Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[GenesisOne]

Really, gatotsu? I found it quite an interesting read, and an equally interesting hypothesis on Lord J's part (nice theory, btw). If you honestly found it to be a long read, then let me condense the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict down to the bare facts to help you get started:

• The conflict is over a century old, and mixes everything from nationalism to religion.
• There have been (at least) 5 wars over this tiny strip of land since Israel became an independent nation in 1948, with dozens of battles, raids, and skirmishes between then and now.
• There have been (at least) 9 multi-nation peace talks to resolve the conflict, all of which have failed.
• The Israelis really want the land.
• The Palestinians really want the land.

The Israeli People
The Israelis -- also known as Jews, Hebrews, Israelites, and according to David Duke, the people who are secretly the "real" Russian Mafia and are working to control the banks, the media, the world, and you (especially you) -- are a group of Semitic people who have been inhabiting the Levant area of the Middle East for thousands of years. Sometime in the second millennium B.C., the Israelis had autonomous authority in Israel and ran themselves just fine. Around the first century B.C., the Romans invaded and later forced the Jews out. Over the next two millennia, the Israelis moved to Europe and Russia, while many stayed and continued to live in the Middle East under the rule of whatever empire at the time that decided to wage a war on a whim.

The Palestinian People
The Palestinians are also a group of Semitic people who have been inhabiting the Levant area of the Middle East for thousands of years. The Palestinians have only been called "Palestinians" since the 20th century. Prior to that they were known as Phillistines, Arabs, Muslims or, according to Alan Dershowitz, the people who plotted with Hitler to orchestrate the Holocaust. The Palestinians have lived under numerous governments, and have never been autonomous.

I'm sure you can figure it out from there. I recommend starting with World War I and the Ottoman Empire.


Update: Also, research the PLO and Hamas, two major players in the conflict. The PLO manifesto basically states that the Israeli and Palestinian territories will convert into one Islamic state, and Hamas is a cowardly terrorist organization who targets civilians over 99% of time and uses children as human shields.

[ZeaLitY]

uses children as human shields.

They aren't the only ones.

[Lord J Esq]

Well-spotted, ZeaLitY. Clearly the Israeli Defense Forces are every bit as unethical and opportunistic as Palestinian militants. Except for the fact that your news story is five years out of date, and that it explicitly mentions that the Israeli judicial system had outlawed the practice, and that recent news suggests the prohibition is still in place, and that the "human shields" used by the IDF were tasked with knocking on doors to demand the enemy's surrender rather than presenting themselves as literal, physical body shields during combat...except for those wee insignificant details of no importance, you're made a very cogent and irrefutable tu quoque argument of such impeccable integrity that I think we're all beside ourselves with surprise.

[ZeaLitY]

Oh, I knew that would trigger L'ego sans action. Your apologism for the flotilla, completely unnecessary and unprovoked, needed some kind of retaliation, even if only symbolic. In a world where several American Jewish liberals are finding themselves criticized as anti-Israel for daring to point out its excesses, we can count on you to stretch logic far enough to justify mass-murder and propaganda. I'm sure you'd be paid well to be part of a Republican think-tank when it comes to this.

[Lord J Esq]

Your earlier potshot about human shields is invalid for all the reasons I mentioned previously. Your more recent outburst doesn't change that. What's more is that you know it. You knew when you wrote that outburst that you weren't writing anything legitimate, that you were just venting your frustration in my general direction. Fair enough; we all have to rant and rave sometimes. But we're both well aware that you're nursing a serious personal grudge against me, which you ought to realize makes crossing my well-drawn lines a bad idea for you. You know we disagree on things like Israel, and you know how ruthless I am when people try to pass shit reasoning as the real McCoy. You're setting yourself up for failure by taking your potshots in a thread like this. Given your track record in recent months, you're probably better off avoiding topics like this altogether.

[Thought]

Lord J, that article was a bit brief on the discussion of human shields verses the "neighbor procedure." As far as I have been able to tell, formerly the Israeli army did use human shields in the sense of hiding behind Palestinians during a conflict. However, it should be noted that Israelis were the ones to also get this practice officially banned. And when the military switched from conventional human shields to the neighbor procedure, which is what Z's posted article primarily dealt with, it was again Israelis who got that too banned. Here's an article that goes into greater detail (though one will note that it is from 2003): http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jan/02/israel1

It should also be noted that even at its worst, Israeli use of human shields was of a different caliber than the use of human shields by various Palestinian militant groups. That is, I have been able to find no indication that the Israeli military operates or ever operated out of civilian areas so that their opponents are forced to either risk civilian lives or to not retaliate.

Genesis, something you failed to mention was that the reason Jews were kicked out of Palestine by the Romans was because of constant uprisings. This, however, didn't occur until the Current Era (indeed, the naming of the region as Palestine was also punishment for uprisings). Not terribly important, but one of the crimes lain against pro-Israel individuals is that they are willing to white wash Israel's crimes/mistakes/whatever.

But something that is important to keep in mind, particularly given Helen Thomas's recent comments regarding Israel, is that before the modern state of Israel was founded, Jews were already living in "Palestine" (and, curiously enough, they were able to live is a significant degree of peace with their non-Jewish neighbors). The formation of Israel didn't introduce an entirely foreign element into the region, though it is true that the Jewish population increased as individuals from foreign nations moved in. It is also important to keep in mind that a Palestinian state had been planned right alongside the formation of Israel, but neither Israel nor Palestine were intended to be ethnically exclusive. Unfortunately, Jordan and other neighboring nations prevented the formation of Palestine.

