Author Topic: Park Your Amusements Here  (Read 98621 times)

Lord J Esq

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Re: Park Your Amusements Here
« Reply #660 on: June 03, 2011, 08:37:47 am »
I don't think I'm some Second Coming of Jesus, but...

There are so many good ways to finish that sentence. =)

Kodokami

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Re: Park Your Amusements Here
« Reply #661 on: June 03, 2011, 11:46:47 pm »
My PS3 had a rage quit.



Silly PS3.

Sajainta

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Re: Park Your Amusements Here
« Reply #662 on: June 04, 2011, 12:01:54 am »
This isn't an amusement; it's hilarity.

Licawolf

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Re: Park Your Amusements Here
« Reply #663 on: June 04, 2011, 05:22:38 pm »
I just read this at tumblr... have you heard this song from pokemon black? [youtube]V4u6ht7TtVo[/youtube]
Does it sounds a little like memories of green from chrono trigger? http://youtu.be/FccgRabaOc0

Some people also say that it's more like the Light world dungeon from aLttP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVWpFXtHhPc

What do you think?  :shock:

tushantin

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Re: Park Your Amusements Here
« Reply #664 on: June 04, 2011, 06:31:18 pm »
It's rainy, and a hell swarm of insects managed to get into several homes (including mine). One insect keeps running around in circles on top of a cloth above a small TV. Something tells me it's screaming, "WHEEEEEEEEEEE!" in it's itty-bitty insecty language. Okay, now it lost its balance and fell.

What do you think?  :shock:
Here is what I think:

If you steal from one author, it’s plagiarism; if you steal from many, it’s research.” --Wilson Mizner

 :lol: The Chrono series is a set of ultimate weapons that can spark dreams in the hearts of artists, set ablaze the torches of revolution and bring on world peace. GODDAMMIT, Square Enix has the answer to the Meaning of Life and it still doesn't realize it yet!

@Saj: Lass, you have some points right and some points wrong. The right points: Jesus is not accepted by Jews as a Messiah, and that he failed to fulfill Missianic Prophecies. But what you forget is that he did not start Christianity. It began long after his death. He was baptized by John the Baptist, who was also a Jew and was leading a Jewish movement. After John's death, Jesus took over the movement (well, half of it anyway).

Secondly, Rabbi meant two things back in those days: one being Jewish Orthodox Rabbi, second being Sage or Teacher. The Messiah you're talking about isn't Rabbi, rather Prophet or Christ he was later known as (again, long after his death). He wasn't accepted as a Messiah by the Jews, but that doesn't mean he wasn't accepted as a teacher as well. http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/archives/199

Sajainta

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Re: Park Your Amusements Here
« Reply #665 on: June 05, 2011, 06:26:59 am »
Can you please explain how Jesus did not start Christianity?

tushantin

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Re: Park Your Amusements Here
« Reply #666 on: June 05, 2011, 06:32:11 am »
My first amusement: Saj's Reply number.
Quote
Reply #666 on: Yesterday at 09:17:54 PM »

OMG SHE'S GONNA BE RIDING A BEAST OF APOCALYPSE!!  :lol: Gyarados, I choose you!

Okay, back to my argument. Well, maybe not, perhaps just my opinions on this one.

Although I consider the Bible to be a treasure-trove of moral/biographical teachings and certain wisdom, I also find it historically inaccurate due to various translators and religious leaders abusing the gospels for political purposes and enforcing their own bias long after Jesus' death. This is the reason why I sometimes read Quran and Torah alongside it (even though both of the latter are also tainted in some range). I assume that "accepting Jesus as your savior" was a mere slogan for the Rabbinic movement he continued after John the Baptist, but there's a lot of things that got carried on to the present times needlessly, especially misinterpreting that slogan. Funny enough, back then he was simply called Jesus of Nazareth. The term Christ or Christianity seemed to have come several centuries later. Sure, his teachings were different from the orthodox Jewish ones, but that does not mean he began the religion. I still need evidence on this one.

