Author Topic: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?  (Read 7651 times)

-LzR-

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2010, 05:07:19 pm »
Man, you guys play through CT; play through CC and every other single incarnation of CT and you still skip over the obvious explanation: They were only killed off in one or two dimensions. Given that for everything that happens, there are at least a million different ways the course can go, the operative theme of CC was an infinite amount of dimensions, though you really only travel between two, due to Serge's special case.

It has been hinted at that Marle and Crono escaped through time. Who is to say that the next crono game doesnt mix the themes of CT and CC in one game and have time traveling and dimension hopping? They could still bring back the full Crono team for it without having to worry about plot holes or paradox, cover up the openings they left at the end of the remakes of CT, as well as the openings left in CC, all in one fell swoop.

This is actually true. One of the awesome things in Chrono games is the ability to see everything get destroyed, everyone die and still save them by all kinds of randoms ways.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2010, 05:15:19 am »
Exactly. Serge died, it didn't seem to stop him from getting his own game. :P
And Trigger killed Crono first. Don't forget it.

The series is built with so many backdoors, literally any fanboy can say what they wanted to happen is what happened.

:D Why were they killed? So you would get pissed and not accept it as "reality" within the game's context, and embrace the concept of multiple dimensions.

Hell, Trigger even supports this just by having multiple endings the way they're set up.


Was he trying to troll the fans of Chrono Trigger?

In a word, probably.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 05:19:16 am by Mr Bekkler »

idioticidioms

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2010, 09:37:39 am »
Rick Rolls hadn't been invented, yet.

-LzR-

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2010, 12:32:34 pm »
Yes, but Robo rolls were.

Manly Man

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2010, 07:36:10 pm »
Hnnngh, they did that on purpose. I haven't heard anything that comes any more pleasingly close in similarity than those two songs, except maybe the Ghostbusters' theme and 'I Want A New Drug.' But those don't count, they aren't viral enough.

Manco

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2010, 07:37:35 am »
I was pretty sure it was Gaspar, but I was wrong. My theory makes better sense with Balthasar anyway.

Belthasar and Gaspar look nothing alike and Gaspar didn't make the Epoch or the Neo-Epoch.

idioticidioms

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2010, 07:46:10 am »
I know that. Thank you. I'm not a complete dumbass. I had it in my head that it was Gaspar. I know they don't look alike.

Syna

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2010, 05:43:31 pm »
My take is that Kato is interested in darkness. His games are typically quite dark, and 12,000 BC - for which Kato is solely responsible - is the darkest part of CT. It is also the most enduring and brilliant part of Chrono Trigger. But it is largely so, I believe, because it is the darkest and most dramatic part of a story which is otherwise very hopeful and optimistic. The contributions of the other members of the team complemented 12,000 BC and allowed it to be as impacting as it was.

In short, in CC, Kato was director of his own project and had to share less of the spotlight with others; and so he had to edit himself less, which can be fatal for a storyteller, no matter how capable they are. It was, imho, such a bad thing because although 12,000 BC is so meaningful and amazing and is, in fact, my favorite part of any video game ever, IT IS NOT ALL THERE IS TO CT.

(Also, judging by CC, Kato either lost everything he knew about how to plot a video game scenario effectively or didn't have one of the CT guys helping him. It is ironic to me that Chrono Trigger has such a beautiful, simple, elegant, symmetrical plot while the plot of its sequel is an unholy mess. But that's neither here nor there...)

Personally, I will always admire Kato for his contribution to CT and for some truly brilliant moments in CC, but I don't buy that whole growing up and taking things seriously means darkness meme. To me, so much of what's stayed with me about CT was how sweet and poignant it is, how much hope it offers. As I grow older, it means even more than it used to.

(I don't mean to be terribly down on CC. I love Kato, I love Schala, and moments of CC are just incredible, like the ending. But I do believe he dropped the ball in a big way with this sequel.)

Lennis

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2011, 08:17:34 am »
In storytelling, it is always best to find that perfect balance between fantasy and realism.  Chrono Trigger clearly leaned toward fantasy, and though I adored the game as a whole, there were still some aspects of CT that bothered me.  The year 1000 A.D. was a little too peaceful.  We knew nothing about Guardia's founding or why it was important enough to establish its own calendar.  Getting the clone of Crono was WAY too easy and anti-climatic.  And the ending was much too light-hearted and irresponsible - bringing people from multiple time-periods to party at the Millennial Fair strained credibility.  It may be that Kato felt the same way and sought to address those shortcomings in Chrono Cross.  But he went too far.

Chrono Cross is a tragic story, and I don't fault Kato for that - for that is clearly what he was aiming for.  But in crafting his tragedy, he either forgot or discounted the fairy tale that served as Cross' foundation.  He forgot that a story is fundamentally about character, and essentially killing off the previous cast that had made such an impact in the world made everything seem hollow and pointless.  The way Cross ended also made us wonder what it was all for.  Did Schala reset history?  Did she create a new reality?  Does life go on, or does the story end?  Going too far down the realism path can do the story a disservice.

