Author Topic: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)  (Read 4321 times)

TheMage

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2012, 12:57:22 am »
From what I understand the time travelers immunity works in such a way that if Frog travels through time he remembers what happened even if his time line changes. So  lets imagine he goes off through time with the others and lets say while there out changing things Magus decides to kill Cyrus when he was a nobody. Glenn gets back to his time line and no one remembers Cyrus, everything is different but Glenn still remembers because he was in the process of time traveling and he is immune to the time change and retains his old memories, and his frog like form.

That is why he still remembers his adventures with his friends, he time traveled with them etc. Now lets pretend they all run off with out Glenn leaving him in his time and say Magus is having another bad day and murders King Guardia at a young age. Glenn is immune to this change because he time traveled and has and will keep unaltered memories of his adventures and remembers and will continue to remember that King Guardia is supposed to be alive. So in Glenn's experience he will literally wake up and King Guardia will be dead and everything will be different but he will still remember. That's the time traveler immunity in a nutshell.

This is why Glenn notices that everything changed around him in Crimson Echoes. Why he notices the war with the mystics is not supposed to be going on etc. Because he remembers because he is immune to change that was caused after his time traveling adventure.

So if we pretend Magus just cant get any meaner and he gates exactly to 694 A.D. before Crono and company go on their adventure and kills Queen Leene Frog would not know the difference and would not have his time traveler immunity. I think XD

ChronoMoogle

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2012, 02:02:51 am »
Thanks for making this clear. So he can actually be affected when he was killed by another time traveler as, lets say, a baby.

TheMage

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2012, 02:53:44 pm »
Yes

Acacia Sgt

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2012, 03:00:49 pm »
Thanks for making this clear. So he can actually be affected when he was killed by another time traveler as, lets say, a baby.

Well, that would only be possible if the one being killed is his latest version. Otherwise, no, he would still be fine, though freaking out any witness when they next see him alive despite ''supposedly'' being killed, since it was a past self that was going to be TB'ed anyway. :lol:

From what I understand the time travelers immunity works in such a way that if Frog travels through time he remembers what happened even if his time line changes. So  lets imagine he goes off through time with the others and lets say while there out changing things Magus decides to kill Cyrus when he was a nobody. Glenn gets back to his time line and no one remembers Cyrus, everything is different but Glenn still remembers because he was in the process of time traveling and he is immune to the time change and retains his old memories, and his frog like form.

That is why he still remembers his adventures with his friends, he time traveled with them etc. Now lets pretend they all run off with out Glenn leaving him in his time and say Magus is having another bad day and murders King Guardia at a young age. Glenn is immune to this change because he time traveled and has and will keep unaltered memories of his adventures and remembers and will continue to remember that King Guardia is supposed to be alive. So in Glenn's experience he will literally wake up and King Guardia will be dead and everything will be different but he will still remember. That's the time traveler immunity in a nutshell.

This is why Glenn notices that everything changed around him in Crimson Echoes. Why he notices the war with the mystics is not supposed to be going on etc. Because he remembers because he is immune to change that was caused after his time traveling adventure.

So if we pretend Magus just cant get any meaner and he gates exactly to 694 A.D. before Crono and company go on their adventure and kills Queen Leene Frog would not know the difference and would not have his time traveler immunity. I think XD

Actually, to Frog the change wouldn't happen while he is in the time line itself. One time travel won't save you from further changes if you don't time travel again. What is protected is everything witnessed before doing a time travel. In order to remember King Guardia isn't suppose to have died, he'd need to have time traveled before the moment of the murder and reentered at any future point of the fact.

TheMage

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2012, 03:05:14 pm »
Ahh! I knew I didn't have it completely correct :D That actually makes more sense.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2012, 05:03:41 pm »
Well keep in mind TTI and TB are fan-created concepts and do not 100% accurately portray the way time travel works in the official games. The first instance of time travel in CT is the Marle Paradox and it implies that Mage was absolutely correct and that one could travel into the past, kill Glenn, and he would never become Frog OR join the team. Honestly the way time travel works in the games is "however the story needs it to work".

