Author Topic: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?  (Read 7654 times)

Iyellalot

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Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« on: December 09, 2010, 03:08:39 pm »
This has always bugged me.

What exactly was Kato trying to accomplish when he killed of the main cast of Chrono Trigger in Chrono Cross?

Was he trying to prove that his own characters were better than the ones he didn't create? If that's true, than he's guilty of creating blatant Mary Sues/Marty Stus.

Was he trying to evoke an emotional response? Maybe, but that didn't mean he had to kill everyone, just a single character could have sufficed.

Was he trying to troll the fans of Chrono Trigger?

maggiekarp

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2010, 03:20:12 pm »
The short answer is that Chrono Cross tried to accomplish a lot with its narrative but didn't really do it right.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2010, 11:44:12 pm »
Only Lucca and Robo really die; evidence strongly points to Crono and Marle being alive: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Fates_of_the_Chrono_Trigger_Team.html#Crono_and_Marle

ShoeMagus

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2010, 04:02:28 am »
Why not? Its pretty compelling knowing that beloved characters died or are missing. Obviously, if this bugs you, then the plot is successful.

The other answer is that its part of the story. Writers don't always have strict control over what happens in a story. The best stories are organic, and for Kato it could've been that this story went in this other direction and he just went along for the ride.

gatotsu911

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2010, 01:16:48 pm »
Put simply:

1) I get the impression that Kato always intended to go into greater detail about the fall of Guardia and the fates of the Trigger characters in another game. Their fates are merely incidental to the plot of Chrono Cross.

2) I would like to put this point into my own words, but I think I would inadvertently end up plagiarizing Pitchyfork's writeup of Chrono Cross, so I'll just reprint the relevant passage that pretty much says everything I'd like to:
Quote from:
Chrono Cross is a grown-up Chrono Trigger. Maybe Kato reckoned that the fans who enjoyed Trigger when they were ten to fifteen years old deserved a sequel whose maturation was commeasurate with their own experiences during the years since Trigger's release. Chrono Trigger is a fairly tale; a boyhood dream. Chrono Cross is a bittersweet dose of reality. There is no THE END in the world. The story always continues after the latest chapter is concluded, and -- perhaps as Trigger's fans noticed as they passed into adolescence and adulthood -- the next chapter isn't necessarily a happy one or what we expected.

Iyellalot

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2010, 04:22:28 pm »
Put simply:

1) I get the impression that Kato always intended to go into greater detail about the fall of Guardia and the fates of the Trigger characters in another game. Their fates are merely incidental to the plot of Chrono Cross.

Guardia didn't fall until Kato retconned it into falling in the PS1 rerelease.

Quote
Chrono Cross is a grown-up Chrono Trigger. Maybe Kato reckoned that the fans who enjoyed Trigger when they were ten to fifteen years old deserved a sequel whose maturation was commeasurate with their own experiences during the years since Trigger's release. Chrono Trigger is a fairly tale; a boyhood dream. Chrono Cross is a bittersweet dose of reality. There is no THE END in the world. The story always continues after the latest chapter is concluded, and -- perhaps as Trigger's fans noticed as they passed into adolescence and adulthood -- the next chapter isn't necessarily a happy one or what we expected.

I didn't play Chrono Cross because I wanted a subversion of Chrono Trigger's main theme of creating your own destiny. You can understand my hatred for the game's plot (the gameplay and soundtrack are still great) when it basically destroys everything that makes Chrono Trigger's story so inspiring by saying, "your happy ending never happened."

It also bugs me that Serge and company are able to dick around with dimensions without any real repercussions if Crono couldn't time travel without creating a series of tragedies. I'll quote a passage on the "It Just Bugs Me" page on TVTropes for Chrono Cross to sum up my opinion.

Quote
Basically, the plot also has a "screw destiny" element, but it also says, "When THESE characters screw destiny it's a good thing, but when those jackasses in the last game did it was bad and now it's up to these new guys to fix it." Serge is a Fixer Sue. It's annoying precisely because the game uses these similar plot elements and addresses the issues, but in such a way to imply that Crono and co. actually made things worse and now it's up to a group of new, "better" characters to take care of things.

It'd be like if at the end of the Mario games you find out Princess Peach is actually a terrible ruler, gets deposed by Petey Piranha, and Bowser is substantially more powerful for having been defeated. Then Mario doesn't do a thing and it's up to Waluigi to fix all his mistakes.

gatotsu911

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2010, 07:18:57 pm »
Quote from:
Guardia didn't fall until Kato retconned it into falling in the PS1 rerelease.
Actually, implications of the fall of Guardia can be found all the way back to Radical Dreamers, which was made within a year after Trigger. It's pretty clear Kato (the guy responsible for the series canon) had it on his mind for a while.

Quote
I didn't play Chrono Cross because I wanted a subversion of Chrono Trigger's main theme of creating your own destiny. You can understand my hatred for the game's plot (the gameplay and soundtrack are still great) when it basically destroys everything that makes Chrono Trigger's story so inspiring by saying, "your happy ending never happened."
But Chrono Cross has a happy ending too (or at least bittersweet). It may deconstruct and subvert Trigger on many levels, but at no point does it outright contradict Trigger's central theme; it merely explores it from a different - a more complex, and darker - angle. It doesn't imply that the Trigger crew were wrong to have done what they did, merely that they did not fully grasp the repercussions. Serge and crew didn't fix the Trigger cast's mistakes, they finished the job.

