer display is still humoring them...

Further evidence of this:

Researcher B
   I've heard that the Time Egg
   already existed during the
   legendary, ancient dynasty.
Researcher A
   We shouldn't have to rely
   on theories from an ancient
   civilization that may not
   have even existed.
   We can do this.
Researcher B
   But it's been said that time was
   altered using the Time Egg...
Researcher A
   That's just a legend.

Interestingly, this guy seems to dismiss any prior time travel as legend, which flies in the face of the factual account concerning Lavos that was provided in the other lab.

Now initially the next line had me really confused.

  The experiment should
   be starting soon.
   After we discovered an unusual
   gravitational field in this
   barren sea of El Nido we built
   several artificial islands and
   established Chronopolis.
   This was all done to facilitate
   our top secret research.
   But now, our research is
   about to come to its end.
   Once the final adjustments
   are made, the experiment will
   commence.

I thought they where talking about the entire archipelago here, but that made little sense since it supposedly was made after Chronopolis was sent back in time and this conversation is from before they made any breakthroughs in time travel. Eventually I figured out they meant the islands on which Chronopolis and the three Moirae statues stand. Just thought I'd mention it for anyone who may still find this confusing (I'd say it's understandable considering a previous qoute stated "Aside from the man-made island with this research center, there isn't a single island in the sea of El Nido." and I didn't really have the three islands protecting Chronopolis in mind at the time).

Now something interesting... at the end of this dialogue we are told that "The chief hasn't returned yet." and "Then, we'll have to hold off until he gets back."
Why interesting? Because we do need for him to get back before the way onward will open... so not only the computer display is responding to these people stuck before the experiment, even door security. One would almost think the experiment may occur every time the ghosts play out their parts, but I imagine FATE sees to it that it doesn't.

Now then for Level 4 West Lab

  This is the observation room.
   This is where we observe
   the 2 parallel worlds.
   Under the surveillance of the
   main computer of Chronopolis...
   '"FATE."

A room to observe THE two parallel worlds. Considering that they only split 14 years ago this room should be very recent. And yet it has its "ghosts" manning it. Again we have to wonder if these guys are still working or have been until recently being transformed.
Also, throughout the game we've run into the concept that thre may be other worlds (such as one in which the Reptites survived), so why call these THE two worlds? In this very room, we have a recording from Radical Dreamers, however the comment offered by one of the characters is that "Aside from the two worlds we already know about... there may be other worlds and times which exist...". Perhaps (contrary to popular belief?) Radical Dreamers is not its own world but merely a previous state of the timeline?
But we still have to contend with the Reptites world, so maybe the reason only these two worlds are monitored is because they are the only ones that concern FATE directly?

  However...
   Ever since the formation of
   the Dead Sea 10 years ago...
   FATE has been unable to intervene
   directly with World 01.
   The best FATE could do was cross
   the dimension and receive data
   through the Records of Fate.

And if someone other than FATE (who I don't believe speaks of itself in third person) has left this record, this proves that someone has been actively working here even after the formation of the Dead Sea.
I have to wonder about this crossing the dimension bit though. Is that what Lynx does in his spare time? Cross dimensions to deliver data? (Can he even do that without an amulet like Kid's? Remember all the trouble we had to go back when becoming Lynx?)
Also isn't it weird that Home is labeled 1 considering that the true natural flow of time was that of Another? You'd think FATE would know that.

Lastly, once in the basement...

  96% confirmation that this
   individual is the last
   registered arbiter.
   Access granted.
  
   Welcome back,
   Chrono Trigger.

Anybody's got any clue why Serge is being called a Chrono Trigger (which last time I checked was a synonymous of time egg) by the surveillance system? Because I dont' have the faintest.

Next for something Lynx says concerning the night of the storm.

  But they were blown off
   course and came ashore on
   this island, where they
   decided to seek shelter.
   At the time, this research
   center was off-line due to
   the severity of the storm.
   It only took 10 minutes for
   the system to power back up,
   but by then, the Flame had
   found you...

Okay so the research center was off-line... where the workers off-line too? I mean, did no one notice Serge being carried by his father to the most off-limits of rooms in the place? Could this be confirmation that the ghostly presences are computer generated back ups of the facility's personnel? Meaning they were off-line at the time? Truthfully we see no one in the entry hall during Miguel's flashback, and considering that the two presences there were reliving their time before Chronopolis was sent back, they should have been there already.

