Author Topic: unknown variables  (Read 1927 times)

satchel_dawg

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unknown variables
« on: January 04, 2010, 01:29:13 pm »
It's been a long while since I've posted anything, but last night I came up with an interesting theory so I thought I'd share it. I don't know if this idea has been posted before, if it has I'm sorry for wasting your time, but if not yippee for me.

during the original telepod incident their were a few interesting things that you may have noticed. first off the gate disappeared after Crono's initial arrival, then marle disappeared when leene was put into a threatening situation which proves that Marle had no time travellers immunity despite having time travelled. interestingly enough throughout the rest of the game the characters seem to be immune to any drastic changes in the time line, in fact despite big things happening very little seems to change. based on Marle's lack of immunity to the time change i think the entity was not responsible for the original gate opening at the telepod exhibit, instead i think the entity only got involved after time changed because of Leene, hence the reappearance of the gate later.

whether the telepod is powerful enough to create a wormhole i don't know, but i think it's possible since the machine is capable of transferring matter into energy, so adding the pendant caused a stable wormhole to form temporarely. i say it was temporary because immediately after dumping Crono in 600 A.D. it disappears. I think the entity observed this event and since this being knows all that is to come it formulated a plan, the entity itself was unable to change history pyhsically so it influenced certain people to change it, since Crono and friends could both fight and stabilize the gates it decided to open up more wormholes, specifically linked to an event or time where the heroes could preferably alter history.

now think about later in the game, remember when Ayla decides to help the Crono gang and she leaves her time line? Ayla was an important figure in history, but her disappearance didn't seem to affect the time line like it should have. at this point in the game i think the entity has created certain unknown variables that act as placeholders in each time, these variables make the time line have the same outcome as if the person was there to fulfill it, but in reality that person was just temporarely replaced until their return to the time line. so in a way the entity causes the time lines to continue despite missing elements such as these important people, but these variables only apply to important persons and future events in history.

now think about these variables in the pendant situation, forget about timebastards theory for now. now in the original time line it is likely that Schala escaped the ocean palace incident alive and lived to pass down her pendant, ultimately resulting in Marle recieving it. but when the time line is changed and Schala is instead trapped in the darkness beyond time this part of history changes so that the pendant is missing from the time line, even though Crono and the gang still have the pendant. now think to later when serge frees Schala, since we don't know where Schala went after that we can assume that she was possibly returned to her correct time and thus continued the pendants existance in history, kid however stayed in serge's time since she was her own separate being.

so based on the pendants existance it is possible that the entity has the ability to predestine certain elements of the time line by adding an unknown variable to substitute for that person or object, such as, but this predestining happens only when neccassary. this accounts for why certain items and events are given the ability to exist despite certain changes in the time line, this also accounts for why Crono has the ability to die and not affect the time line. when an important history changing event happens the entity can either let it change the future, such as the Fiona's forest thing, or it can substitute that event or person with a variable in order to change the outcome.

now just in case i botched up the explanation completely I'll add an example to explain the basic principles of this theory.

say for instance at the age of 34 a doctor creates a cure for cancer, that cure would within the next century would save a billion lives. it goes without saying that this cure is a big factor in history, since out of that billion people several of them influence the time line in a big way. now lets say for some reason that the same doctor disappears from the time line at the age of 26, meaning that the cure is never created and that billion of people dies causing the time line to be completely different from what it was, it is here that the entity would place an unknown variable. this variable could be nearly anything such as another doctor of that time discovering the cure or another of endless amounts of potential solutions. now lets say that doctor reappeared again at the age of 27, since he returned the entity removes that unknown variable and allows the time line to proceed normally. that in a nutshell is what unknown variable theory is.

so what do you think? possible? not possible?

Asafigow

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Re: unknown variables
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2010, 02:47:51 pm »
First, these are all good examples, but here are some things I saw

The telepod incident: You might be forgetting the gate key. After Lucca comes through the gate with that, the gate is now and forever accessible. Though, the Marle thing, you got me there

The Ayla incident: Really, the time line wouldn't change at all as long as she returns to 65,000,000B.C. at the end of the game, in which she did. The entity wouldn't need something in place for her as long as she gets back.

