Author Topic: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?  (Read 9011 times)

alfadorredux

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Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2011, 12:50:09 pm »
At the risk of being a pest, what doesn't work for me in the back design is the lack of texture inside the yellow. What I had more in mind was this:



Alternatively, different bevels with some amount of glow might give this:




or this:



My twiddling around also produced this:



which I thought was kind of cool, but maybe a bit much.

Your last design also pretty much works, but strikes me as a bit of a cop-out.  :|

tushantin

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Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2011, 02:35:59 pm »
The bevel doesn't bug me, Alfy, I think it looks great. I simply try to strike a balance between subtlety, minimalism and vibrancy. My actual problem is that I'm still not satisfied with the design. Something simply seems... off. It's probably because I'm affected by Alcyone's perfectionism, but it's a good thing (for the art, not me).

The previous design was horrible. The newer design looked bland. Then the third "Steam Punk" design involved plenty of cuts here and there to make it look "just right". But it still doesn't seem right, and I'm still not getting good suggestions on it. What's missing? Gaaah!! I might simply "redo" the design, an artist's biggest frustration.

If you like, here's the non-steampunkish cut card to work your bevel on, or anything else entirely:


tushantin

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Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2011, 03:38:48 pm »
Here's an even better design! Damn, I'm good!

@Alfy: If you wanna bevel this, make sure the clock-hands are on the separate layer, so they don't mix with others.


alfadorredux

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Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2011, 06:01:10 pm »
The C is very obviously off-center vertically in your latest effort—either you need to move it down, or provide another (smallish) element down near the bottom for vertical balance.

Anyway, if we decide we want the bevel in the final version (if anyone even cares what the backs look like besides the two of us), I'll separate the clock hands before preparing a final—doing it for each test version would increase the amount of time involved by an order of magnitude. (Current method: autotrace image in Inkscape, delete everything except the yellow path, play with filters.)

xcalibur

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Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
« Reply #64 on: November 07, 2011, 12:42:08 am »
Oh, I'm entirely on the same page; we should definitely hash this out as much as possible. I have a lot less attachment to my choices than a very cohesive deck that does justice to both stories. :D And anyway, it's great to discuss this with someone who knows so much about tarot! The list as it stands now is thoughtful and appropriate; but I think that arguing certain points will help us chose the best candidates, and point to ways we can help the artists depict the cards in a symbolically appropriate manner.

I'm still trying to ponder out our Guru problem. I don't like the Magician as Belthasar either, all things told. Brrr, this is difficult.

Indeed, and thanks.

I liked your idea of having the Aces as significant items, but I used a few different items in my list! Still, it could work. We could have the zeal sapling as the Ace of Cups instead of the Pendant, since I think that works too well as the Star (explanation at the bottom). Ruby Knife would work fine as the Ace of Swords. There are no issues with the Gate Key as Ace of Wands, so that brings us to the Ace of Pentacles. I could use Black Omen for the Moon and avoid any conflict. On the other hand, Dreamstone could just as easily fit as the Moon.

I just had another idea for the aces - perhaps the Rainbow Shell or Prismshard could be the Ace of Pentacles, then Dreamstone could be assigned to Moon. also, we could use either the future Seed or the Zeal Sapling for the ace of cups.

tushantin

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Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
« Reply #65 on: November 07, 2011, 04:41:42 am »
The C is very obviously off-center vertically in your latest effort—either you need to move it down, or provide another (smallish) element down near the bottom for vertical balance.
XD I did that on purpose. I liked the negative space at the bottom. Was thinking I'd put Guardia and Zeal crests there, but unfortunately they look horrible.

(Current method: autotrace image in Inkscape, delete everything except the yellow path, play with filters.)
Wait a sec, so you did the bevel via Inkscape?

alfadorredux

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Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
« Reply #66 on: November 07, 2011, 08:38:13 am »
Unfortunately, balance considerations trump just about everything else if you want the result to look good.