All in all, I dunno whether they are ghosts or computer generated personnel. The latter would explain their absence during the storm (though I guess such an event could also influence "time ghosts") and it does seem like some of them are still working actively... but at the same time some others clearly are not (being stuck in the past) and even those that do notice living people (Dark Serge, Kid, the party) don't seem to react properly (why is everyone so willing to give us lectures on how the place works rather than call security?).
Personally, I'd like to think they are ghosts that were created in two separate occasions: during the experiment that hurled Chronopolis back in time and when Dark Serge took Kid into the Frozen Flame rooms (in the later occasion turning into ghosts the descendants of the original staff that hadn't left for the islands). If anything the fact that the Dead Sea has similar "time ghosts" from the various futures it is made of would seem to indicate this... but there's no way the few people in Chronopolis could have made for a stable gene pool, sufficient to carry them on for 10,000 years, so it seems we have to fall back on the computer back ups theory.

Finally for Kid's speech.

  In the year 2400, during a
   counter-time experiment, the
   Flame goes out of control...
   This causes the dimensions
   to rip apart, resultin' in
   the Time Crash.
   Engulfed in an enormous
   dimensional vortex,
   Chronopolis was hurled ten
   thousand years back in time.

Uh, but I thought the Tower of Geddon was "Time Crash Ground Zero", implying that the Time Crash was what created the Dead Sea. It certainly made more sense to me seeing as time in the dead sea seems to have crashed to a halt much like a computer's system crash.
Also, once again, Chronopolis is said to have been sent back 10 thousand years, which from 2,400 AD would be 7600 BC. In order for it to be sent all the way back to the fall of Zeal, the correct amount would be 14400 years, which is closer to 15 than 10 (quite the big difference). Kid also says this:

  At the same time, another
   city from a different
   dimension's future, was
   also thrown back in time.
   Dinopolis...

And Belthasar states that Dinopolis was sent back about 10 thousand years in the past.
However Lucca's ghost says both that Zeal's destrcution occurred in 12,000 BC and that Schala traveled ten thousand years forward from there to reach Serge (while Kid says she has been waiting for ten thousand years, gah) and the Frozen Flame tells Kid that the kingdom was destroyed ten thousand years ago... so I give up! I have no idea whether Chronopolis went back to 7,600 or 12,000 BC!

  Perhaps it was the awakenin'
   Lavos who pulled the Frozen
   Flame back through time to it.
   Maybe so that Lavos, who saw
   the possibility that some young
   adventurers might destroy it,
   could create a backup plan.

Considering Chronopolis existed in the first place because Lavos was defeated, I'm very tempted to call BS on that "perhaps" there. Especially since we all know the Chrono games don't work on predestination, so Lavos couldn't see into the future before the change was made by destroying him.

Aaand... that's about it. I hope I didn't bore the heck out of you guys (if so, sorry!) and that you may help me clear up any points where I may have misinterpreted the game.

[ZeaLitY]

Yeah, Chronopolis is hell. Computer-generated workers sounds good; that line about the workers leaving makes it really sound as if every last physical worker left. It's just so needlessly complex and inconsistent to have a set of workers stuck in the past and a set facing the present.

As to the split of dimensions, that's a plot inconsistency:

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Dimensional_Split_%28Timing_of%29.html

For Serge being called the Chrono Trigger, there's this line by Lucca if you show her the Time Egg on Opassa Beach:

The Time Egg...
The ancient sage, Gasper [sic],
once called it the Chrono
Trigger, you know!?
Each of us allows our
feelings to be a trigger...
Letting them loose changes
our world, time, and history!

As for 7600 B.C., the Compendium originally did make this interpretation. It looks like I didn't make a page about the decision to make it 12,000 B.C., but I think it was because""

1. "10,000 years" is used elsewhere as a guesstimation;
2. Floating ice is shown in the Polis War, suggesting the Ice Age still hadn't completely ended;
3. "The awakening Lavos" line suggests that this was Lavos awaking at the Ocean Palace but in this timeline, perceiving the Time Crash, becoming aware of his future defeat, and using the Frozen Flame to introduce chaos into the timeline to try and prevent that defeat.

#3 is the "official" Compendium explanation for that event, based on Kato's suggestion of that in the GamePro interview (I think). These Chronopolis issues make me worried that if Chrono Break ever does materialize, the internal consistency will be bad enough to wreck all the beautiful consistent theory we've made for the existing games.

