Author Topic: As May 8th Approaches...  (Read 3693 times)

Machina Kyrios

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As May 8th Approaches...
« on: May 03, 2010, 09:30:49 am »
I find myself hating, genuinely hating Square-Enix more and more, as the anniversary of CE's termination grows closer.


I want to see the flagship franchises sink.

I want another Final Fantasy: Spirits Within debacle.

I want to see it all vanish in a puff of failure, for the company to bleed money until it folds.

However unlikely, I wish Square Enix was no more.


Harsh words, sure, and possibly a bit irrational, (possibly) but has anything worthwhile even come out of the company in the last decade? Have they given any indication they aren't worthy of that kind of animosity? No, and more to the point, they've consistently stood between the CT fandom and anything good.

When May 9th, 2009 rolled around, and we were told of the C&D, I made a promise to myself, right there, that I would never buy a Square-Enix product that wasn't Chrono related again. That hasn't been hard. They've not only released nothing Chrono related, save announcing those figures, but they've released nothing good. Sure, rumors have circulated about a third Chrono game, but there have been Chrono Break rumors since the turn of the century. They've only teased us with the rumors, dismissing the idea with scorn and laughing at the fan base. However, can Square-Enix even be trusted to make a Chrono game anymore? No.

The only option for a new Chrono game is the fandom, and Square-Enix is determined to shut down any ambitious project that might make them look incompetent.


In five days, one year will have passed since Square Enix jammed a knife in the fandom's back, gave it a twist, and pissed in the wound. They've shown no sign of giving a damn about the Chrono series despite terminating major fan-initiated projects. Apparently, given their attitude toward the license, for shits and giggles. Sure, the argument could be made that they have the right to do it, but lawful does not mean just.

For my part, I'll be renewing that promise I made, and encouraging others not to buy Square-Enix's crap. (Take whichever meaning of that statement you wish, they all apply, save any involving actual fecal matter. ... Come to think of that, it does apply. Some people will buy dog shit if you slap a "Final Fantasy" on the box.) Hell, I've even encouraged a word that starts with a P and ends in rum. (Bad joke count ++)

Anyone else not willing to forgive just yet?




TL;DR: Fuck Squeenix. Rage. Hate.

(Disclaimer: The above post does not necessarily represent a sane or rational viewpoint, and was made under less than optimal conditions. The poster takes no responsibility for any pregnancies that result from this post.  Do not drive or operate heavy machinery while reading this post. Consult a doctor immediately if you have an erection lasting more than four hours. Werewolves should not take or handle this post due to a specific birth defect. Consult your doctor before beginning use of this disclaimer.)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 09:32:23 am by Machina Kyrios »

FaustWolf

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Re: As May 8th Approaches...
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2010, 12:11:27 pm »
Perhaps you can channel your frustration into a Dream Splash! entry. This year it's about fan ideas for how the franchise could continue, or could have continued. The timing of the Splash! this year makes it a protest against efforts to stamp out fan creativity. It'll be a real Scream from the Underground!

tushantin

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Re: As May 8th Approaches...
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2010, 04:47:57 pm »
May 8th, the day we stood eagerly for some delicious Japanese recipe food only to be given shit.

Has anything good come from the company? Probably not. Has anything good come? YES!

A C&D isn't enough to silence a fan community (they'd have to kill us all, but they ain't gonna do that). So long as we THINK we will DEFY, even though we give in momentarily. And just because we don't like what SE did doesn't mean we actually hate the developers - such as Kato, Mitsuda, Toriyama, Yuuki, Uematsu, etc. who worked hard enough for the fans to give em stomach ulcers. Without em, the Chrono project woulda been uninspiring crap.

FOR THE DEVELOPERS! Corporates don't understand the feelings of fans, but true artists recognize the respect. In fact, I can guarantee you that Mitsuda, Kato and Toriyama love seeing how their works so wonderfully transform and influence all of humanity, and they WERE proud of the efforts put in CE, Deviantart and OCRemix! And for that, we'll do even more. CE may just have been a stepping stone, but there's still more to come (though legally). Fan power and talent shall be recognized, every art and literature shall shine in glory!

LET'S HEAR IT FOR A FAN REVOLUTION! ON TO THE DREAM SPLASH!!

« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 04:49:34 pm by tushantin »

V_Translanka

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Re: As May 8th Approaches...
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2010, 10:44:10 am »
Companies have not only the right, but the OBLIGATION to defend their intellectual properties. If they are given information telling them that a fan project is somewhere doing w/e, however harmless it may be, it's easy, safe and necessary for them to shut it down. The problem was never the fault of the company and the developers & artists shouldn't be blamed or punished for it.

If you don't like something they've put out just don't buy it. I personally think it's more than a little harsh to say nothing good has come from them in the last decade (perhaps you're forgetting how long a decade is or something?). DQVIII was good & I've heard that Kingdom Hearts 2 game is good, same with Valkyrie Profile 2...But perhaps you also forgot about portable games? The FFTA games are solid SRPGs, Sword of Mana is a great remake of the first Seiken Densetsu, all of the FF Advance (& Dawn of Souls) were great, KH: CoM was pretty decent (RE is probably a bit better), everything Matrix Software (FFIII DS, FFIV DS, FFIV The After) has scratched a different oldschool itch, FFT:WotL was something I had wanted to happen (wouldn't mind it happening again in some fashion even) & the same for the first two Star Ocean remakes, I've heard nothing but good things (from people that have actually played it anyways, everyone else just complains about the art style) about The World Ends With You, CTDS was a great 'advanced' port & Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume is pretty good (though I need to play more of it sometime)...I don't feel like going over the pre-merger games (yup, it hasn't even been a decade since THAT)...

And now they're breaking into new genres thanks to Taito, Eidos & IO Interactive (Hitman) which is cool & interesting in terms of future possibilities...C'mon, learn from Capcom & do a big, nasty cross-over game SE! :P

Mostly it comes down to how underground a fanbase is or not. Not every hack or fangame gets shut down, but the more people that know about your project, the more assholes that know about it that can cry foul to SE's legal department.

Again, it makes NO SENSE to begrudge the creators for some legal matter in another country they probably aren't even aware of (er, the legal matter, not the country...>_>)...
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 10:47:41 am by V_Translanka »

LinkSlySora

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Re: As May 8th Approaches...
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2010, 05:38:15 pm »
"Square-Enix" has been thrown around in a lot arguements, but it doens't always mean the same thing. In the case of the C&D, it was their legal team.
Now (for anything I say correct me if I'm wrong), that the only people who directly influenced the letter being sent, were just a few people, not the company as a whole. I highly doubt many people within the company knew about it (and the reasons were not because it was bad. Because it wasn't, from those videos it looked like a very well done game). Now wheather or not right they were right in sending the letter.... remains to be seen. I've seen arguements go both ways.

And as said early, there have been many good games that have come form SE. From all the reading I've done, few have been deemed "Bad" by the fans. Most either good, or argueable (like Final Fantasy XIII). True it's all subjective, but saying all their games in the last decade have been bad is bit of a strech.

alfadorredux

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Re: As May 8th Approaches...
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2010, 08:45:54 pm »
Companies have not only the right, but the OBLIGATION to defend their intellectual properties.
Alas, you just hit on a pet peeve of mine...

The term "intellectual property" is a catch-all for four very different things, one of which must be defended, two of which may be defended, and one of which can't be defended.

A company must defend its trademarks if it wants to keep them.

A company may defend its copyrights and patents. It may also ignore some infringements and challenge others, theoretically without weakening its standing in a court of law with respect to the cases in which it does go forward and make those challenges. In other words, a company bringing a copyright infringement suit against someone does so as a matter of choice, not obligation.

Trade secrets form the fourth class of IP, and these cannot be defended--once they're out of the bag, that's it. For this reason, they're seldom mentioned in discussions about IP and the law.

Anyway, the four classes of IP are quite different in terms of their legal treatment, and lumping them together in this context can be dangerous. </CANNED_RANT>

Machina Kyrios

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Re: As May 8th Approaches...
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2010, 03:06:05 am »
Companies have not only the right, but the OBLIGATION to defend their intellectual properties. If they are given information telling them that a fan project is somewhere doing w/e, however harmless it may be, it's easy, safe and necessary for them to shut it down. The problem was never the fault of the company and the developers & artists shouldn't be blamed or punished for it.

alfadorredux natural 20'd this with his(?) response, but there're also some examples I want to throw out there. Ultima 5 Lazarus and Mechwarrior Living Legends, both MASSIVE projects that the copyright owners knew damn well about, had massive coverage, and in the first case actually got a "oh, cool" out of EA. You could try to argue that it's somehow different because those are mods for other games that step on the IP of the owners of those properties, but it still runs counter to your dubious claim that defense of those IPs is necessary.