Here's something of interest. The Early Christianity (as it is now known as) began with mere teachings of Jesus and was still part of Jewish Theology. Jesus never intended to start a new religion. Thing is, the split occurred after his death when some Jews wanted to accept Jesus as a Messiah while others didn't because he failed to fulfill those rules.

Here's the Chronological order:
Quote
The Gospels say that the temple guards (believed to be Sadducees) arrested him and turned him over to the Roman governor Pontius Pilate for execution. The movement he had started survived his death and was carried on by his brother James the Just and the apostles who proclaimed the resurrection of Jesus.[9] After splitting with Rabbinic Judaism, it developed into Early Christianity.

Reading between the lines, it says much.

Sajainta

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Re: Park Your Amusements Here
« Reply #667 on: June 05, 2011, 06:56:24 am »
See, I'm going on the Bible with this one and believe that this is all your opinion, not an argument.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a Jew who thinks that the early Church's teachings aligned with Jewish theology.  According to all the Jews I know, they think that Jesus saying he was God is pantheistic.  Early Jews found it heathenistic, equating it to the Romans, who were also pantheistic, because the Jews were taught that there was only one God.  Then there was the whole communion thing, which was viewed as cannibalism.  Jesus taught Christian theology, which was new and was completely different.  He established a new covenant, which dismisses a lot of the Torah.  He makes a claim that sounds pantheistic.  He says he is the only way to Heaven.  Those are definitely not Jewish teachings.

True, the term Christianity didn't arise until later, but a religion is much more than a name.

Your assumption that the whole "Jesus is your saviour" thing was a slogan is just that--an assumption.

Just from reading the Bible, I believe I have all the evidence I need that Jesus started a new religion.  He preached new theology--theology that would become the basic tenants of a new religion.  Biblical evidence, according to Christians, is all the evidence needed.  Now, you're not a Christian so I'm not exactly sure if anything I'm saying even holds any weight.

The Biblical Jesus may have not "intended" to start a new religion, but he sure set out some pretty wacky theology that made little sense to most Jews.  I believe theology is the core of religion.  Not traditions.  Not buildings.  Not names.  Theology.  Jesus started that core.

This is all from a Biblical standpoint, mind you.  I'm playing Devil's Advocate on the behalf of someone who's a Christian.  I think the Bible is 99% bollocks, but it's extremely obvious to me that Jesus started what we now know as Christianity.

Also:: my father is a theologian.  He has a PhD in early church history.  I grew up talking about this stuff, and I know that he'd agree with me.

I apologise if this is muddled; I am very tired and drunk.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 06:58:03 am by Sajainta »

tushantin

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Re: Park Your Amusements Here
« Reply #668 on: June 05, 2011, 07:47:23 am »
According to all the Jews I know, they think that Jesus saying he was God is pantheistic.
Then all the Jews you've consulted would be wrong. True, many people called him Lord, true many modern Christians consider him as an avatar/equivalent/reincarnation of God, but the original Bible never had Jesus claiming that he was God. There is no evidence of him claiming this historically either. He respected and worshiped the Jewish God and spread his wisdom far, he referred to Jehova as Father, essentially because according to their philosophy that all humans are but children of God. Even Trinitarianism came from mistranslated and political prejudice than anything else.


Early Jews found it heathenistic, equating it to the Romans, who were also pantheistic, because the Jews were taught that there was only one God.  Then there was the whole communion thing, which was viewed as cannibalism.  Jesus taught Christian theology, which was new and was completely different.  He established a new covenant, which dismisses a lot of the Torah.  He makes a claim that sounds pantheistic.  He says he is the only way to Heaven.  Those are definitely not Jewish teachings.
I would like to know what you mean by Pantheistic. No, skip the dictionary, because I already know what it is (and have known it for a long time now). I would like to know what you think Pantheism is.

Your assumption that the whole "Jesus is your saviour" thing was a slogan is just that--an assumption.
XD It is! But it's a fairly logical assumption knowing what the background was back then, and it would make sense. See, Jesus' teachings had a groundbreaking impact on the Jewish community and coincided with allegories and legends that he simply became the leader that many had been waiting for. But despite the fall of the Romans he was still revered and their community stood strong. The slogan may have become a seminal part of their undying faith. It simply means, "Accept Christ as your savior and live by his wisdom" or something along those lines. It's the "Live by his wisdom" part that seems to get left about.

