Author Topic: Fuck Sexism. Fuck Misandry.  (Read 1108 times)

Sajainta

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Fuck Sexism. Fuck Misandry.
« on: November 15, 2009, 06:09:58 am »
Perhaps it is because this forum is mostly populated by males, but I've felt--having read through the entire "Fuck Sexism" thread--that misandry has not really been addressed on this site.  Of course, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.  I have the horrid habit of skimming sometimes.

I have been hesitant to write this post because I was scared I would deeply offend or deeply hurt many of you (or perhaps you would be both offended AND hurt), but it is something I need to get off my chest.  It has been kept a secret for too long, and I have only told a few people.

It will be no surprise to many of you who know a bit about me and my past that for a very long time I was a misandrist.  Almost 10 years, from the time when I was 9 up until I was almost 19.  Something abominably horrid happened to me when I was 9 that caused me to fear and hate men.  That fear and hatred did not go away, but was only magnified by what happened when I was 14 and 15, back when I was in Hell.

I hated all men, regardless of their ethnicity, age, or nationality.  I was deeply, deeply frightened of them, and I was terrified that they were going to hurt me.  This included my father and my brothers, even though they have never, EVER hurt me in any way or have given me any cause to loathe or fear them.  And that was sexist.  I do not care if it was understandable, it was sexist all the same.

I've been blogging for over 5 years, and I've met many other women who have been abused in some way or another by men.  Many of them feel the same way I did for a long time.  And that is sexist.  I feel their pain, and I understand, but it is sexist.

I no longer despise all males.  It was a choice I made back when I was 18.  I reflected upon my hatred, and knew that it needed to stop.  I understood (and I still understand now) that my fear of men will never entirely go away, but it is not fair for me to hate half the population of the Earth.  So I let go of my hatred.

Soon after that I met D, my boyfriend.  He is the single most kind, patient, compassionate, and gentle person I have ever met.  His love is the closest thing to unconditional.  He puts up with so much of my shit, and so many of my issues and phobias and mental disorders.  And believe me...it's very difficult to date someone with so many issues.  Yet he stays with me, through all of my internal struggles and through all of the external horrors that have happened to us since we've started dating (which I won't go into).  He still stays, and I love him all the more for it.  Plus, he's the reason I love the Chrono series.  ^_^

I trust D, completely and fully.  I never thought that would happen.  Ever.

Unfortunately, he is the only man whom I completely and truly trust.  He is the only man I do not fear.

(This stretches beyond gender--he is the only person period whom I fully trust and do not fear, but that is not the point of this post.)

My trust for my father and brothers has grown, but I still do not trust them fully.  I still fear them.  I still fear my male friends.  I fear all of you male Compendiumites, reading this.  And I am sorry.

This next part will be very difficult to write...  And I know it is irrational.

I have this secret, underlying, terrible fear that the only purpose of men talking to me, befriending me, or being kind to me is based on sexual desire.  (This is not based on arrogance, this is a fear.)

Even worse (and it pains and horrifies me to admit this), I am terrified, absolutely terrified, that every single male I know (save my boyfriend) secretly wants to hurt me very badly.  Beat me, use me, rape me.

I have this underlying, horrific fear that all men on this planet have the potential to be rapists, or are rapists in training, or are rapists only in their mind.

And it is disgusting, I know.  And it is irrational, I know.  And it is awful and sexist, I know.  I hate myself for feeling this way and for having this fear.

I am sorry, Compendiumites.  I am trying to counter this underlying hatred and fear.  It is very difficult.  I am trying.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 06:13:18 am by Sajainta »

KebreI

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Re: Fuck Sexism. Fuck Misandry.
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2009, 02:10:31 pm »
Sajainta, why the hell are you apologizing? I am not really the guy to give moral advice and such, hell I willing do "wrong" things all the time. Your hatred for males is based on past experience, and the have a fucked up track record so hate 'em.

Example: I have a friend who when he was little had some black kids beat the crap out of him, several times. Know that he didn't hate black people only those people. But later one in middle school his was just beaten on the street by more black people, different people. In the area we lived in African-americans were not that common, but he developed an natural mistrust for them. Is that racist? Or it that a rational decision made from past experiences and legit observation?