Anyway, the title of this thread asks why these things happened in (or rather, were implied by) Cross, and that's as close to an answer as you're going to get. Kato made Cross with the intention of making an artistic statement, not pleasing fans. As with any art, you're not obligated to like it, but you asked why it is the way it is, and there's your answer.

maggiekarp

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2010, 02:36:27 pm »
Like I said, Chrono Cross reached farther than it could grasp

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2010, 07:34:22 pm »
Killing our old heroes is sad and that is what they intend it to be. CT still brings emotions and seeing them die is not fun.
They had to do it for the case of the plot to go on.

idioticidioms

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2010, 09:21:11 pm »
Man, you guys play through CT; play through CC and every other single incarnation of CT and you still skip over the obvious explanation: They were only killed off in one or two dimensions. Given that for everything that happens, there are at least a million different ways the course can go, the operative theme of CC was an infinite amount of dimensions, though you really only travel between two, due to Serge's special case.

It has been hinted at that Marle and Crono escaped through time. Who is to say that the next crono game doesnt mix the themes of CT and CC in one game and have time traveling and dimension hopping? They could still bring back the full Crono team for it without having to worry about plot holes or paradox, cover up the openings they left at the end of the remakes of CT, as well as the openings left in CC, all in one fell swoop.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2010, 11:49:38 pm »
Man, you guys play through CT; play through CC and every other single incarnation of CT and you still skip over the obvious explanation: They were only killed off in one or two dimensions. Given that for everything that happens, there are at least a million different ways the course can go, the operative theme of CC was an infinite amount of dimensions, though you really only travel between two, due to Serge's special case.

It has been hinted at that Marle and Crono escaped through time. Who is to say that the next crono game doesnt mix the themes of CT and CC in one game and have time traveling and dimension hopping? They could still bring back the full Crono team for it without having to worry about plot holes or paradox, cover up the openings they left at the end of the remakes of CT, as well as the openings left in CC, all in one fell swoop.

Thank you.

utunnels

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2010, 01:55:55 am »
Only Lucca and Robo really die; evidence strongly points to Crono and Marle being alive: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Fates_of_the_Chrono_Trigger_Team.html#Crono_and_Marle
I have a feeling that someone needs to create some concept art of those mid-aged heroes.

idioticidioms

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2010, 02:57:28 am »
You know, I had an idea that I don't think has been covered yet. How did Gaspar wind up in Vipor Manor to begin with? You see where I'm going with this? I mean, last we seem him in CT< he's stuck at the End of Time. How then did he make his way to the present without the use of the portals or the Epoch? He could have used the bucket, but that would have brought him to 1999 AD, well past the time frame that CC had to have taken place in.

Wouldn't it be possible that some outside force, or perhaps Gaspar himself, moved Gaspar to that time period for a reason? It's obviously not to play such an important role in Serge's Adventure, as he only shows up a couple of times and doesn't really give much in terms of help, though he hints at quite a lot.

If not to avidly help Serge the way he helped Crono, what then was Gaspar doing in Vipor Manor? Considering that the El Nido Archipelago is not where Guardia was located, but a very small part of the Cronoverse, given that it's just a small grouping of islands and that the rest of the world from CT is still outside the Archipelago.

It is my theory that perhaps Gaspar showed up in time to save Crono and Marle, and possibly Lucca and Robo, as well. It would explain why the bodies of Crono and Marle were never found, their disappearance all of a sudden, and why Lucca had time to write Kid a letter before she was killed by Lynx. If you bring Norstein Bekkler into the picture, it makes even more sense, because he could have contributed Lucca and Robo clones to help save them. The reason why they didn't use Crono and Marle clones similarly could probably be contributed to lack of time. Porre had to have struck unexpectedly to raze Guardia Castle like that and still have Guardia being a prominent force in the world. Which, in turn, would mean that Crono and Marle had to be on the fly, quick, probably gave a quick tip to Lucca and Robo and before being sent off by Gaspar for whatever reason; probably to prepare for Dalton and once Lucca and Robo did the switch, they dipped, too.

If Gaspar was involved, it would mean that at least Lucca and Robo knew that Lynx was coming for them specifically, at the head of the Porre Military, which is corroborated by Lucca's letter because why would she write such a letter to Kid unless she knew she was going to be taken out of Kid's life? And if she knew, why stick around to be killed; especially if you've been informed by the Guru of Time that you will die if you stay to fight. If they knew Lynx was coming for them, it would make even more sense that they disappear unexpectedly.

While it probably wouldn't have minimalized casualties in any way for the Guardia forces, it does give Crono and Co. time to prepare for a much bigger fight than the one they left on.

it makes perfect sense, because Gaspar probably also would have known about Serge already, and Kid and knew they could handle the events of CC without the CT crew.


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Mortalshuffle

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2010, 04:01:56 am »
Idioticidioms, Belthasar is the one who traveled back in time, not Gaspar.

idioticidioms

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Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2010, 05:47:44 am »
I was pretty sure it was Gaspar, but I was wrong. My theory makes better sense with Balthasar anyway.