[Truthordeal]

I suppose I support Israel in this conflict, however I do have sympathy for the millions of Palestinian refugees currently dislocated around the Middle East. Would anyone else here agree that Israel has a moral obligation to assist the lawful, non-violent and destitute Palestinians currently residing within Israel?

[Thought]

I'm not sure, but at the very least it would behoove them.

[FaustWolf]

Anyone have recent figures on how much Western aid goes to the Palestinian territories, or is that question so foolish as to elicit sudden bouts of laughter? I'd like to see some serious attempts at economic development there, because nothing radicalizes a person like long-term unemployment, or lack of direction and opportunity.

[gatotsu911]

Yeah, this forum isn't for you.

Actually I think this is a pretty interesting discussion, it's just kind of ridiculous that it's being had on a Chrono Trigger forum. And, by extension, that you would write something so insanely long just to prove your point. On a Chrono Trigger forum.

I'm not going to even think about entering the shit-flinging ring here, but honestly, I mostly agree with you dude.

[Lord J Esq]

Lord J, that article was a bit brief on the discussion of human shields verses the "neighbor procedure." As far as I have been able to tell, formerly the Israeli army did use human shields in the sense of hiding behind Palestinians during a conflict. However, it should be noted that Israelis were the ones to also get this practice officially banned. And when the military switched from conventional human shields to the neighbor procedure, which is what Z's posted article primarily dealt with, it was again Israelis who got that too banned. Here's an article that goes into greater detail (though one will note that it is from 2003): http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jan/02/israel1

It should also be noted that even at its worst, Israeli use of human shields was of a different caliber than the use of human shields by various Palestinian militant groups. That is, I have been able to find no indication that the Israeli military operates or ever operated out of civilian areas so that their opponents are forced to either risk civilian lives or to not retaliate.

I'll accept that emendation, since you pointed out that the "human shield" term here is not being applied to the same practices by the Palestinians vis-a-vis the Israelis. Contrary to what my Republican think tank buddies would believe for themselves, I've always been openly critical of Israel where that criticism is due, and there's always some new unpleasant fact just waiting to be unearthed. That's true of any country, and Israel is no exception.

Anyone have recent figures on how much Western aid goes to the Palestinian territories, or is that question so foolish as to elicit sudden bouts of laughter? I'd like to see some serious attempts at economic development there, because nothing radicalizes a person like long-term unemployment, or lack of direction and opportunity.

I looked this up a couple of months ago. I had a hard time finding anything, but eventually I found some very good data. Unfortunately I don't remember the pathway to that information now. The Palestinians are huge recipients of international aid, in the order of either hundreds of millions or low billions of (the equivalent of) dollars every year. (This raw data ignores the fact that much of that aid is diverted by corrupt government officials and Islamic militants.) If memory serves, the European Union and Japan are the key sources of aid, because while the Arab world pledges marginally more, the EU and the Japanese are better at following through on their pledges. The U.S. is also a significant source of aid. Again, if memory serves. The numbers are out there; it's a legitimate question. If you find them again, post them here.

Israel, incidentally, is a not-insignificant source of aid for the Palestinians. The report I read was written by Arabs, and so Israel doesn't appear on the list at all, but Israel provides employment, public infrastructure, food and medical aid, and sometimes education to Palestinians. Much of this is simply a consequence of their being very intimate neighbors, but some of it is also the result of Israel's nature as a liberal democracy.

[FaustWolf]

Urge to proclaim Idrian10 either a bot or a radical genius RISING


J, I'm glad the stats are out there, and I'll endeavor to look into this too now that I have some hope of finding loads of info. It seems to me that the current level of aid given to the Palestinians, such as it is, is insufficient (or, perhaps, inefficient) in some way. One thing I heard from a Palestinian American is that (as of 2008) Israel exerted some significant control over utilities in the Gaza Strip, and Israel could tug on this string as a "stick" to punish everyone there for terrorist attacks, similar to how an elementary school teacher might deny everyone an ice cream trip for one student's misbehavior. With the exception, of course, that potable water is more important than ice cream.

Unfortunately I'm going on anecdote here but if it can be corroborated, it strikes me as a foolish stick to have in place -- both for Hamas to let the Israelis keep, and the Israelis for using it, as "positive peer pressure through punishment for all" is ridiculous on its face in my opinion. I wanted that ice cream in elementary school and I blamed the teacher for being mean enough to withhold it, after all. Either Hamas is specifically squandering power plants and water desalination facilities in the Gaza Strip, or these facilities aren't reaching the Gaza Strip for whatever reason. The more incisive question, then, is not whether aid is being given to the Palestinians, but rather the composition of the aid, and whether the aid is creating viable national infrastructure. And even more incisive is the question of what politics are getting in the way.

Incidentally, this all reminds me that I'm only on page 115 out of 527 in Thomas Friedman's From Beirut to Jerusalem, and I've had that book put down for far too long. Part of the reason for this failure on my part, I think, is the lack of attention the Israeli/Palestinian situation has been given in mainstream media until now, in addition to my own refocusing on economics instead of politics and international politics. Anyway, anyone else here ever read Friedman's articles or watch his documentaries? He's always struck me as something of a fair voice on the matter. Probably because he appeals to my own sense of moderatism.