Just from reading the Bible, I believe I have all the evidence I need that Jesus started a new religion.
Okay, I won't argue about your views on whether he started the religion or not on this one, but I must ask this personal question: I thought you were an Atheist? If you're a Christian then I can understand that statement, and am willing to drop my arguments with respect to your faith, but if you're an Atheist then that's no excuse for your assumptions of evidence. When it comes to research one source isn't sufficient as it is, in one way or another, bound by changes or prejudiced abuse, which would make it inaccurate on further reading. One source doesn't give you all the data you require to deduce what is factual and what is not. No evidence again brings you on grounds in between, and evidence against factor might have one or more assumptions dismissed.

He preached new theology--theology that would become the basic tenants of a new religion.  Biblical evidence, according to Christians, is all the evidence needed.  Now, you're not a Christian so I'm not exactly sure if anything I'm saying even holds any weight.
I would agree with this point, but take notice of what I emphasized in your statement. Yes, it would become, but it wasn't then. Simple as that.

The Biblical Jesus may have not "intended" to start a new religion, but he sure set out some pretty wacky theology that made little sense to most Jews.  I believe theology is the core of religion.  Not traditions.  Not buildings.  Not names.  Theology.  Jesus started that core.
I drop my argument here. This statement just sounds fascinating to me. :)

Sajainta

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Re: Park Your Amusements Here
« Reply #669 on: June 05, 2011, 08:15:25 am »
First of all, I mixed up pantheism with polytheism.  I have NO idea how I made such a dumb mistake.  Told you I was drunk.  :/  Please disregard anything I said about pantheism.

I'm sure you know what polytheism is, living in a country that practices Hinduism.  The Jews think Christians are polytheistic because Christians believe in the Trinity--that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are separate beings and yet all God at the same time.

True, many people called him Lord, true many modern Christians consider him as an avatar/equivalent/reincarnation of God, but the original Bible never had Jesus claiming that he was God. There is no evidence of him claiming this historically either.

"Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves." - John 14:9-11.

Sounds pretty clear-cut to me.

I would like to know what you mean by Pantheistic. No, skip the dictionary, because I already know what it is (and have known it for a long time now). I would like to know what you think Pantheism is.

See what I wrote at the top of the post.

From what my drunk mind remembers, pantheism is the belief that the universe and "god" are one in the same.  I'm not terribly familiar with pantheism.

Okay, I won't argue about your views on whether he started the religion or not on this one, but I must ask this personal question: I thought you were an Atheist? If you're a Christian then I can understand that statement, and am willing to drop my arguments with respect to your faith, but if you're an Atheist then that's no excuse for your assumptions of evidence. When it comes to research one source isn't sufficient as it is, in one way or another, bound by changes or prejudiced abuse, which would make it inaccurate on further reading. One source doesn't give you all the data you require to deduce what is factual and what is not. No evidence again brings you on grounds in between, and evidence against factor might have one or more assumptions dismissed.

I am an atheist, but I was arguing this point from a Christian perspective.  Sometimes I like to play Devil's Advocate (as noted in my last post).

I would agree with this point, but take notice of what I emphasized in your statement. Yes, it would become, but it wasn't then. Simple as that.

I misspoke.  I meant to say "theology that was".  Regardless, religions do not start overnight.  They begin with an idea, and then they grow.  I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a religion that sprang up immediately.  Religious teachers set the basic tenants for the new religion.  And then that religion grows.  Religions do, however, begin with theology.  Jesus planted the seeds of theology into the Apostles' minds, into Paul's mind, etc.  And then Christianity grew from there.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 08:21:44 am by Sajainta »

tushantin

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Re: Park Your Amusements Here
« Reply #670 on: June 05, 2011, 11:13:10 am »
Saj, you are absolutely right on that last sentence. Religions don't begin overnight (alas, some did begin overnight, and their foundations were so weak they crippled within a century; it's surprising Scientology remains as strong). But I'm having too much fun here poking you with a stick (sorry), so here's an analogy: suppose you devise an idea which might be a part of Atheism, but is much more open so much so that people would call it Neo Atheism, then after your death, several centuries later, some nutjob interprets your teachings and ideas and considers you as the first priest of a newfound religion. Then what? XD

Okay, that analogy was just a fun interpretation rather than a part of a serious discussion.

