After the Chrono Bible, the Chrono Theogonia...

[YbrikMetaknight]

First off:  Let it be known that the Compendium's purpose is to find as close to absolute truth as possible, but it is not necessarily for the sake of merely "knowing" the truth.  Rather, it is something much more akin to what your theory serves for you, GoA:  Many of us--myself and Zeality included--are doing this so that we might write fanfics that are as close to the true spirit of the Chrono games (and can therefore be read as complements to the games); finding theories that the majority of Chrono fans, or at least Compendium users, can agree upon helps us toward this.  So in other words, we won't be promoting your theory because it's far from what we would want to use, not because we think it's just absolutely wrong.  You're right, we can't prove it wrong, but you can't prove it right either.

That said, I would very much like to see you expand upon it in a fanfic.  It might even be one that I read, as it sounds interesting.  You see, "rewritings" of the game, or telling it with a somewhat different or highly interpreted--the latter of which yours would be--plot aren't usually up my alley; I prefer to read fics which take place after the game and try to tell a new story in the feel of the original, or stories which either fill in holes--like what happened to Guardia, what happened to Lucca after she was kidnapped, etc.--or expand upon individual scenarios, maybe adding a little--like the FFVI fanfic I've been wanting to write for a long, long time expanding on the whole Crescent Island scenario in the World of Balance--to be among my favorite types of fanfics.  Sometimes I also like crossovers or fics that retell stories from a different perspective than the game follows (like my two fics that are posted--in their beginning stages--at http://www.icybrian.com/fanfic/ybrikmetaknight ), but only if they're done well.  In other words, I'm not sure I would read your fic just based on my personal taste in fanfics (although I might, because it intrigues me), but I certainly think many others would like to read it.  Hell, it's been a long time since I've really read any fanfics; I'm somewhat ashamed of myself in that regard. *hangs head in shame*

With regards to my statement that you need to think outside the box, I believe you interpreted it slightly differently than I meant.  I meant that you've been taking things very literally, specifically that the presence of A.D./B.C., a European-styled kingdom, and religious institutions or symbols like churches and nuns to mean that Christianity literally exists.  And so on and so forth with some of the other things, like Latin, Greek, etc., which is why I used Final Fantasy games to make a point, and why I brought the Masamune into discussion (it still blows my mind that CT/CC's Masamune is clearly a broadsword whereas the Masamunes in other games, along with the real-life namesakes, are katanas).  I meant that your theory took a lot of things very, very literally (it's now obvious to me that that's on purpose), and that's what I meant when I said you need to think more outside the box.  A little miscommunication on my part there.

You should type out longer posts in notepad, or at least copy and paste them into notepad before you submit.  Helps save yourself from frustratingly having to retype them.

And I would like to debate the scientific validity of evolution in another thread, perhaps in general discussion, if you wish; I'll let you make the first comments and start the thread.  I would just personally like to see your thoughts on the matter.

Finally, I think your theory is viable (if for no reason other than that we cannot truly, absolutely disprove it), although farfetched.

[Daniel Krispin]

Many of us--myself and Zeality included--are doing this so that we might write fanfics that are as close to the true spirit of the Chrono games (and can therefore be read as complements to the games)

Well, then you're doing a good job for sure. I skimmed over ZeaLitY's Gaspar part II story, and I must say that, all told, it was easily one of the best fanfics I have ever seen.

That said, I would very much like to see you expand upon it in a fanfic.  It might even be one that I read, as it sounds interesting.  You see, "rewritings" of the game, or telling it with a somewhat different or highly interpreted--the latter of which yours would be--plot aren't usually up my alley; I prefer to read fics which take place after the game and try to tell a new story in the feel of the original, or stories which either fill in holes--like what happened to Guardia, what happened to Lucca after she was kidnapped, etc.