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If you don't like something they've put out just don't buy it.

That is why I said it was easy to keep my vows, is it not?

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I personally think it's more than a little harsh to say nothing good has come from them in the last decade

I was speaking out of anger. Keep that in mind. It would be more correct to say that most of what they've crapped out in the past decade is, well, crap. Speaking of that "d" word again.

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(perhaps you're forgetting how long a decade is or something?)

It's perfectly appropriate to round seven up to ten for purposes of hyperbole and/or ranting. Also, putting it that way is a bit dickish (yes, yes, pot meet kettle) and borders on calling the other person an idiot. Not cool.

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DQVIII was good & I've heard that Kingdom Hearts 2 game is good, same with Valkyrie Profile 2...

Dragon Quest 8 was developed by Level-5. Valkyrie Profile 2 was made by tri-Ace. Both were just published by Square-Enix. And I'm counting Kingdom Hearts 2 on my "shit games" list. Sorry, but Tron can only save a game in my eyes so much.

FFXII had potential, but loses a lot of points for its main character. I can't pass judgement of FFXI because I haven't played it. (Bannable Offenses makes me interested in trying it. I need to find a free, player run server.)

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But perhaps you also forgot about portable games? The FFTA games are solid SRPGs, Sword of Mana is a great remake of the first Seiken Densetsu, all of the FF Advance (& Dawn of Souls) were great, KH: CoM was pretty decent (RE is probably a bit better), everything Matrix Software (FFIII DS, FFIV DS, FFIV The After) has scratched a different oldschool itch, FFT:WotL was something I had wanted to happen (wouldn't mind it happening again in some fashion even) & the same for the first two Star Ocean remakes, I've heard nothing but good things (from people that have actually played it anyways, everyone else just complains about the art style) about The World Ends With You, CTDS was a great 'advanced' port & Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume is pretty good (though I need to play more of it sometime)

I should have broken that into more quote blocks, but... Meh.

Sword of Mana was developed by Brownie Brown. (Which is owned by Nintendo.) The FF Advance ports, and FFT:WotL were ported by TOSE, and are covered under the "Old Square GOOD, Square-Enix BAD" thing anyway. TOSE also did the Star Ocean ports, and the originals were still done by tri-Ace. The 3D remakes were, as you said, done by Matrix Software, which is by no means a Square-Enix subsidiary. CTDS was a) a Chrono game, and b) a port of a good game and falls under the "Old Square GOOD, Square-Enix BAD" thing. Valkirie Profile is, again, a tri-Ace production, but some games have been ported by TOSE. Some you didn't cover were the port of Front Mission that, while not ported by TOSE, is still covered the "Old Square GOOD, Square-Enix BAD" effect.

FFTA and TWEWY, I'll kind of give you. FFTA wasn't horrible, but it wasn't super good, either. Still need to play through FFTA2. Jupiter is half-responsible for TWEWY, but they're kind of hit or miss.

Jupiter is also half-responsible for KH:CoM, which I will not give you because it is, in my eyes, crap.

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...I don't feel like going over the pre-merger games (yup, it hasn't even been a decade since THAT)...

Restating for the sake of responding to all points, it's perfectly acceptable to round seven years up to a decade. Six? No. Five is right out.

Not only that, but in the years before the merger, Square and Enix were both still sliding downhill. Final Fantasy X, anyone?

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And now they're breaking into new genres thanks to Taito, Eidos & IO Interactive (Hitman) which is cool & interesting in terms of future possibilities...C'mon, learn from Capcom & do a big, nasty cross-over game SE! :P

While all three companies have been consumed by Square-Enix, I'm not sure if they've been tainted yet so I can't really comment.

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Mostly it comes down to how underground a fanbase is or not. Not every hack or fangame gets shut down, but the more people that know about your project, the more assholes that know about it that can cry foul to SE's legal department.

Not every company is as litigious as Square-Enix. When we have reasonable entities like Electronic Arts on the field, (that... felt really, really freakin' weird to say...) the amount of blame you can place on Square-Enix's legal team for the shit they pull increases greatly.

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Again, it makes NO SENSE to begrudge the creators for some legal matter in another country they probably aren't even aware of (er, the legal matter, not the country...>_>)...