And personally, I like to think that in Crimson Echoes, TTI and TB are just Belthasar's way of trying to understand and explain time travel.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2012, 03:25:34 am »
To be fair, Marle's case is very isolated to any other effect of the time traveling done in the game, even without bringing TTI and TB into the equation.

Except for that one case, the plot doesn't seem to go on it's way to create paradoxes or establish time traveling to be predestined:
The characters can still see the ruined future even if they eventually defeat Lavos, Melchior doesn't recognize the party on the present or the fact that in the end he never ended up finishing the Masamune back in Antiquity considering that he recognized the sword itself when the party brought it to him to fix it, the Black Omen is not ominously floating over in the sky already, etc.

There clearly is a pattern that any change doesn't happen until the event that creates that change actually happens. So then why Marle disappears while Queen Leene is still alive? Even if the events had transpired in a way that still allowed Yakra to kill her (which I doubt considering that Lucca could've easily brought the issue up, even if Marle hadn't disappeared yet), Marle wouldn't have to disappear until the deed was done. Even her return was still some time after Queen Leene was already out of harm's way. In the end it makes the Marle Paradox look like an exception, not part of the rule.

So in my opinion, the Marle Paradox is not a point to bring up as a definite claim. Even TTI and TB have grounds to back up theirs, but even without them, the Marle Paradox still stands out due to how different is from any other instance of time travel of the game.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2012, 07:18:22 am »
I would say that it could be ignored if not for the fact that it is the first instance of time travel in game. First impressions are important, and this is no exception. TB and TTI are not consistent with the game 100%.

My smart time theory covers it in a way that doesn't conflict with anything in game, be it Trigger or Cross, and in a way that's easier for the casual player to wrap their head around. It's in the timeline analysis section if you want to look at it. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it is an alternative to TB that has been mostly ignored by Compendiumites and I'm sure there are other possible theories as well that could work just fine.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 07:21:53 am by Mr Bekkler »

Acacia Sgt

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2012, 02:43:01 pm »
Maybe I'm looking at a tangent, but didn't the plot of CT came up as various people working on separates areas of it which then was pieced together at the end? Like how Kato worked exclusively, or almost so, on the Antiquity events. I'm not saying that because whoever was in the charge of the Cathedral events wanted to use one of the most classic paradoxes in time travel in a time traveling game should be the de-facto answer to handwave the inconsistency, or to stop trying to establish theories that can explain it and everything else at the same time.

But at the same time, won't this should be a sign that it may not be wise to take it that seriously beyond a certain point? After all, there doesn't seem to be other cases than the likes of the Marle Pardox. Like for example, once Magus gets sent to Antiquity and Melchior is imprisoned in Mt. Woe, he obviously didn't had time to finish the Masamune. By the same logic of the Marle Paradox, Frog's Masamune should've regressed to the Red Knife until the original got embedded in the Mammon Machine and was completed, but that wasn't the case. What I mean is, that if there is no consistency or repeated cases, then how can it be taken as part of the norm?

But in a way I can understand. The Marle Paradox is still a canon event whose implications and impact can't just be ignore due to that it played out, isolated or not. But again, I think it's more suited to be treated as an exception, rather than part of the rule. And this also goes for the theories created here.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 02:48:33 pm by Acacia Sgt »

TheMage

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2015, 02:27:24 am »
Thread resurrection! For anyone still lurking.

 So i've been re-watching the CE memorial lately and i'm kind of curious about the Medina Peninsula. One of the little goblins mentions that its been recently finished and has a strange hum at night.

Also Ozzie VIII is missing and i'm wondering if there is a connection? If you read the note by the spy in Porre I think its pretty clear that Porre is up to no good involving the mystics, - it sounds like they killed Ozzie the VIII but I wasn't sure if there was anything more to the rock or a way to enter it?