Okay, misinterpretations seem to run rampant around me. I'm sorry if I mistakenly left the impression that my fanfic was a rewriting of the Chrono history; what I actually meant is that such history serves as a background to the story to which the characters, such as Schala, refer. Once or twice there are chapter notes that consist of such historical renderings, only to give the story a somewhat historical feel, if that is possible. However, the main part of my story is precisely one that take place after the ending of Chrono Cross. About...6 months or so after the ending. The main plot of the story, going to the most general possible, is actually the efforts of Guardia, and Crono in particular, to throw off the oppression of Porre; to that end, because his efforts are proving fruitless over the 15 or so years that he has been waging a guerrila war, he enlists the aid of other heroes. Specifically Janus and Schala, but the latter admonishes him to sail west to El Nido and seek out yet another, this being Serge. Thus it is a story that continues where Cross left off. The difference in tone from the games is such that Crono speaks in a more formal tongue, and so do Janus and Schala; Serge does not, and that is where I falter, so his speaking lines are few. More noticeable is the style of the larger scale battles against Porre, that are done in a more omnicient grandeous style. (for example, during the battle at the Fields of Truce: "Then Janus flung down his shield, and drew his sickle. And men fled from the twofold fear of his sickle and scythe, which he wielded one in each hand. A grim image of death incarnate, but perhaps even more terrifying for he was no myth to freeze the heart on dark nights, but a manifest terror that walked abroad in the daylight; a sorcerer prince of old the likes of which the world had long since forgotten, he came with all the might of the ancient world out of times past. And men ran from his onslaught rather than face him, crying that the King of Death had been set loose upon them, or that the power of Zeal was reborn. Few there were that would openly essay to match arms with him, and those that did were for the most part worthy magicians in their own right. But what power of latter days can compare to that which was Zeal the Magnificent? That might lived now only its two children, Janus and Schala."...that's pretty typical of the style of my battles.) Anyway, my real flaw is that I can't quite capture the CT feel; I intended to do so at the beginning, but could never quite. Thus, feeling that it would be even worse to have a bad attempt at it, I write in the way most natural to me. But in the end, I can assure you, near to all of the story is not historical, but rather meant as a sequel. The history is meant to provide a colorful backdrop, and as such is part of the setting rather than plot. I cling to CT as much as I can, but will sacrifice accuracy in a heartbeat to further the story from a literary perspective; this includes somewhat loose interpretation of the facts. For example one of my earliest ideas like that was to make Zeal seem far more magnificent than it is shown in the game; I describe it as a land with an army one hundred thousand strong, arrayed in gilded armor and appearing as legions of angels, with eyes burning as stars. In some ways the "eyes as stars" idea is borrowed from the Tolkien's descriptions of the Numenoreans, who seem to have many commanalities with Zeal. Thus the Tolkienish influence in my writing becomes apparent. In essence I am trying to lend a very legendary feeling aspect to as many of the things as possible, even as they would have been done in old myths and legends; I know of no other way of doing this than incorporating such a style. I'm not sure if that makes sense or if you understand what I mean; I have trouble putting my motivations and feelings on the matter into words. But sufficed to say, it is merely born from a desire to lend a certain northern saga or legend feel to certain matters which are not normally treated so; because, of course, the west and the east have a different view on what makes legend, myth, and heroes. I am attempting to reconcile my deepest understandings of those matters with the wonderful story contained in the Chrono games.

And I would like to debate the scientific validity of evolution in another thread, perhaps in general discussion, if you wish; I'll let you make the first comments and start the thread.  I would just personally like to see your thoughts on the matter.

When I get around to it (and feeling like making a long post) I'll do that.

[Green Dream]

GoA

All of your posts are long posts.

Well at least in relation to this one and most others.

[Baroquiel]

If you are knowledgable in the Hindu religion, please post on Crono's two blades, the Shiva Edge and Kali Blade.

Shiva and Kali are forms of God that represent Destruction. That is to say, the Destruction of Ignorance. Hindus hold that this world is created, preserved, destroyed, and reborn in cycle.

Hinuds hold that this world is an illusion, and that the purpose of "living" in this "world" is to refine oneself to be reunited with God. If a human is unable to refine themself at the end of a life, they liveanother life...humans live a number of lives, being reincarnated over and over again, until they have refined themselves to the point that they can reunite with God.