First of all, I mixed up pantheism with polytheism.  I have NO idea how I made such a dumb mistake.  Told you I was drunk.  :/  Please disregard anything I said about pantheism.
:lol: It's okay. Even if it's a mistake, I'm kinda glad that someone mentioned Pantheism.

I'm sure you know what polytheism is, living in a country that practices Hinduism.  The Jews think Christians are polytheistic because Christians believe in the Trinity--that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are separate beings and yet all God at the same time.
Actually, Christianity was and began as Monotheistic, where the only deity was Father (Jehova), the very same as the Jews. Islamic also worship the same deity, only differentiating the name (Allah). The Trinitarianism (aka God, Jesus and Holy Spirit) began with a simple mistranslation, affecting the majority of faith where they considered Jesus to be equivalent to God. Remove that mistranslation and it returns to Monotheism.  :)

"Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves." - John 14:9-11.

Sounds pretty clear-cut to me.
Hardly clear cut. He mentioned that they would know God through him, but he never specified that he was God. He said that he was in the Father, but he never specified that he was Father. He mentioned the Father was in him, but he never specified that the Father was him. "The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me" All of these may mean many things except that he is his own Father. It could mention that his teachings would help people see the nature of Father. It could mention that he loved his Father dearly.

Tell you what: ever heard of Ramayana? It's sort of like Chrono Trigger, minus the Time Travel, and Raavan makes an excellent Fiendlord. At the post-Ramayana legends where Ram and Sita go back to their Kingdom and become King and Queen (much like the end of Chrono Trigger), where Hanuman bows to them and tells them how Ram and Sita dwell within him. The jealous ones at the court scoffed and asked him to prove it. He tore his chest open and showed them the memories of Ram and Sita, all of it that was encased in love and admiration.

Now that certainly did not mean Hanuman was Ram and Sita. When sparring with his Vanar brothers, one of his colleagues did mention, "When you confront Hanuman you will know Lord Ram." This meant that battling Hanuman would make it clear of the courage, benevolence and determination of his Lord. It certainly did not mean he was Lord Ram.

On a side note: Whether you're an atheist or religious, the Ramayana was awesome!


Today's amusement: Saj's discussion provoked a simple thought in my head. I asked my boss, who was going to the Church today, whether the Church would welcome a non-Christian like me if I tagged along with you. He told me:

"Whoever you are, wherever you're from, you're always welcome."

He mentioned that his community does not discriminate against our views, are always open and always welcome people of every race, caste and status. It kinda made my day, especially since it's been years since I last went to a Church. I'd like this first hand experience.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Park Your Amusements Here
« Reply #671 on: June 05, 2011, 01:10:31 pm »
I will admit that I have lived a majority of life as an agnostic. The past few years I've been researching / soul-searching.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting Christianity, but ultimately the phrase "accepting Jesus into your heart" or "accepting Jesus as your personal savior" represents the understanding and acceptance of Grace in one's life. Many modern day Christians are under the belief that Christians are called to pure, holy, and completely perfect lives; this is false. Perfection was never a requirement - Jesus called his people (Christians) to attempt to be the best version of themselves, but by no means are they required to be perfect. After all Jesus, the people Jesus surrounded himself - including his disciples - were fallable humans. Rather than spend time with religious leaders and zealots, Jesus spent time with the people He called sinners. Ultimately Jesus' death allowed Him to be Grace (seeing as how perfection isn't necessary).