[Duke Serkol]

Yeah, Chronopolis is hell. Computer-generated workers sounds good; that line about the workers leaving makes it really sound as if every last physical worker left. It's just so needlessly complex and inconsistent to have a set of workers stuck in the past and a set facing the present.

Maybe so, especially given it that, as said, there was not enough of a gene pool to carry over... however, and I overlooked this in my previous post, it is also said that:

  Memory scanning and
   rewriting is not that
   difficult a thing.
   As a matter of fact, it
   is possible to simulate
   the thoughts and feelings
   of each individual.
   These are all just electric
   signals that flow around
   the circuitry of the brain,
   after all.
   The vessels of flesh can
   be reproduced through
   cloning...
   And the '"soul"'
   stored within these
   fleshly vessels can
   be simulated as well...

So maybe there's the real explanation: the workers of Chronopolis may have cloned themselves and passed over their memories to carry on their work up until very recently, when Lynx took Kid into the Flame's chamber. Heck it's possible that the entire staff was at the same time sent off to colonize the islands and still working in Chronopolis as clones (except those lost in the big experiment, of course).
Naturally that still doesn't explain why the ones who are stuck to before the first experiment are still allowed to use computer displays to relive their last day (perhaps some bizarre form of tribute? At the same time both an epitaph and a courtesy to these "ghosts"?)

But on the plus side, their being "time ghosts" makes it logical for them to look the same (except in color) as those in the Dead Sea (who I very much doubt could be computer generated unless the future was crazy enough to keep back ups of people's minds as they went to take the train).

As to the split of dimensions, that's a plot inconsistency:

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Dimensional_Split_%28Timing_of%29.html

Ah yes, I did read that article. Knowing you guys had already figured that out, I avoided pointing out that the split was ever mentioned being any time other than the night of the storm.
My confusion there is only as to what the term "Time Crash" should refer to since, regardless of dates, Miguel seems to imply that it was whatever caused the Dead Sea to come into existence (for the Tower of Geddon to be Time Crash Ground Zero, one has to assume it exists as a result of said event... though I guess it's possible Miguel didn't really know his ChronoHistory).

For Serge being called the Chrono Trigger, there's this line by Lucca if you show her the Time Egg on Opassa Beach:

The Time Egg...
The ancient sage, Gasper [sic],
once called it the Chrono
Trigger, you know!?
Each of us allows our
feelings to be a trigger...
Letting them loose changes
our world, time, and history!

Mh... so anybody who can change history is a Chrono Trigger? That seems... weird. It'd mean a good deal of the cast in Chrono Trigger were in fact Chrono Triggers. Not just the playable characters but even people like Dalton.

As for 7600 B.C., the Compendium originally did make this interpretation. It looks like I didn't make a page about the decision to make it 12,000 B.C., but I think it was because""

1. "10,000 years" is used elsewhere as a guesstimation;
2. Floating ice is shown in the Polis War, suggesting the Ice Age still hadn't completely ended;

Good points, yes. After all, the recording stating that Zeal could be a myth may be from before Chronopolis was sent back and also approximating (even though it states as fact that time was changed to stop Lavos while that other researcher from before the experiment seems to think any historical time travel is a myth).

3. "The awakening Lavos" line suggests that this was Lavos awaking at the Ocean Palace but in this timeline, perceiving the Time Crash, becoming aware of his future defeat, and using the Frozen Flame to introduce chaos into the timeline to try and prevent that defeat.

Could you elaborate on that?
I mean, if the change to the timeline allowing for Chronopolis to exist is Lavos' death, how would he bring it back?
Or is the idea that he did that in his death throes? (Perhaps aided by the experiment carried out in the future providing all the necessary energy while he only posed as a beacon?)

Also does this imply that the true end of the game is one in which Lavos is reached and slain in 12,000BC? Or is the theory that Zeal sends the heroes to 1999AD still commonly accepted? (With Lavos sending Chronopolis back to when the Ocean Palace incident occurred?)

These Chronopolis issues make me worried that if Chrono Break ever does materialize, the internal consistency will be bad enough to wreck all the beautiful consistent theory we've made for the existing games.

Tell me about it: I deal primarily with Zelda games and that happens all the darn time

[Kodokami]

3. "The awakening Lavos" line suggests that this was Lavos awaking at the Ocean Palace but in this timeline, perceiving the Time Crash, becoming aware of his future defeat, and using the Frozen Flame to introduce chaos into the timeline to try and prevent that defeat.