Yes, Inkscape—surely you didn't think I redrew that card four times by hand! Since version 0.46 or thereabouts, the bevels have been available under the "Filters" menu. Be warned that scrolling/zooming an image with a filter visibly applied inside Inkscape is extremely slow (there's a setting in the View menu to not show them, IIRC).

tushantin

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Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
« Reply #67 on: November 07, 2011, 11:05:33 am »
Yeah, Inkscape blends and filters take too much processing power because they're vector based, hence why I don't use em.

Anywhos, I'll put the C in between when I get home. Until then, anyone is free to make suggestions!

Syna

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Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
« Reply #68 on: November 07, 2011, 03:12:25 pm »
I'm seeing your point regarding Mother Brain as the Hierophant; equitable representation would be ideal. I'm going to do some research on the cards in question and see if I can come up with some kind of solution to the Guru problem. I do know that sometimes the cards go by other names, and maybe one of these alternate interpretations can help us make a decision.

Regarding the Empress card:

This

Quote
While it's not an ideal matchup, I can't think of anyone else for that card (mother brain wouldn't fit). For that matter, I can't think of where else to place Azala in the trumps, and she should be represented as the other major personality of prehistory.

is a very good point, and would be my primary reason for choosing Azala. Again, your desire to make the time periods more equitable is well-taken and I agree that somehow or another the Prehistoric and Future eras need more representation.

The issue is for me that Azala isn't very Empress-like. She's a female authority figure, but that's where the similarity ends, for the most part. The empress is traditionally depicted as Venus, and is about motherhood-- fertility, nurturing capacities--- and abundance, as well as  sensuality and beauty. All of those are qualities that fit Queen Leene: she is a symbol in the Middle Ages for the continuance of the Kingdom of Guardia, famed for her beauty, and acts as the classic courtly inspiration for Cyrus and Glenn to fight. Her mentorship of Marle also places her in a mothering role.

Azala's species, on the other hand, suffers a rousing defeat at the hands of the humans, which is the opposite of fertility and motherhood and creation. She would make a near-perfect reverse Empress, but as it stands she strikes me as a stretch-- she's more of an Emperor, threatening and domineering.

So one way to solve this would be to tweak the card: let's see if there is anything in the traditional symbolism we can emphasize to make Azala a better fit.

Quote
I just had another idea for the aces - perhaps the Rainbow Shell or Prismshard could be the Ace of Pentacles, then Dreamstone could be assigned to Moon. also, we could use either the future Seed or the Zeal Sapling for the ace of cups..

Ohh, that might work well, because I can't see the Rainbow Shell fitting neatly into any of the Trumps. I like the idea of a seed for Ace of Cups; I do prefer the pendant to be depicted in the Star. The pendant really deserves to be on a Trump in one way or another.

tushantin

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Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
« Reply #69 on: November 07, 2011, 04:06:15 pm »
@Alfy, and Angerona: How's this? Personally, I'm not fond of bevels, but contours are better than flat, I suppose.


alfadorredux

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Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
« Reply #70 on: November 07, 2011, 07:48:43 pm »
@tush: Looks much better to me. Balance is good, and the moderate contour bevel is enough to separate the clock hands from the edges of C—given that and the thinner yellow frame, the fancy metallic bevel I did isn't really necessary.

xcalibur

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Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
« Reply #71 on: November 08, 2011, 04:01:36 am »
I'm seeing your point regarding Mother Brain as the Hierophant; equitable representation would be ideal. I'm going to do some research on the cards in question and see if I can come up with some kind of solution to the Guru problem. I do know that sometimes the cards go by other names, and maybe one of these alternate interpretations can help us make a decision.

Indeed. another alternative would be to place Queen Zeal as Hierophant, if we really wanted her as a Trump. the arguments in favor are 1. her high degree of power, and 2. she's a link between Lavos and the world, just as the Hierophant links the spiritual and secular. But other than that, it's a stretch. The Hierophant is about community and tradition, while Queen Zeal destroys both in her addiction to Lavos. We'll probably end up incorporating her into the Tower.

Quote
Regarding the Empress card:

This is a very good point, and would be my primary reason for choosing Azala. Again, your desire to make the time periods more equitable is well-taken and I agree that somehow or another the Prehistoric and Future eras need more representation.

Yes, I don't want any eras to be neglected. Several selections apply across the eras, such as Epoch or Time Gate, but time-specific selections should be as varied as possible.