I would argue that it is the second, and if he met more people and his sample size grew he would change his view of them, and the violent people would become the outliers. Just as you have seen in D, until then you and my friend have a valid view of people. So don't think it wrong to hate them just because its "sexist" your eyes know you have a reason, a good reason for fearing men.

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism. Fuck Misandry.
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2009, 02:17:25 pm »
Yes, as Krebel said, there's absolutely no need to apologize here.

After what you've been through, I don't see this as irrational so much as a developed survival instinct. There are evil men in the world -- a lot of them. It's interesting to discover how involved women are as well in some of these power structures, how they aid and abet, but the burden still falls squarely on our shoulders as men, because we've inherited a system in which we are, and our male ancestors were, comparatively privileged. Even if it's a woman who supplies human trafficking victims, her customers are statistically more likely to be men.

Statistically speaking, according to the Department of Justice 90% of rapes that happen on college campuses are acquaintance rape, not stranger rape.

And lest any man believe this stuff hasn't touched his life, I think each of us could recall examples of the following in our environment: acquaintance rape ("date rape" is an outmoded term when it happens in a freakin' crowd setting); male-on-female sexual harassment, and even sexual harassment of ourselves by other men (high school shower rooms...ick).

We, as men, need to confront this. We need to confront what it is inside ourselves that can allow these things to happen. And that hurts too, from a man's perspective; studying these issues and the history of abuse men have allowed into our society, I also feel pangs of misandry from time to time. Robert Jensen has expressed the very same thing. Others may feel this as well. It's emotionally exhausting.

But speaking as a man, hating one's own flesh and identity is no way forward on these issues. It's time to struggle with ourselves, to prove to ourselves and to history that people of the masculine variety can be just as full, nurturing human beings as people of the feminine variety.

Robert Jensen describes feminism as a gift to men. This has been so true in my experience; when you adopt the label "feminist" or "pro-feminist" as a man, you've stepped into a world where you need to question yourself vehemently, to question your motives in life, and honestly. Most importantly, it forces you to empathize, and that, I believe, is the key to solving some of these issues. When a man victimizes somebody, even though he be sane every other moment of his life, in that one moment of victimization he has lost the ability to empathize.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 04:11:51 pm by FaustWolf »

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Re: Fuck Sexism. Fuck Misandry.
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2009, 06:29:34 pm »
I must concur with Kebrel's and Faust's sentiment; your distrust of males has been earned by our gender, unfortunately, and thus apologies are not necessary and they are not thus far warranted.

But allow me to go a bit further as suggest that such mistrust might not even be misplaced here on the compendium. In my own observations of male/female interactions I have noticed that truly platonic friendships are the exception rather than the rule. This is not to say that the guys here are pleased to have you in our ranks just because of some perceived mating opportunity, but rather that if we were an "average" group of guys, I would suspect that your fear would be founded in reality. I hope that in terms of the compendium, you have nothing to fear since I would like to think that we are above such vulgarities, but I would not dare to comment definitively on it.

I have noticed that there is a behavior fairly common among guys that I suppose one might label "femdar." Guys are incredibly competent at noticing gals and evaluating them based on relationship criteria. It seems that being able to turn this off is a learned behavior but do note that it can be turned off. Male/female friendships are quite possible, but they require conscious effort.

To note, thus far I have really only talked about men and friendships in the abstract. To be here more specific to the compendium, do allow me to point out that you have done much to merit the development of true friendship. It isn't like you just showed up one day, said "OMG I have boobies and I like Chrono," and the compendium was falling over itself to accept you. You participated in discussion intelligently, offering unique and valuable insights that the compendium lacked. You have been open, friendly, intelligent, and interesting; therefore some reciprocation should be expected. In short, though you have only been with us for a few months, you have earned your place here.

I think it would be acceptable if I said that the guys here at the compendium would prefer it if you didn't fear us, but as for not trusting us... meh. As mentioned, you have good cause founded in the past. Who am I to gainsay the past?! Trust when trust has been earned.

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism. Fuck Misandry.
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2009, 07:03:21 pm »
Ha, "femdar." It's like gaydar, but hetero. I'll back Thought up on that from my own experience as well. As soon as a man walks into a room, within the next ten seconds he knows the position of every woman in the room, as if this were Metal Gear Solid with its onscreen radar. When he talks to a woman he finds attractive part of his mind is devoted to the mission of discovering whether there's any kind of ring on her finger. It's subconscious, and happens that fast. What I'm not sure about is whether it's completely a societal construct or if this is an evolutionary throwback. And I'm not sure whether women experience these kinds of things to the same degree as we do.