Could you elaborate on that?
I mean, if the change to the timeline allowing for Chronopolis to exist is Lavos' death, how would he bring it back?
Or is the idea that he did that in his death throes? (Perhaps aided by the experiment carried out in the future providing all the necessary energy while he only posed as a beacon?)

Also does this imply that the true end of the game is one in which Lavos is reached and slain in 12,000BC? Or is the theory that Zeal sends the heroes to 1999AD still commonly accepted? (With Lavos sending Chronopolis back to when the Ocean Palace incident occurred?)

I think the commonly accepted version of when Lavos is slain is at 1999 AD. Meaning that, in the new timeline in which Chronopolis is constructed, Lavos is still alive and kicking at 12000 BC. When Chronopolis subjects itself to the forces of time because of the Time Crash experiment, Lavos is able to interfere in the past.

[ZeaLitY]

Yeah, the belief goes that Lavos always awakens in the Ocean Palace from the Lavos Timeline forward, as Zeal always has the Mammon Machine and tries to activate it (thus causing their destruction). Lavos has a link with the Frozen Flame. The belief goes that when Lavos awoke in 12,000 B.C. to destroy Zeal, it was also the first awake moment of its existence since arriving on the planet, and this allowed it to "feel" the Frozen Flame in 2400 A.D. in the new future, post-Chrono Trigger. It interpreted that the very existence of Chronopolis and a human future with such technology meant it would be defeated and not succeed in reproducing, and thus it used the Flame to bring back Chronopolis to disrupt time. The planet then grabbed Dinopolis from another dimension, hoping to counteract this.

Lavos then destroyed Zeal and promptly went back to sleep.

For the second question, the year of Lavos's defeat was a hot topic due to the deprecated Pocket Dimension theory. It's now at http://chronocompendium.com/Term/Lavos_%28Defeat_Time%29.html

Once the PD theory was deprecated, all the weirdness about his shell was written off to gameplay mechanics, as Lavos's battle uses the same location in the ROM and the designers probably didn't want to bother with keeping track of what timelines the player had engaged him. (The designers probably also weren't keeping track of internal consistency this much.) 1999 A.D. was selected for jiving with other things (I seem to remember some quote in Cross...not sure), and for enabling the Armageddon-Branch theory, the only thing that seems to satisfy Serge's role in Home World's existence without rendering it a plot hole. The story in Cross is that Serge's existence (which can be interpreted to be the existence of Home World itself) caused the Dead Sea when the dimensions split. Since the Sea of Eden reflects the future thousands of years ahead of time (explained through the...well, it's whatever's first on the Salt for the Dead Sea article), the Dead Sea reflects a future in which Lavos destroys the planet again. The Armageddon-Branch theory asserts that while all of Another World's history until 1010 A.D. was copied to make Home World, its future time traveling and protected, immune temporal transforms were not, meaning no heroes arrived to challenge Lavos in 1999 A.D.

Otherwise, we're stuck with the nebulous "potentialities in the past cause shifts in the future," which ranks up there with Marle disappearing in 600 A.D. as kneecapping temporal logic. It's already so incredibly weird that the future is reflected in the Sea of Eden...

My confusion there is only as to what the term "Time Crash" should refer to since, regardless of dates, Miguel seems to imply that it was whatever caused the Dead Sea to come into existence (for the Tower of Geddon to be Time Crash Ground Zero, one has to assume it exists as a result of said event... though I guess it's possible Miguel didn't really know his ChronoHistory).

Ughhh, yeah. Just another thing that has to be sacrificed for the greater consistency, I guess, like those dialogue inconsistencies listed on the overall Plot_Inconsistencies page. With recent discussion on the subject, I do wonder now what a Cross retranslation would produce.

Wow though, it feels good to go over this. I'm reminded that the Compendium's true jewel, besides the encyclopedia, is its reconciliation of the Chrono series' internal consistency and documentation. So many beautiful history and regulars are tied up in those pages and ideas. Like GrayLensman, who came up with the AB theory in the first place...

[utunnels]

When I first ran into this, I thought "Oh well, someone in Home must have taken this to one of the islands in ancient times before the place got turned into the Dead Sea" (Luccia says it was "excavated near an ancient ruin"). Problem there is, Grobyc comes from Another, not Home.

I don't understand, don't the two timelines share the same history?