Ignorance is the Ignorance that this "world" is "real." Shiva and Kali, who is actually a small part of Shiva, shatter the delusion that this world is real, and destroy this "world" in cycle.

[Daniel Krispin]

Shiva and Kali are forms of God that represent Destruction. That is to say, the Destruction of Ignorance. Hindus hold that this world is created, preserved, destroyed, and reborn in cycle.

Hinuds hold that this world is an illusion, and that the purpose of "living" in this "world" is to refine oneself to be reunited with God. If a human is unable to refine themself at the end of a life, they liveanother life...humans live a number of lives, being reincarnated over and over again, until they have refined themselves to the point that they can reunite with God.

Ignorance is the Ignorance that this "world" is "real." Shiva and Kali, who is actually a small part of Shiva, shatter the delusion that this world is real, and destroy this "world" in cycle.

I was under the impression that Hinduism was polythesitic, and Shiva and Kali are seperate entities in that pantheon. Certainly I don't know much of anything regarding that religion, but I had thought that the idea of escaping from the cycle of life was Buddhist, not Hindu (though perhaps it is both; as I've said, I hardly know anything about eastern religions). I thought that Brahman was reality and truth, and sat behind the creation of the whole universe. Then again, all I know of Hinduism I read in a book of mythology (which for the most part has struck me as quite accurate, at least in the segments regarding Norse and Greek, which I know far better). Now, I cannot remember exactly, but I do think that Shiva and Kali are seperate beings. Damn, I'll look in the book. Norse I can do from memory for the most part, but this stuff escapes me. This isn't current Hindu, though, I think it's the old myth and Vedic age stuff, unless I'm mistaken. Let's see... this stuff is hard to sort out. Much more complicated than Norse. From what I can tell, Kali is a grave haunting avatar of Devi (and apparently Devi means Godess, and is the feminine of Deva...interesting. I didn't know that...). Devi is also known as Sati, Parvati, Lakshmi, Uma, and Durga, in different incarnations. According to this book, Parvati (and thus I would assume Kali to some extent) is the wife of Shiva. But I'm somewhat confused in this as well, because it also says that Rama, and incarnation of Vishnu, was married to Lakshimi, who is said to be Vishnu's heavenly wife (which seems to contradict that Parvati, being Shiva's wife, is the same being). I assume that these are varied myths from different ages and believed both at different times and by different sects that held certain gods as higher than others. I do know that in some sects Shiva is held as supreme over both Vishnu and Brahma, though others might place Brahma higher.... this stuff is beyond me. There are far too many names and avatars and incarnations for me to be able to sort it out. In addition, each god seems to have so many different personalities that I'm finding it near impossible to figure out who is who, and what they do.

[Radical_Dreamer]

I have heard Hinduism refered to as "polytheisim on steroids" and "essentially monotheistic." Since the first came from a loud mouth jack-ass who knew little of anything, I'll elaborate on the second.

All of the gods of Hinduism are just "avatars" of the one main god (Brahma, I believe) and he uses those different forms at different times. Although the teacher who gave that explanation wasn't the most reliable either, so take that with a grain of salt.

[Daniel Krispin]