It is for these reasons that I believe that the entire story should be remade, combining Cross' penchant for tragedy and consequence with Trigger's optimism and heart.  For every mistake, there is a consequence, but also the possibility of redemption.  Chrono isn't about time-travel or dimension-hopping.  It is about the human spirit rising up to take command of its own destiny.  It has now been 12 years since Chrono Cross.  There is no reason why we can't take the lessons of both original titles and create a definitive vision of this deeply human story.


Syna

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2011, 01:00:37 pm »
I agree with you completely, Lennis, even with your CT criticisms... My main objection to the tragedy of CC is that it undermines the hopefulness of CT, rather than a dislike for tragedy for its own sake. I think tragedy can be wonderful... and it's even very appropriate that CC brings out some of the darkness of CT's implications. I'd be fine with it being a darker game... I just wish that in this case, it didn't come at the expense of that rare pure joy in CT, you know? Because it really seems to go out of its way to undercut what CT has to say.

I respect that Kato wanted CC to be its own standalone game, but he linked the stories up inextricably. CC simply makes no sense outside of CT, and like a rebellious kid, it resists CT's influence when it does not need to.

This is especially tragic to me because CC can be an incredibly fascinating and nuanced game in its own right. It has some truly heartstopping moments-- the Temporal Vortex, Nadia's Bell, the ending...

Quote
Chrono isn't about time-travel or dimension-hopping.  It is about the human spirit rising up to take command of its own destiny.

Absolutely.

I've actually tossed around the idea of writing a CC "reimagining" for a long time. This is inspiring me to actually do it, though I'd prefer a remake too!
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 01:10:41 pm by Syna »

Lennis

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2011, 10:56:13 pm »
Absolutely.

I've actually tossed around the idea of writing a CC "reimagining" for a long time. This is inspiring me to actually do it, though I'd prefer a remake too!

I've actually already begun that, though it's still in its infancy.

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Fanfiction.html

Some of the changes I have planned for my version of Chrono Trigger will make the events of Chrono Cross unfold differently.  Playing with canon can be risky, but the potential rewards are too enticing not to try.  I had a crazy idea a few weeks ago that seemed ridiculous to even think about, but now think it might be the key to making this whole project work - and stay true to the spirit of canon.  I won't give it away, but it's safe to say it will create quite a bit of discussion - perhaps heated - when the revelation is made.

Lady Marle

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2011, 04:07:40 pm »
Chrono Cross is a tragic story, and I don't fault Kato for that - for that is clearly what he was aiming for.  But in crafting his tragedy, he either forgot or discounted the fairy tale that served as Cross' foundation.  He forgot that a story is fundamentally about character, and essentially killing off the previous cast that had made such an impact in the world made everything seem hollow and pointless.  The way Cross ended also made us wonder what it was all for.  Did Schala reset history?  Did she create a new reality?  Does life go on, or does the story end?  Going too far down the realism path can do the story a disservice.

It is for these reasons that I believe that the entire story should be remade, combining Cross' penchant for tragedy and consequence with Trigger's optimism and heart.  For every mistake, there is a consequence, but also the possibility of redemption.  Chrono isn't about time-travel or dimension-hopping.  It is about the human spirit rising up to take command of its own destiny.  It has now been 12 years since Chrono Cross.  There is no reason why we can't take the lessons of both original titles and create a definitive vision of this deeply human story.


I agree completely. I understand the purpose, even though I was HIGHLY upset when I first played through CC. If nothing else, I think CT and CC have an amazing commentary on the human spirit as a whole. I agree also that the premises of either Schala resetting time or Crono and Marle having escaped through some sort of gate to emerge in another game may prove interesting. Hell, they could pull an Riku from Kingdom Hearts bit even in another game for a nice little twist. Who knows... I would like to see some sort of follow up with the original cast though, even if they were NPCs in the new game.   

Syna

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2011, 08:01:50 pm »
I've actually already begun that, though it's still in its infancy.

Whoa, that's an incredibly ambitious project! And one that would really add to the community-- some of the theories here are easily as good as anything Kato could come up with. (I'll give it a read!)

I feel that it's easy to get stuck in the "concretist fallacy" when dealing with a beloved series. Like religious fundamentalists who pay attention to the literal meaning of a sacred text in all cases, you forget that ideally, these works inspire you. They're not to be slavishly adhered to. So, while messing with canon should be approached with appropriate trepidation, I am very much for it.

I may yet do my own re-imagining, simply because I've had ideas kicking around about it for years and I feel a desire of my own to create something that expresses something about my relationship with the Crono series. Mine would be strictly CC, though.

Sajainta

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2011, 06:27:59 am »
I agree completely. I understand the purpose, even though I was HIGHLY upset when I first played through CC. If nothing else, I think CT and CC have an amazing commentary on the human spirit as a whole. I agree also that the premises of either Schala resetting time or Crono and Marle having escaped through some sort of gate to emerge in another game may prove interesting.

Have you seen the YouTube videos for Crimson Echoes?

Lady Marle

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2011, 05:14:11 pm »
I agree completely. I understand the purpose, even though I was HIGHLY upset when I first played through CC. If nothing else, I think CT and CC have an amazing commentary on the human spirit as a whole. I agree also that the premises of either Schala resetting time or Crono and Marle having escaped through some sort of gate to emerge in another game may prove interesting.

Have you seen the YouTube videos for Crimson Echoes?


Yes, I have. It's why I cried when I heard it was C&Ded cause it worked with such theories.