I agree that platonic friendships are (or at least can be) a learned behavior. In my case, it literally necessitated having a lesbian co-worker for an extended period of time for me to finally dissociate femininity from sexual desire, at least to the degree necessary to have dinner with a woman and actually be more interested in how a conversation was going to mutually enrich us than whether she was in a relationship already. Also of import were friendships I entered with married and seriously dating women while in college. In high school I might have brushed these women off mentally, and I would have been developmentally handicapped for it, in a sense. That's what patriarchal culture can do to a man; it places the comparative advantage on spending time with single (or otherwise "accessible") women and "scoring" as opposed to engaging discussion with anybody.

The lesson learned, IMO, is not only that contact with women is a good thing for men, but that quality of contact is incredibly important; forming coed discussion groups in a class is probably superior to just shoving girls and boys into the same classroom, to use an educational environment analogy.


One thing I'm interested in is, is there anything we males are doing here that turns off female forum participation? Now that online communication is becoming a real factor in our lives that shapes human development, it's curious that men still seem so dominant in Internet discussion groups, as ZaiChik pointed out to me awhile ago. No holds are barred here, so there's no reason not to observe something that merits observing.

EDIT: To offer one thing on that last note, I worry that my frank discussion of pornography in the "Fuck Sexism! (Fuck Misogyny)" thread may have transformed it into an all-male discussion somehow. There was a time in college when a (female) econ professor made a joke about pornography and all the male students laughed, but I noticed the female friend sitting next to me did not; despite all the rhetoric about how women watch porn just as much as men, I'm not sure whether it typically puts women off or not. Some segments of the media would have us believe that it does not, and that could be a lie; I really don't know.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 08:53:48 pm by FaustWolf »

Lord J Esq

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Re: Fuck Sexism. Fuck Misandry.
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2009, 09:44:47 pm »
Most of the time I'm not one to demand apologies, but I think the three of you, in your eagerness to be sympathetic, may have failed to consider the place where this apology came from. It seemed to me like Sajainta was apologizing for personal reasons, not to earn anyone's forgiveness or sympathy. Perhaps I'm mistaken in that, but it's easy to see how I could be right. For one thing, there is the fact that not all males are rapists or even harassers, and in this community we've always been quick to discourage lumping people together in groups when the group descriptions are not inherently representative of the character of the individuals. For another thing, if Sajainta strives toward the same standards of self-betterment that we do, she is totally in the right to recognize a prejudice within her--whether or not that prejudice may be emotionally justifiable--and to want to do better than that in her thoughts and even, eventually, her feelings.

If I'm right, then it's not an apology that's ours to accept...and we don't really have any place rejecting it, either.

As for the subject of misandry itself, I think, as I just pointed out, it is more emotionally justifiable than misogyny is. It would be hard to paint an interpretation of history where females were the aggressors and males the victims. Males are more likely much more likely to find sexist outlets in their search for sexual partnership and social validation. Whether that's genetic or social, it's undeniable that malekind produces a lot of sexists. And, frankly, "sexist" in this wider sense is almost a euphemism, since what we're usually talking about is rape, murder, and slavery. Who wouldn't resent that?

But to hold males a group solely responsible for the kinds of abuses which are more common to males is still sexism, as surely as racism is upheld by pointing out the cultural disparities between blacks and whites and then using that to make blanket judgments about all members of the various communities. It simply isn't defensible to hold all males responsible for the abuses of misogyny, because it assumes that practically every male is either a rapist or a rapist-in-waiting, and that's not true. We are a domesticated species. We can be made to accept--or reject--almost any premise. I think of that every time I think of the Sean Hannity show and consider that he gets a larger audience than Rachel Maddow.