Quote
The issue is for me that Azala isn't very Empress-like. She's a female authority figure, but that's where the similarity ends, for the most part. The empress is traditionally depicted as Venus, and is about motherhood-- fertility, nurturing capacities--- and abundance, as well as  sensuality and beauty. All of those are qualities that fit Queen Leene: she is a symbol in the Middle Ages for the continuance of the Kingdom of Guardia, famed for her beauty, and acts as the classic courtly inspiration for Cyrus and Glenn to fight. Her mentorship of Marle also places her in a mothering role.

Azala's species, on the other hand, suffers a rousing defeat at the hands of the humans, which is the opposite of fertility and motherhood and creation. She would make a near-perfect reverse Empress, but as it stands she strikes me as a stretch-- she's more of an Emperor, threatening and domineering.

So one way to solve this would be to tweak the card: let's see if there is anything in the traditional symbolism we can emphasize to make Azala a better fit.

These are very strong points, more solid than my attempts to justify. I was thinking that Azala would fit better as Emperor, but she's female! A female emperor would be very unorthodox, especially since the card is about masculine authority. We could have the King and Queen of Guardia as Emperor and Empress, with Azala as the Queen of Wands or Swords in the Minor Arcana. It seems that whatever choice is made, there's going to be some compromise or sacrifice.

Likewise, the Guru issue is not going to be easy.

Quote
Ohh, that might work well, because I can't see the Rainbow Shell fitting neatly into any of the Trumps. I like the idea of a seed for Ace of Cups; I do prefer the pendant to be depicted in the Star. The pendant really deserves to be on a Trump in one way or another.

That's my line of thought. keeping with consistency, if the Sun Stone is referenced on Lucca's card, I'd want the Rainbow Shell to appear somewhere. The Sun Stone being on a Trump, and the Rainbow Shell being on an Ace is justified by the fact that the Sun Stone was more significant as the power source of Zeal.

Ace of Swords - Ruby Knife
Ace of Wands - Gate Key
Ace of Cups - Zeal Sapling/Future Seed
Ace of Pentacles - Rainbow Shell

I think we can stick with these!

Referring back to what I was saying before, as we work with the Major Arcana, we'll have to balance it with the Court Cards. Most of the current choices are pretty good. However, I'm not sure about Kino as King of Cups. He did fight the Reptites, and came through in the end with the Dactyls, but most Chrono fans don't find him too cool or memorable. Although he would be further representation of prehistory, I was thinking of placing Cyrus or someone else there.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 04:04:54 am by xcalibur »

Katie Skyye

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Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
« Reply #72 on: November 08, 2011, 09:26:15 pm »
Can I have the .psd for that image so I can mess with it, too? :D

tushantin

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Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
« Reply #73 on: November 09, 2011, 05:50:01 am »
However, I'm not sure about Kino as King of Cups. He did fight the Reptites, and came through in the end with the Dactyls, but most Chrono fans don't find him too cool or memorable. Although he would be further representation of prehistory, I was thinking of placing Cyrus or someone else there.
I object! Kino is THA BOSS! Although Cyrus is cool too. Something tells me Cyrus would rather be a King of Swords rather.

Can I have the .psd for that image so I can mess with it, too? :D
Sure! Here you go. Two things to keep in mind, though:

1) I'm using GIMP, and took advantage of its unique blend-modes. Unfortunately, exporting to PSD had compatibility problems, so I tried to tweak stuff around to keep the feel. Not exactly as I rendered it, but close enough.

2) Lots and lots of unwanted, hidden layers. Beware, it's mess!  :lol:

xcalibur

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Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
« Reply #74 on: November 09, 2011, 10:40:11 am »
However, I'm not sure about Kino as King of Cups. He did fight the Reptites, and came through in the end with the Dactyls, but most Chrono fans don't find him too cool or memorable. Although he would be further representation of prehistory, I was thinking of placing Cyrus or someone else there.
I object! Kino is THA BOSS! Although Cyrus is cool too. Something tells me Cyrus would rather be a King of Swords rather.

looking back, 600ad is over-represented in the court cards as is. We can go with Kino then.