Author Topic: Abortion: This Should Be Fun  (Read 11209 times)

MDenham

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Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« on: August 15, 2009, 07:04:36 am »
I'd go into a long, involved discussion of my ideological leanings, but I'd prefer not to disturb the entire forum population to the point where you all start trying to come after me with torches and pitchforks (or, worse, pitches and torchforks).

I will say that, in my opinion, the ideal government requires a person in charge with absolute power and the good sense to rarely, if ever, exercise it outside of small situations (but good luck finding someone, other than maybe me, who's not going to be like "O HAI I CAN HAS ABSOLUTE POWAR NOW, TIEMS FOR ABYOOSE", which is why this doesn't work in practice).

GenesisOne

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Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2009, 08:44:57 pm »
In other words, MDenham, an autocracy.

I don't say monarchy because you made no mention of royalty or bloodlines.

*      *      *      *      *      *

My idea of an ideal society includes:

1. private ownership
2. agriculture and teaching being the most important jobs
3. everybody works without excuse (minus the terminally ill, elderly, and crippled)
4. basic welfare and health care laws for anyone of all income levels
5. no income tax or death tax
6. a direct democracy (encourages community participation)
7. a free market economy (no capitalism)
8. opposing abortion
9. advocating the death penalty & passive euthanasia
10. separation of church & state

Of course, this is just a short list.  If anything on the list appears to contradict, do bring it up.

ZombieBucky

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Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2009, 09:02:15 pm »
why oppose abortion? in an ideal society there would be no need for it in theory. theories dont include the human element. what if the woman was raped and simply didnt want the child, or didnt have a job? what if she and her boyfriend/husband simply werent ready to take care of a child? what if the child were to live an empty life due to an illness?
what then, my good friend? what then?

GenesisOne

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Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2009, 11:41:58 pm »

Let me rephrase that point, then.

8. Opposes abortion (except in cases of rape)

Although rape is just one case, there are several other scenarios I know of that pose no fair stance on behalf of the unborn child (i.e. it cannot help itself):

1. Because it was the wrong gender.
2. Because it was conceived under a drunken stupor from the parents.
3. Because it had a physical deformation.
4. Because either/both parent(s) failed to use contraceptives.
5. Because either/both parent(s) decided to cop out on raising the child.
6. Because it was conceived out of wedlock.

Now you know why I think "Pro-Choice" is a loaded phrase.

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2009, 10:39:49 pm »
8. opposing abortion
9. advocating the death penalty & passive euthanasia

Quote from: GenesisOne
Now you know why I think "Pro-Choice" is a loaded phrase.

Now you're beginning to see why "pro-life" is a fraudulent descriptor.

IAmSerge

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Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2009, 10:58:52 pm »
Now you're beginning to see why "pro-life" is a fraudulent descriptor.

A rose by any other name, my friend.

Also
8. Opposes abortion (except in cases of rape)

should be
8. Opposes abortion (except in cases of rape and danger to the mothering figure)

GenesisOne

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Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2009, 11:44:16 pm »
Now you're beginning to see why "pro-life" is a fraudulent descriptor.

How is pro-life (standing for the right to live) a fraudulent descriptor?

Is it because I am for the death penalty also, thereby making it a contradiction in my beliefs?

I beg to differ, for it's perfectly clear why I can be against abortion and for the death penalty at the same time.

An abortion involves the termination of the innocent life of a person who has done nothing wrong whatsoever except perhaps be an inconvenience to the mother who wants to get rid of it.

A death penalty involves the termination of a criminal whose acts were consciously committed and proven to be a menace to society in order to keep the public safe from any future felonies he or she may commit.

See the difference?

ZombieBucky

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Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2009, 11:55:53 pm »
how does the child inconvenience the mother? you make it sound like the mother was a stupid blonde chick who got knocked up one night by a drunk man. thats not always the case.
is the child even alive in the first month of pregnancy? i dont think the heart has even properly formed yet. its just a mass of cells. and we kill our own cells every day. hell, they die on their own! and what if the child wouldnt last outside the womb? what if it were going to kill the mother? what if it were to be born into a world where he/she couldnt be acurately taken care of?
and who says a criminal did it on his own? what if he was forced to? what if he was insane or something?

my stance is that abortions are right under circumstances. like you shouldnt get an abortion every few weeks (haha like thatll ever happen) and it shouldnt be given to just everyone. therell be forms to fill out, like why you want/need an abortion. and the ties to religion? the religious people contradict their own books every day (who wants a shrimp cocktail?) so why listen to them? a person who is violently protesting abortion should be arrested. plain and simple. no excuses, no 'BUT ITS FOR TEH JESUS', none of that shit.