My blaming the company's legal teams for the C&D, my blame of the executives for teasing the fandom with a sequel they don't intend to make, and my blame of their current development teams for making bad games are separate issues, but contribute to my statement that Square-Enix, as it is today, is shit, and cannot be trusted.




I'm going to be repeating myself a fair bit, but I don't want to ignore LinkSlySora.

"Square-Enix" has been thrown around in a lot arguements, but it doens't always mean the same thing. In the case of the C&D, it was their legal team.

And in the case of teasing the fandom with "herp durp a million copies of the second damn port we've released isn't enough interest to justify a new sequel" it was their executives.

And in the case of making bad games, it was their current developers.

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Now (for anything I say correct me if I'm wrong)

You're wron- Oh, shit, jumped the gun.

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that the only people who directly influenced the letter being sent, were just a few people, not the company as a whole.

You're wron- Wait, no, you're accurate there.

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I highly doubt many people within the company knew about it (and the reasons were not because it was bad. Because it wasn't, from those videos it looked like a very well done game). Now wheather

You're wrong. Not in the statement, but you misspelled "whether" there.

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or not right they were right in sending the letter.... remains to be seen. I've seen arguements go both ways.

That's where I'm going to go right out and say you're wrong. (And not because you misspelled arguments. I already did that joke. )

From a marketing, public relations, and moral stance, that was a horrible decision. I'd like to see arguments, other than V_Translanka's disproved statement that companies are obligated to crush fanworks, supporting Square-Enix. I really would. Because I can't, even trying to play devil's advocate, think of even one.

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And as said early, there have been many good games that have come form SE.

Wrong for entirely subjective reasons. (Hey, you didn't say they had to be GOOD reasons to say you're wrong.)

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From all the reading I've done, few have been deemed "Bad" by the fans.

I won't say wrong, this time, I'm overusing that, but I will point you at my statement in the first post stating that some people will buy literal shit in a box if you slap a "Final Fantasy" label on it. Most gaming journalists can't be trusted in the modern industry either because bashing Square-Enix is a good way to end your career. There's an unspoken rule that giving bad reviews to super hyped up games is a good way to get fired lest the publishers take all their advertising money to your competitors and stop giving you "exclusive" looks at their latest piece of shit.

Cynical? Why yes, thank you.

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Most either good, or argueable (like Final Fantasy XIII). True it's all subjective, but saying all their games in the last decade have been bad is bit of a strech.

It's not that much of a stretch. Most of the good games that have been released under their name were merely published by Square-Enix. What's left is a small amount of mediocre games, quite a few ports of their good earlier titles, and a whole bunch of shit-tier productions.

LinkSlySora

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Re: As May 8th Approaches...
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2010, 04:58:02 pm »
True true, I never spell check my posts (and wheather always looks wrong to me...) and I did use the arguement on the subjectivity of SE games being cruddy, wrong. (I kinda just turned around and said their good.....). Personally, I like many of the SE games coming out of SE, but that's just me.

However, what I meant by my readings were posts on in the internet, not reviews. Things on boards like Gamefaqs and such. Granted, not the best sources of information for games, espeically ones that I haven't played, but not reviewers. (I do agree with you on that topic that most official game reviewers do rate game unfairly often.)

As for the C&D point, I remember reading some board that was full of people posting about CE. One guy in it, who, based on what he was saying had legal experience, posted saying that they did not have the power to do so. However other arguements I've read said that they do have the power to do so, just because it's their IP (Didn't say they had to be good reasons   :D), but didn't give reasons (as far as I can remember). I do not know if V_Translanka is accurate in their statements (I honestly do not know at all, I have 0 experience in this kind of stuff, please don't take that the wrong way), but it does seem weird that SE is so dead set on ending any Chrono Mod that rears(?) it's (not ugly) head, but they themselves have only been making Ports (and not even for both games....).


Now I'm at the end of this post and I know their are a million spelling errors, and I don't even understand the point I'm trying to make . Please feel free to make fun me. Also, where can I find info on this DREAM SPLASH! thing? I've looked around a bit but couldn't find it. (With my luck it's on the first page.....)