[Duke Serkol]

The belief goes that when Lavos awoke in 12,000 B.C. to destroy Zeal, it was also the first awake moment of its existence since arriving on the planet, and this allowed it to "feel" the Frozen Flame in 2400 A.D. in the new future, post-Chrono Trigger.
...

the year of Lavos's defeat
...
1999 A.D. was selected for jiving with other things (I seem to remember some quote in Cross...not sure), and for enabling the Armageddon-Branch theory, the only thing that seems to satisfy Serge's role in Home World's existence

Mh, but the thing I don't quite understand there is how this works in temporal mechanics.
If Lavos is defeated in 1999 AD, shouldn't the new timeline come into existence from that point onward, meaning that in 12000 BC Lavos looking into the future should see the one in which he destroys the world? Otherwise, wouldn't that indicate that the rest of Chrono's journey, culminating in the demise of Lavos, is already pre-determined (which, as I understand, is not how time travel should work in this series)?
Or do changes to the timeline spread not only forward in time but backwards as well? (Not sure how that would work...)

Since the Sea of Eden reflects the future thousands of years ahead of time (explained through the...well, it's whatever's first on the Salt for the Dead Sea article), the Dead Sea reflects a future in which Lavos destroys the planet again. The Armageddon-Branch theory asserts that while all of Another World's history until 1010 A.D. was copied to make Home World, its future time traveling and protected, immune temporal transforms were not, meaning no heroes arrived to challenge Lavos in 1999 A.D.

One thing I never quite understood about the Dead Sea though is why it does this. If the future in which Lavos destroys the world has been reinstated, why is it, at the same time, also "dumped" in the Dead Sea?
When I was playing the game, I thought the Dead Sea was a depository for all scrapped futures (while it seems that this is the function of the DBT instead), but I guess the reason it combines aspects of the Lavos dominated future with ruins of Chronopolis is simply because Chronopolis was already there. Though that still doesn't quite explain Diana's Bell (I'm pretty sure that was not in Chronopolis nor in the future Lavos destroyed).

Otherwise, we're stuck with the nebulous "potentialities in the past cause shifts in the future," which ranks up there with Marle disappearing in 600 A.D. as kneecapping temporal logic.

Yeah that struck me as nonsensical too <_<

With recent discussion on the subject, I do wonder now what a Cross retranslation would produce.

Indeed... it seems to me like such a retranslation could easily prove even more rewarding than that of Trigger (though it's perfectly possible that all inconsistencies were there to begin with, of coruse).

Wow though, it feels good to go over this. I'm reminded that the Compendium's true jewel, besides the encyclopedia, is its reconciliation of the Chrono series' internal consistency and documentation.

I'll say, it's really helped me make sense of things. Glad you too are having fun ^_^

When I first ran into this, I thought "Oh well, someone in Home must have taken this to one of the islands in ancient times before the place got turned into the Dead Sea" (Luccia says it was "excavated near an ancient ruin"). Problem there is, Grobyc comes from Another, not Home.

I don't understand, don't the two timelines share the same history?

Ah crap, that's right... disregard what I said >_<
I guess then that the best explanation for this issue is that there were two arms (left and right?) and one was taken outside Chronopolis in the distant past. Whether or not it gets excavated in both dimensions isn't really relevant I suppose.

[ZeaLitY]

Mh, but the thing I don't quite understand there is how this works in temporal mechanics.
If Lavos is defeated in 1999 AD, shouldn't the new timeline come into existence from that point onward, meaning that in 12000 BC Lavos looking into the future should see the one in which he destroys the world? Otherwise, wouldn't that indicate that the rest of Chrono's journey, culminating in the demise of Lavos, is already pre-determined (which, as I understand, is not how time travel should work in this series)?
Or do changes to the timeline spread not only forward in time but backwards as well? (Not sure how that would work...)

Ah, okay. The Compendium's belief is that when a timeline is changed, from the perspective of Time Error, it's like an entire new timeline coming into existence. Time is only really changed from the point of change onwards in the future, yeah. So Lavos at the Ocean Palace before Chrono Trigger is finished would perceive the destruction of 1999 A.D., while after it's finished, would see the saved future.

But yes, you're right about the overall problem. Chrono Cross introduced this with the Sea of Eden, which apparently lets you gaze at the future despite being in the past, causing unbelievable predetermination problems. The Compendium's rigid position is that nothing happens in time until you change it (I think we called it Flow principle or something). This is the thematic imperative of the series! You can't hope or wish; you have to have strength and go defeat Lavos and change history for the better. So having the Sea of Eden reflect a future thousands of years before its due, well, what in the fuck? So Lavos perceiving his demise in Keystone T-2 and onward is an exception to help incorporate the exception. Nasty, nasty business.