According to ancient Jewish tradition, when one sinned an animal sacrifice was demanded to atone for the sin. One could only be clean of sin after a priest made the sacrifice. When Jesus (the human incarnation of the Jewish God in Christian tradition) willingly died, he symbolically acted in the place of the sacrifice. However, Jesus' death broke the tradition of animal sacrifice, allowing mankind to obtain Grace by will alone.

Thus, by "accepting Jesus", one accepts that they are a fallible human being that has and will continue to mess up. By accepting Jesus, they acknowledge that should they mess up, Jesus' sacrifice atones for the "sin".

At least that's how I see it.

Quote
Where does the misunderstanding come from,
demanding that we be outstanding and then some?
Perfection never was a requirement
although some might say we desired it.
So then for times when things get old I might get cynical
I see that I don't see.
Do they see you when they see me?

In honesty there's room for improvement
Thoughts may change, the truth be told,
A closed mind will leave you empty
Use your mind to use your soul.

Alert the press, their dogmas are a mess,
Opinions shift, a broken sift, an empty hand,
And billboards ask, 'where do they stand.'
Do all streams lead to one sea?

Logically there's room for all questions
Though the answers aren't all known,
Objectivities the myth of plenty,
Who doubt His truth within their soul.

tushantin

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Re: Park Your Amusements Here
« Reply #672 on: June 05, 2011, 03:14:50 pm »
I really NEED to type this here and now.

I was coming back from work, see, and there was this boy following an annoyed girl around, all the while being sarcastic. I didn't hear the whole thing through, but here's what I did hear (translated):

Boy: It's like axing your own toe. So is it your big toe or the little toe?
Girl: Grrr, GO TO HELL!
Boy: (Rolls his eyes) Geez, if I only knew the address...
Girl: Sure, it's right around the corner, take a left turn and FUCK OFF!
Boy: Ooh, you know so much! You must have been there plenty.
Girl: Yeah, with idiots like you following me around, I die every day.

(A random dude walks up to boy)

Dude: What's wrong with you, harassing a woman in the middle of the road? She's like your sister?
Boy: Like my sister? Unfortunately, she is my sister! Now get lost before she ties you a Rakhi too.
Girl: Ew, no! Why would I do that?
Boy: Oh what was that pledge you took back in school? All Indians are my Brothers and Sisters?

I LOL'd.  :lol:

Thought

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Re: Park Your Amusements Here
« Reply #673 on: June 05, 2011, 03:18:10 pm »
The Jews think Christians are polytheistic because Christians believe in the Trinity--that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are separate beings and yet all God at the same time.

Just to be clear, the doctrine of the Trinity is that they are three persons yet still the same one God. As this makes no logical sense (tantamount to saying that 1+1+1=1), it isn't surprising that Jews (or anyone) would discount the unifying aspect of the doctrine. However, though not surprising, it is dishonest to discount that aspect of belief. Such an action would be similar to if Richard Dawkins discounted the Jewish believe in God and concluded that they were atheists.

Thus, by "accepting Jesus", one accepts that they are a fallible human being that has and will continue to mess up. By accepting Jesus, they acknowledge that should they mess up, Jesus' sacrifice atones for the "sin".

I would only add that it "accepting Jesus" is also a statement that one will try to better one's self.

Sajainta

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Re: Park Your Amusements Here
« Reply #674 on: June 05, 2011, 09:20:49 pm »
"Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves." - John 14:9-11.

Sounds pretty clear-cut to me.
Hardly clear cut. He mentioned that they would know God through him, but he never specified that he was God. He said that he was in the Father, but he never specified that he was Father. He mentioned the Father was in him, but he never specified that the Father was him. "The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me" All of these may mean many things except that he is his own Father. It could mention that his teachings would help people see the nature of Father. It could mention that he loved his Father dearly.

Alright then, here you go::

"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."  - John 8:24.

"Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."  - John 8:58.

(You'll need to re-read Exodus if you want to understand the "I AM" part.)

"I and My Father are one." - John 10:30.

"And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" " - John 20:28.

Clear-cut.  If you still don't agree, then I really don't know what to say to you other than you should take a Christian theology course.