RySenkari

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Re: As May 8th Approaches...
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2010, 05:55:54 pm »
If Square Enix was obligated to crush Crimson Echoes, then I guess I should get working on my for-profit Super Mario World sequel now. I mean, there's hundreds of Mario ROM hacks floating around freely on the internet, so Nintendo's lost their rights to Mario now, right?

alfadorredux

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Re: As May 8th Approaches...
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2010, 08:26:43 pm »
::sigh::

Another point to remember is that anyone can sue you for anything they please. It needn't have any basis in reality. The courts are supposed to sort the matter out, but the problem is that in the US, it's expensive to defend yourself against even a frivolous lawsuit from a large corporation. Even in countries with marginally saner justice systems, dealing with lawsuits can be exhausting.

The truth is that no one knows whether Squeenix would have won if the matter of CE had gone to court. There are no legal precedents dealing with hacks distributed in patch form. The CE Team decided that they didn't have the time or energy to pursue a legal fight that would last for years over a free video game.

We don't know whether Squeenix was within its rights.

We never will know.

Get used to it.

This was already beaten into the ground last year. If you think you have something new to say about the C&D, read the old threads on the subject first. Chances are that several people have already said what you wanted to say, and reopening an old wound just to say what amounts to "Me too!" isn't constructive.

V_Translanka

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Re: As May 8th Approaches...
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2010, 02:31:24 am »
A company may defend its copyrights and patents. It may also ignore some infringements and challenge others, theoretically without weakening its standing in a court of law with respect to the cases in which it does go forward and make those challenges. In other words, a company bringing a copyright infringement suit against someone does so as a matter of choice, not obligation.

Yes, but if they have been specifically informed of such a project then legally their case would be weaker should such an event, for whatever reason, occur.

As for "those are other developers that Square-Enix just employed to make them good games" rather than...what? All their many in-house developers? I don't see the difference. If you say Square-Enix is shit then you're saying their products are shit. If that isn't what you mean then I think what you mean is to rant against the individual development teams by name or something...or maybe I just think accuracy matters. Sure, you can round up a number to make your argument better, but you can also just lie flat-out rather than tell the truth (see the difference? I do not).

Not really an issue since this is a casual discussion forum (coulda fooled me! lol), but Machina Kyrios, I understand the joking quality you were conveying, but don't quote a bunch of stuff you don't have to as it uglies (wow, totally not a word) up not just your post but the entire thread.

If Square Enix was obligated to crush Crimson Echoes, then I guess I should get working on my for-profit Super Mario World sequel now. I mean, there's hundreds of Mario ROM hacks floating around freely on the internet, so Nintendo's lost their rights to Mario now, right?

Yes, the fact that there are so many (that they have not been explicitly told about) would probably make it fiscally irresponsible to go after each individual ROM hack of SMB...Good sarcasm though (it's the most wonderful social invention when you first learn about it, huh?)...:P

Like alfador just said, there is no real legal precedence for it and I don't think any company really wants to be the first & since they don't have to at all by just handing out a C&D, legally, they are better off/more secure...

::sigh::

This was already beaten into the ground last year. If you think you have something new to say about the C&D, read the old threads on the subject first. Chances are that several people have already said what you wanted to say, and reopening an old wound just to say what amounts to "Me too!" isn't constructive.

Yeah, that too...lol, should this be combined with that other thread...?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 02:35:21 am by V_Translanka »

IAmSerge

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Re: As May 8th Approaches...
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2010, 03:01:59 am »
Look, from what I've seen, Square Enix (atleast the legal department and the higher-ups) are just a bunch of money-whores.

They don't care about you and your fan base, and you will be sued at the first possible chance.

I cannot be sure if their game development department has the same attitude.  But I've grown tired of Final Fantasy.

I'm sick of bad game after ok game after bad game. =/.

I mean, credit given where credit is due: a game, bad or not, is hard stuff to do.

But really, stop making final fantasy.  Call the next RPG something else, atleast, please.

=/.

ZeaLitY

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Re: As May 8th Approaches...
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2010, 05:47:20 am »
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just a bunch of money-whores.

Welcome to business.

V_Translanka

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Re: As May 8th Approaches...
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2010, 09:03:51 pm »
They don't care about you and your fan base, and you will be sued at the first possible chance.

Who have they sued so far...?

Truthordeal

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Re: As May 8th Approaches...
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2010, 11:06:16 pm »
They don't care about you and your fan base, and you will be sued at the first possible chance.

Who have they sued so far...?

"Take legal action against," would've been a much better phrase to use, but it doesn't detract from what he said.