Misandry, like misogyny, is practiced by both sexes and is just as counterproductive--albeit not as destructive--as its counterpart. Many of the problems with our images of masculinity are generated from misandristic sources...which are often themselves misogynistic in intent. For instance, there's a stigma on crying (unless they're "manly" tears). The unspoken--or, in the case of "manly," spoken--implication is that crying is weak and only females do it. That itself is misogynistic, but the ban on a perfectly reasonable behavior is misandristic because it punishes males. A cleaner example of a more direct form of misandry is the idea that males are somehow stupider, coarser, less sensitive, and less considerate than females are. This one is practiced by both sexes, and it's all wrong. Individual variation once again defies sex-specific categorizations. And then there's something like this:

Quote from: FaustWolf
As soon as a man walks into a room, within the next ten seconds he knows the position of every woman in the room, as if this were Metal Gear Solid with its onscreen radar. When he talks to a woman he finds attractive part of his mind is devoted to the mission of discovering whether there's any kind of ring on her finger. It's subconscious, and happens that fast. What I'm not sure about is whether it's completely a societal construct or if this is an evolutionary throwback. And I'm not sure whether women experience these kinds of things to the same degree as we do.

Look at that last sentence. His reasonable and well-meaning expression of ignorance is nevertheless a glaring affirmation that he saw fit to judge all males in exactly the same manner which he was so hesitant to judge all of females. I think most people are too comfortable speaking on behalf of their entire sex simply by virtue of membership in it. Now, it may be true that males instinctively and instantaneously scan all individuals who come into their range for sexual desirability. Or it may not be true. Or it may be true for only some males. And he already admits he doesn't know how the equations balance for females. What, then, are we to make of the implications of the declaration?

More practically, misandry prevents males from otherwise legitimate behavioral outlets, and makes it more difficult for all people to judge male individuals objectively. I cannot but be against it, and I suspect we will find that defying misogyny cannot be achieved without defying misandry as well.

Anyone who proclaims their resistance to misandry, and is even willing to admit it of themselves--and we all do have some portion of sexism in ourselves, great or small, known or unseen--deserves acknowledgment. Sajainta may have structured her proclamation as an apology, but I think that says more about her perspective coming from a hard life, and very little about the significance of the proclamation itself.

Sajainta

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Re: Fuck Sexism. Fuck Misandry.
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2009, 09:48:43 pm »
One thing I'm interested in is, is there anything we males are doing here that turns off female forum participation? Now that online communication is becoming a real factor in our lives that shapes human development, it's curious that men still seem so dominant in Internet discussion groups, as ZaiChik pointed out to me awhile ago. No holds are barred here, so there's no reason not to observe something that merits observing.

I can't think of anything, honestly.  If I do think of something I will certainly make it known.

Quote
EDIT: To offer one thing on that last note, I worry that my frank discussion of pornography in the "Fuck Sexism! (Fuck Misogyny)" thread may have transformed it into an all-male discussion somehow. There was a time in college when a (female) econ professor made a joke about pornography and all the male students laughed, but I noticed the female friend sitting next to me did not; despite all the rhetoric about how women watch porn just as much as men, I'm not sure whether it typically puts women off or not. Some segments of the media would have us believe that it does not, and that could be a lie; I really don't know.

Personally, I feel I don't have much to add to the pornography issue because I don't watch porn.  I know that's not true of all females.  I can't help but wonder if women are less likely to talk about pornography because they feel guilty about viewing it.  Men are taught to embrace their (hetero) sexuality and be aggressive, whereas many women are taught that sex is a "bad" or "dirty" thing.  So while men are open and loud about their porn viewing habits, most women may not own up to it because they feel guilty.  Just a thought.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Fuck Sexism. Fuck Misandry.
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2009, 10:01:03 pm »
One thing I'm interested in is, is there anything we males are doing here that turns off female forum participation? Now that online communication is becoming a real factor in our lives that shapes human development, it's curious that men still seem so dominant in Internet discussion groups, as ZaiChik pointed out to me awhile ago. No holds are barred here, so there's no reason not to observe something that merits observing.

Ah, I had meant to address this and forgot about it.

Once again, asking whether "we males" are doing things here that might discourage "female" forum participation is an oversimplification on two counts, encompassing both aspects of sexism. The variety of male behaviors on the Compendium is very wide-ranging. Perhaps it can be said that Lord J, or ZeaLitY, or FaustWolf, or Truthordeal, or some combination of these, are discouraging some Compendiumites from participating, but, even then, this cannot defensibly be presented as a male problem. Maybe we're making this harder for ourselves than it could be, by not clarifying that behaviors which are "male" in class do not necessarily represent the species entire. At the same time, why assume that only females might be repulsed by certain behaviors?