One thing I never quite understood about the Dead Sea though is why it does this. If the future in which Lavos destroys the world has been reinstated, why is it, at the same time, also "dumped" in the Dead Sea?
When I was playing the game, I thought the Dead Sea was a depository for all scrapped futures (while it seems that this is the function of the DBT instead), but I guess the reason it combines aspects of the Lavos dominated future with ruins of Chronopolis is simply because Chronopolis was already there. Though that still doesn't quite explain Diana's Bell (I'm pretty sure that was not in Chronopolis nor in the future Lavos destroyed).

Ah, yeah. From Salt for the Dead Sea, we guessed that:

As we can see, the Dead Sea isn't really a ruin version of Chronopolis, but it is more like a version of a time freeze, except an entire time period is condensed into a small time freeze. We can come to these conclusions through looking at the Dead Sea itself. All the water there is solidified, frozen in time. There are still things moving around there, however, so the place is not a perfect time freeze. It's an enigma. From the quote, however, we can see that the Tower of Geddon is a mesh of many structures from 2400 AD, including Company 2400 (which we can guess was just some big corporation in the future), as it was a ruined future that was condensed there.

But you're right...why is Miguel calling it a future that wasn't allowed to exist? When the entire plot point is that Serge's existence causes this future to exist! ...ughhhhhhhhhhh. It seems to just be a massive dialogue inconsistency. We have:

[Lucca]
   But Nadia's Bell will
   never be heard again...
   Never...

   We...
   No... Everyone worked to
   save the planet's future
   for nothing...
   It's all because of you!
   You killed it!
   You...!!!
   
   So many lives were
   supposed to be saved...
   This planet was to be healed
   with love, hope, and dreams...!
 
 [Marle]
   How could you?
   How could you do
   such a thing...!?
   It's all your fault that
   the world is going to
   end up like this!
   It's all your fault, Serge!!!
 
 [Crono]
   Murderer!!!

That sets it up as the ruined future, resurrected by Serge. Then we have Miguel calling it an "averted timeline". And then later, Miguel says it's the true form, but it was averted and is about to be restored.

All right, I'm starting to remember some old discussions. I think at one point we thought that perhaps the formation of Home World let the Dead Sea be a place of least resistance, and so the averted future wound up there. And we had other ideas... I think I remember, now. We chose this way of reflecting the future, despite the talk of it being averted, because Miguel states that it's going to be resurrected because of Serge (implying that it's only "averted" in a meta sense when analyzing Chrono Trigger and from the position of 1020 A.D., while it certainly does exist 1999 A.D. and after). And so this was just the tidiest solution to the problem. Whew.

As for the Lynx thing, I remember a hot topic was, "Was there only one Lynx?" But I can't find a page for it. I guess the consensus was never written down. I think the settled idea was "yes" (if only because there's on explicit evidence of two existing), or, "no, there were two, but one sacrificed himself to lead the Acacia Dragoons to the Dead Sea." I don't think that's accurate, since I don't remember seeing Lynx frozen with the others there.

[Duke Serkol]

Ah, okay. The Compendium's belief is that when a timeline is changed, from the perspective of Time Error, it's like an entire new timeline coming into existence. Time is only really changed from the point of change onwards in the future, yeah. So Lavos at the Ocean Palace before Chrono Trigger is finished would perceive the destruction of 1999 A.D., while after it's finished, would see the saved future.

Mh, I see... personally, I think I like the "done while in death throes" solution better, but I understand why the majority may prefer the above.

But yes, you're right about the overall problem. Chrono Cross introduced this with the Sea of Eden, which apparently lets you gaze at the future despite being in the past, causing unbelievable predetermination problems.

Does this supposedly apply only to the area around Chronopolis? Or the whole of El Nido? (I ask because the area in general was said to have been picked by the creators of the facility because of its unusual properties and Belthasar says "Originally the whole Archipelago of El Nido was known as the Sea of Eden. This was because it was where the Dragon Gods resided.").
If it did apply to all El Nido it would explain how the place has a reliable fortune teller, I guess.

You can't hope or wish; you have to have strength and go defeat Lavos and change history for the better. So having the Sea of Eden reflect a future thousands of years before its due, well, what in the fuck?
...
why is Miguel calling it a future that wasn't allowed to exist? When the entire plot point is that Serge's existence causes this future to exist!