Schala's Pendant: she didn't have it any more after the ocean palace was destroyed. In CT, when you go to either end Magus or add him to your party, you get Schala's pentant as an accessory

The doctor example: Again, as long as he returns, there's no need for another variable to be put in place. Although, if he did not return, the I suppose this theory could take effect

satchel_dawg

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Re: unknown variables
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2010, 05:57:44 pm »
the schala pendant thing was a reach to begin with.

but i still think some sort of variable would need to fall into place for the time travellers, because again back to the queen leene thing marle did disappear even though she should have had time travellars immunity, and also marle ceased to exist the second leene was put into a potentially fatal situation.

as for the ayla incident you have to remember that any of the characters could have died at any point, there was never a guarentee they'd come back, after the first 600 a.d. trip the time travelling mechanism changes a lot. if leene just being put into danger pulled marle out of existance than ayla being put into danger would change quite a lot as she was important to the time line. i think that since the time travelling rules change after the first time i'd say the entity put in a variable in order to stop major changes like that.

Asafigow

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Re: unknown variables
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2010, 06:48:51 pm »
Again, a variable is not needed until there has been a major change. Take Crono's first travel to 600A.D. He proves your theory by saving Leene when Marle disappears. But it's not until Marle disappears that Crono is needed.

In Alya's case, nothing is needed until something goes wrong. But there are things already variables set in place to take care of that, i.e. potions, athenian waters, etc. (Even the reset button helps from time to time, but lets get serious :) ) Nothing needs to placed in the time period that the person is from as long as something is around them to stop them from dying. Basically, why put something in place of some that might die while you could just place things to keep them alive?

satchel_dawg

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Re: unknown variables
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2010, 10:37:06 am »
but marle disapears just when theirs a possiblity of leene dieing, so the future changed immediately just because of a chance that something could go wrong. so if ayla was even possibly threatened then the same event should occur but doesn't, anotherwords something is put into place to stop the same type of incident from occuring again, it is only put in for a temporary time so that even if the time traveller dies their role in history is still carried out.

plus once a person leaves their timeline the future should change because their disappeared from that time line. time in the crono universe isn't predestined so the time line has no way of realizing that the person will return to carry out their function, so naturally their would have to be a variable put in place to account for this.

Asafigow

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Re: unknown variables
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2010, 02:42:30 pm »
Well, if the future changed immediately, then why is Crono not subject to paradox? It was Marle who got him to go through the gate in the first place. If she no longer exists, then why is Crono not reset back to his own time line? Your theory is true to an extent: Variables need to be put into place to keep history going as it should no matter what happens at any one point in time. But the part I'm trying to get at is that they're not always put in the timeline that the subject came from. Again, in Leene and Marle's case, Crono would be the variable. Without him to save Leene, the future would change. Notice that if he wasn't placed in the past, Marle's future wouldn't go right, let alone exist. TTI is also another variable. Marle may not get it at first, but Crono sure does. This is the key part in what makes this all possible.

As for Ayla, and again the doctor example, as long as the variable returns to the point  in time that they originated from, nothing has to change.

All in all, tis' a good theory. But have you found evidence to prove it?

satchel_dawg

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Re: unknown variables
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2010, 10:30:38 am »
As for Ayla, and again the doctor example, as long as the variable returns to the point  in time that they originated from, nothing has to change.
All in all, tis' a good theory. But have you found evidence to prove it?

again the crono universe isn't predestined, these people can sustain a permanent death... so the time line wouldn't know if they would return or not, so if ayla leaves the past and goes to the future than her role in history would disapear since she no longer exist their, so a variable would have to fall into place until she returned.

of course i have no evidence, that's why it's a theory. the only way you could know whats true or not is if the game specifically stated it, so otherwise you just have to hypothesize. i just came up with the theory for fun, it seemed possible so i posted it, in the end though nothing can ever be proven because the time travel mechanics are never described in depth their merely seen through events.

utunnels

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Re: unknown variables
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2010, 01:28:36 am »
As for Ayla, that is much like in Back to the Future, one can meet his son in future. The protagonist departs before he has a son and no one knows wether he'll be back to his era.

The past is unique, but the future, hmm, it is composed by choices so there are infinite possibilities. So timetravel to the future will encounter a problem: *which* future?




desrever2

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Re: unknown variables
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2010, 07:54:42 am »
Every cause and effect, that Crono has in history, is predetermined. There is no other way Belthasar would have known that Crono would need the Epoch, and that he would have a charged Pendant, which opens the Zealian doors to it. There's only one problem- the Black Omen. If Crono's decisions eventually lead to the birth of the Black Omen, then why does it not exist from the very beginning? There has to be a 'variable' in there, somewhere.

As for Ayla, she would eventually go back home at the end of the game without changing much. She doesn't die in the story, and she's uninterested in understanding or documenting all the details she can't comprehend. So, I don't think her short absence from home really affects the future.