As for your observation, Faust, it's a good observation, but the answer is disappointingly simple. Regardless of any efforts we may be making here to conquer bigotry, most people look no farther than their own sexual prejudices when determining their own sexual behavior. Females and males alike tend to sexually segregate themselves in the absence of further consideration. I suppose that goes all the way back to our animal history, but, wherever it comes from, it is as widely practiced today as it is outmoded. The Compendium began from another male-dominated forum, and that's just the hand we were dealt. I've noticed with much satisfaction, however, that, of late, our efforts to promote justice and humanism have been attracting more people to the community, a number of them female. That is, I think, a reflection on the quality of the character of our endeavor here.

Sajainta

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Re: Fuck Sexism. Fuck Misandry.
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2009, 10:28:30 pm »
Most of the time I'm not one to demand apologies, but I think the three of you, in your eagerness to be sympathetic, may have failed to consider the place where this apology came from. It seemed to me like Sajainta was apologizing for personal reasons, not to earn anyone's forgiveness or sympathy. Perhaps I'm mistaken in that, but it's easy to see how I could be right. For one thing, there is the fact that not all males are rapists or even harassers, and in this community we've always been quick to discourage lumping people together in groups when the group descriptions are not inherently representative of the character of the individuals. For another thing, if Sajainta strives toward the same standards of self-betterment that we do, she is totally in the right to recognize a prejudice within her--whether or not that prejudice may be emotionally justifiable--and to want to do better than that in her thoughts and even, eventually, her feelings.

J is correct.  I was addressing a deeply ingrained prejudice of mine--one that I'm trying to eradicate.  A lot of people have said it's understandable, but it is still inherently sexist and inherently incorrect (because, as J said, obviously not all men are rapists).  Sexism, against men and women alike, is disgusting.  Judging an entire group of people based on the actions of a few is equally disgusting.  And I am doing both.  It's also very weak-minded.  So this is something I need to work on, not only on behalf of all the decent men out there but on behalf of my own intellectual and emotional growth.

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism. Fuck Misandry.
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2009, 11:52:19 pm »
J, thank you for pointing out the stereotyping in my commentary on "femdar." I could have posed that with greater sensitivity, perhaps even by following up with, "so do any other male Compendiumites catch themselves doing this on occasion?" prior to wondering whether women catch themselves doing the same thing.

But as far as the question about whether "we male" members here discourage female participation in any way goes, I still feel it's an important one to ask. That we are all individuals and behave with our own nuances doesn't change the possibility that common themes might run through our behavior, and that it might happen on such a basic level that we cannot see it ourselves. I thought it best to pose the question to a category of members other than men, to see if they had any particular insights on how our own broad category tends to behave here. I admit the question was specifically inspired by Dr. Jensen's article, "The Quagmire of Masculinity," and how he realized he himself sometimes slipped into the very behaviors he was trying to surmount.

It's not that I suspect anything of all male Compendiumites, but rather I sought reassurance that we are indeed as welcoming of members from diverse backgrounds as we believe ourselves to be. If non-male members feel we are behaving in ways that are stereotypically male, it would be an interesting thing to discover, and perhaps in the best interests of the community.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 12:40:20 am by FaustWolf »

Sajainta

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Re: Fuck Sexism. Fuck Misandry.
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2009, 12:18:47 am »
It's not that I suspect anything of all male Compendiumites, but rather I sought reassurance that we are indeed as welcoming of members from diverse backgrounds as we believe ourselves to be.

For what it is worth, Faust, I have felt more than welcome here.  I cannot speak for all female members, obviously, but personally my experiences here have been positive.  I said this very early on in the "Fuck Sexism" thread, and my thoughts have not changed.

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism. Fuck Misandry.
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2009, 12:39:26 am »
And to reiterate what Thought wrote earlier, we've also been enriched by your presence here immensely. There are major issues I didn't even know existed, let alone that it happens with the frequency it does in my own State, that I wouldn't have thought to begin investigating had it not been for you bringing them to our awareness.

That's why I was so concerned with making sure we weren't driving people away inadvertently; every person has valuable insights, and every bit of communication is therefore an opportunity to enrich oneself and others. I think many of us who frequent the Compendium would agree that the quality of discussion we have here either rivals or surpasses the quality of discussion we've had in non-Internet life.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 12:41:38 am by FaustWolf »