Unless perhaps the Dead Sea is not reflecting the future to come but ones that no longer are. I hadn't thought of this when writing the previous post, but consider: even if Serge's survival results in a separate time continuum that cancels out Crono's actions in 1999, it still won't be the very same exact future... for the simple reason that Serge is still alive. Unless he was not supposed to die in the pre-Trigger timeline, that makes for a difference. Perhaps a small one, perhaps a huge one (depending on what he and his eventual descendants do) but a difference nonetheless. So it could be that the future we see in the Dead Sea is the one averted by Crono, but that a separate yet nearly identical (equally destroyed by Lavos) one is being reinstated.
This would also help explain the "Company 2400" sign as being part of the future Chronopolis came from (I'd forgotten about that too, clearly it's not from the one in which human civilization was halted by Lavos in 1999), a future also scrapped now thanks to Serge (and possibly Nadia's Bell too which I guess became an historical site or something in the future of Chronopolis).

By the way, what's the origin of the name Keystone dimension?

I think at one point we thought that perhaps the formation of Home World let the Dead Sea be a place of least resistance, and so the averted future wound up there.

He does say as the place is blowing up:

Miguel:
   This lost future is about to
   disappear into the darkness
   beyond the dimensions again...

So it does seem like some of the discarded timelines that ended up in the DBT (dimensions? What the heck?) were "temporarily" dumped into the Dead Sea... for some reason (which the game never bothers to explain really >_<)

On that note, I'd also like to submit a crazy little theory for your amusement. Knowing that at some point in the development of the story Serge was destined to become one with the Time Devourer and consequently this would have been the reason his continued existence was bad news for the world, could it then be that the Dead Sea was (is?) essentially the Time Devourer's "dining table"?
...okay, this made more sense when it was still in my head.
Nonetheless, it seems kind of pointless and redundant for a certain bunch of characters to make such a big fuss about Serge unintentionally creating a separate doomed dimension when 1) the original dimension they did save is still as it was and 2) they both, along with any other dimensions, are going to be eaten by the Time Devourer anyway.
...heck, considering that Lavos was just going to eat reproduce and then leave allowing the planet to eventually recover (according to Mother Brain) without threatening the rest of the multiverse (if not one planet at a time), I'd say Serge made a little slip up by staying alive compared to what Crono did by actively going after Lavos.

As for the Lynx thing, I remember a hot topic was, "Was there only one Lynx?" But I can't find a page for it. I guess the consensus was never written down. I think the settled idea was "yes" (if only because there's on explicit evidence of two existing), or, "no, there were two, but one sacrificed himself to lead the Acacia Dragoons to the Dead Sea." I don't think that's accurate, since I don't remember seeing Lynx frozen with the others there.

Uh, I don't remember mentioning this, but I did wonder about that after the end of the game. Considering that while the split occurred because Schala intervened to save Serge, he did live on in both dimensions until Lynx drowned him in Another, and up to that point they are supposed to have identical histories, this would mean a Lynx had to have come into existence in both worlds (with Kid stopping the one in Home from killing Serge).
But yeah, I too upon reading the theory that the reason we don't see him in Home is he may have gotten frozen in time with the Dragoons was rather perplexed.
Not only because I don't recall seeing him there either (nor Harle for that matter?) but also because... isn't the avatar of FATE supposed to know that this is what would happen? (Unless perhaps the destruction of Home FATE cut him off and desperate to find out what had happened he carelessly went there with the Dragoons).

[utunnels]

There are some special cases of duplications. For example the dragons, which are unique in both of the two worlds.

Considering that while the split occurred because Schala intervened to save Serge, he did live on in both dimensions until Lynx drowned him in Another, and up to that point they are supposed to have identical histories, this would mean a Lynx had to have come into existence in both worlds (with Kid stopping the one in Home from killing Serge).

Yes, or at least, there used to be two, the other was removed as duplicate data by Fate or whatever mechanics.
Think about that, Chronoplis is unique, so does Fate and Miguel. I have a feeling Lynx should be unique too.

Edit*

Just my guess. It would be more convenient to think there were two Lynxes, unless you want to believe the same Lynx and Harle(unique or not) traveled across the dimensions to abduct Lucca and ended up in the same mistake.

[Duke Serkol]

There are some special cases of duplications. For example the dragons, which are unique in both of the two worlds.

Ah, but wasn't it said in an interview that while the dragons were in fact duplicated, one of each "pair" was arranged by FATE to be killed off? (Though it seems even the fairies in Another don't realize that their dragon is in fact dead and not just sealed off beyond a magical wall)
For that matter, it isn't really clear to me, if the dragons are all parts of a single artificial entity, why then there's an incubator in Fort Dragonia, or how they were able to lay eggs in the first place.