Well, I think in the myths that I read (again, I think these are myths, thus very old beliefs that might not be current anymore), Brahman (seperate from Brahma in some way, though I'm not sure what) represents reality, from which all else comes, the gods included (thus not being gods in the western Christian sense of omnipotent, but the gods of polythesim which have power over certain aspects of the world). Thus in that way I suppose it could be monotheistic, with Brahman at the top. I think from Brahman which is reality comes Brahma, though from what I glanced at today there might be certain divisions in the religion, which attribute Brahman to the creative power of Vishnu, and thus placing Vishnu as the all-powerful god (in a similar way the Egyptians at Thebes placed Amun above and beyond all gods, and the source of all reality, even of the gods Ra and such. This was a regional belief.). Anyway, I do suppose that some might then consider Hinduism in some form monotheistic, in the same way that in Christianity God is seen as the source of everything, and yet has angels that he has created that are above humans (a side note: in Tolkien's works these angels, the Ainur, are very prevalent. Gandalf, Sauruman, Sauron, even the Balrog, are all in this class of beings. The mightiest, which are the Lords of the West, are called the Valar, but on occasion Tolkien calls them the gods. Now through this all Tolkien's world is fully monotheistic, with the creator Eru (or Illuvatar in Sindarin Elvish) being the source of all, and yet his angels are on occasion referred to as gods. And they, too, have specific lordship over certain parts of the world, even as polytheistic gods tend to have.) An interesting note, also. It seems to be common sense that religion began shamanistic and polytheistic and eventually evolved in places into monotheism. But I have heard it said that that might actually be false, and that in every religion there is some hint of an absolute creator, hearkening back to an older view, that became touched with polythesim. The reason for this, I have heard, is that people are naturally superstitious, and tend to believe polytheistic things, seeing spirits in emotion and such. Thus to keep order and peace in the land, the rulers and priests incorporated such worship into the older monotheism.
...
Though I suppose that this doesn't answer the question of Kali and Shiva, though...

[Radical_Dreamer]

The reason for this, I have heard, is that people are naturally superstitious, and tend to believe polytheistic things, seeing spirits in emotion and such. Thus to keep order and peace in the land, the rulers and priests incorporated such worship into the older monotheism.

It works both ways. Christianity, a new religion at the time, incorperated the  winter solstice festival from the older Roman religion (Sol...something, I don't exactly remember the other word) in order to create Christmas.

[Daniel Krispin]

Well, not that Christianity was particularily new. It could easily be considered a branch of Judaism. But that's a good point you bring up, and exactly what I mean. As Christianity moved into the northern countries, in an effort to peacefully convert the northern tribes (which it did, for the most part), it melded certain aspects into its own. Christmas, at least the traditional day of the 24th, was certainly a pagan holiday. But to appease the people that it was converting, the converters I suppose decided to keep the special day, and change the reason for the celebration. This sort of cross religion meld still occured later, with God being referred to in the Church as Jove.

[ZeaLitY]

Just noting that this has been finalized in the form of the Real Worlds Influence article, so I'm de-stickizing it. Say that outloud.

[Burning Zeppelin]

i believe that much of the chrono trigger history is muslim. the most obvious is medina. period. than comes lavos, which could represent the antichrist in islamic religion which is different to the christian belief (i am going to make a thread of this later) but wat is strange is that if the mystics are muslims, than why are they still such a low level in 1000 ad, when in real life they controlled most of the world by 1000? than lost it after being vain... also, trying to be far from racist is that in our belief the jewish people back in the old days a long time ago were very proud and "mocked" god, which turned to their demise. so yea, hopefully no one was offended. im a noob here so please tolerate me

[Hadriel]

That's in the Christian Bible, too; the Jewish people would always go "hay d00d gawd isnt looking lets worship false gods n shite lolz!"

And then they got pwn3d in their FACE.

[AuraTwilight]

And Y'know, Lavos is most probably a metaphor for Shiva than the Islamic Antichrist. I'll just fall back on that article with all the christian metaphors for Chrono Trigger, thank ya!

[Radical_Dreamer]

That's in the Christian Bible, too; the Jewish people would always go "hay d00d gawd isnt looking lets worship false gods n shite lolz!"

And then they got pwn3d in their FACE.

And yet, we're the oldest living culture on the Earth, and the cultures of our foes are all dead or dying. Funny how that works out.

[Hadriel]

That's in the Christian Bible, too; the Jewish people would always go "hay d00d gawd isnt looking lets worship false gods n shite lolz!"

And then they got pwn3d in their FACE.

And yet, we're the oldest living culture on the Earth, and the cultures of our foes are all dead or dying. Funny how that works out.

Quite.

Lavos isn't really a metaphor for anything; he isn't a destroyer, but a builder.  People just resent being manipulated.