Think about that, Chronoplis is unique, so does Fate and Miguel. I have a feeling Lynx should be unique too.

But Chronopolis has been unique only since the Dead Sea formed. Before then, it presumably existed in both worlds.
And would you list Kid and Harle among those as well?

It would be more convenient to think there were two Lynxes, unless you want to believe the same Lynx and Harle(unique or not) traveled across the dimensions to abduct Lucca and ended up in the same mistake.

Ah, guess Kid's not part of that list then.
Makes sense since the only way that could happen is if, for some reason, when the worlds split Kid wasn't duplicated along with everything else.

[ZeaLitY]

Does this supposedly apply only to the area around Chronopolis? Or the whole of El Nido?

Just the area around Chronopolis (the theory was originally developed to help explain the Dead Sea, which is contained in only that space). It also seems thematically important and very difficult to reach the Sea of Eden, due to the poisonous reefs, etc.

By the way, what's the origin of the name Keystone dimension?

Hm, what you wrote before this is a good idea. I can't wait for the next analysis review. "Keystone" Dimension & Timelines was just something I made up since it's the principal dimension that the games take place in.

Nonetheless, it seems kind of pointless and redundant for a certain bunch of characters to make such a big fuss about Serge unintentionally creating a separate doomed dimension when 1) the original dimension they did save is still as it was and 2) they both, along with any other dimensions, are going to be eaten by the Time Devourer anyway.

Yeah, I wish the Ghost Children would have been explained more. It also seemed inconsistent that they appeared in "chibi" forms or whatever. Were they really the deceased Chrono crew? Were they manifestations of the planet? Were they created by Belthasar, ghosts like the other Chronopolis staff workers? Sigh. Considering the evidence that Crono and Marle didn't die in the Fall of Guardia, the latter two explanations seem right, and yet, they definitely do seem to be Crono, Marle, and Lucca. They know things only the real people would know. So frustrating.

There are some special cases of duplications. For example the dragons, which are unique in both of the two worlds.

Considering that while the split occurred because Schala intervened to save Serge, he did live on in both dimensions until Lynx drowned him in Another, and up to that point they are supposed to have identical histories, this would mean a Lynx had to have come into existence in both worlds (with Kid stopping the one in Home from killing Serge).

Yes, or at least, there used to be two, the other was removed as duplicate data by Fate or whatever mechanics.
Think about that, Chronoplis is unique, so does Fate and Miguel. I have a feeling Lynx should be unique too.

Edit*

Just my guess. It would be more convenient to think there were two Lynxes, unless you want to believe the same Lynx and Harle(unique or not) traveled across the dimensions to abduct Lucca and ended up in the same mistake.

Ah, yeah. There was an interview in which Kato stated that there were two Miguels, and the other was "removed". Our logic goes that the Dragons weren't duplicated because they were always just projections from the Darkness Beyond Time, of which the underlying being never was duplicated. So it's possible Lynx was duplicated, but the other was just removed...

[utunnels]

Ah, guess Kid's not part of that list then.

A guy in Home Arni tells you the rumor of Radical Dreamers. So unless that is just another organization happens to have the same name...or they dreamt a dream generated by the Record of Fate, maybe just like the one Serge dreamt in the beginning of the game.

According to the Ultimania, in another World Kid was saved by Serge (using Time Egg) but in Home World her fate was known to us (yeah, good material for fanfic writers).

[Kodokami]

In the Ultimania interview, Kato confirms that there are/were two versions of each Kid, Lynx, and the seven Dragons Gods. Six of the dragons were killed off (presumably by FATE); Home World's Lynx and Harle disappear in the Dead Sea along with the Dragoons (however, they are not present with the Dragoons in-game); and Home World's Kid is thieving on the Zenan mainland.

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Ultimania_Interview.html

So much was not explained efficiently or at all in the game. And while Kato's words would be most authoritative, a lot of his answers simply don't make sense (wtf is with the second moon? ugh). I think everything should be taken with a grain of salt; Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross are games afterall, not novels. The creators simply did not have the time to explain it all.

One thing I never understood is why some characters could cross dimensions, as I thought there had to be a missing piece (the alternate self nonexistent or dead) in the other world? At least I think that's what I remember Belthasar say...

[utunnels]

Yeah, the fragment of the moon really blew me away at first.