IAmSerge

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Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2009, 12:27:07 am »
how does the child inconvenience the mother? you make it sound like the mother was a stupid blonde chick who got knocked up one night by a drunk man. thats not always the case.
is the child even alive in the first month of pregnancy? i dont think the heart has even properly formed yet. its just a mass of cells. and we kill our own cells every day. hell, they die on their own! and what if the child wouldnt last outside the womb? what if it were going to kill the mother? what if it were to be born into a world where he/she couldnt be acurately taken care of?
and who says a criminal did it on his own? what if he was forced to? what if he was insane or something?

If you've ever seen Higurashi no Naku Koro ni (kai), also known as When They Cry in english, then one should believe that fate can be changed, and is not something to be taken lightly.

*shrug* just my 2 cents.

Truthordeal

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Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2009, 12:37:24 am »
Quote
and the ties to religion? the religious people contradict their own books every day (who wants a shrimp cocktail?) so why listen to them?

You seem to know well enough that generalizing all women who get abortions as bimbos is unfair, and yet you do the same to religious people.

You're not alone in disparaging religious people on this forum, but do try to not be such a hypocrite about it.

IAmSerge

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Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2009, 12:43:19 am »
Quote
and the ties to religion? the religious people contradict their own books every day (who wants a shrimp cocktail?) so why listen to them?

You seem to know well enough that generalizing all women who get abortions as bimbos is unfair, and yet you do the same to religious people.

You're not alone in disparaging religious people on this forum, but do try to not be such a hypocrite about it.


Shall we all stick to the subject at hand?  And Truth you may be right, however the way you say it makes you sound somewhat condemning.. Even if he sounded the same way as well, its good to end that kind of conversation quickly =D


GenesisOne

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Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2009, 12:45:12 am »
how does the child inconvenience the mother? you make it sound like the mother was a stupid blonde chick who got knocked up one night by a drunk man. thats not always the case.

Those are your words to accuse me of (none of which I implied, by the way), but do realize that abortion is mostly conducted on the basis of whether the unborn child is wanted or not. The fetus is no in way attempting to commit a felony against the mother, but is doing what all fetuses do, including what you did as a fetus, so how exactly is it fair that a fetus gets his or her life terminated at the whim of the mother?

This is why I stand for the death penalty.  If you want to debate that as well, start a new thread and I'll go for it from there.

Quote
is the child even alive in the first month of pregnancy? i dont think the heart has even properly formed yet. its just a mass of cells. and we kill our own cells every day. hell, they die on their own! and what if the child wouldnt last outside the womb? what if it were going to kill the mother? what if it were to be born into a world where he/she couldnt be acurately taken care of?

Your argument is based upon a layman's knowledge in the area of embryology.  The science of embryology tells us that human beings develop rapidly after fertilization of the egg. In fact, since the heart of the fetus begins to beat by 24 days, virtually all abortions (other than "emergency contraception") stop a beating heart. Also, since most abortion occur between 4-6 weeks, they also destroy a functioning brain. Even modern embryology textbooks agree that human life begins at conception. Since abortion ends human life, one must ask the question whether abortion is justifiable homicide or murder.

Quote
and who says a criminal did it on his own? what if he was forced to? what if he was insane or something?

The insanity defense, IMHO, is perhaps the best "Get out of Jail Free" Card a killer can ever get.  Hey, better a padded cell than a gas chamber, huh?

Quote
my stance is that abortions are right under circumstances. like you shouldnt get an abortion every few weeks (haha like thatll ever happen) and it shouldnt be given to just everyone. therell be forms to fill out, like why you want/need an abortion.

I thought the circumstances were rape, endangerment of the mother's life, or even an abnormality of the fetus. Actually, these hard cases (for lack of a better phrase) represent a mere 5% of all abortion cases.

Quote
and the ties to religion? the religious people contradict their own books every day (who wants a shrimp cocktail?) so why listen to them? a person who is violently protesting abortion should be arrested. plain and simple. no excuses, no 'BUT ITS FOR TEH JESUS', none of that shit.

I never once brought religion into this argument, and I was hoping we would steer clear of any religious arguments against abortion. I will gladly stick to the secular arguments. Heck, I'll do you one better with some legal arguments against abortion.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 12:50:23 am by GenesisOne »

Truthordeal

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Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2009, 12:54:14 am »
Quote
Shall we all stick to the subject at hand?  And Truth you may be right, however the way you say it makes you sound somewhat condemning.. Even if he sounded the same way as well, its good to end that kind of conversation quickly =D

I know Serge, I tried to limit my reply so that it wouldn't diverge into that.

I'd actually like a secular discussion on abortion, rather than the usual religious fair we have here.

IAmSerge

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Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2009, 12:56:02 am »
Quote
Shall we all stick to the subject at hand?  And Truth you may be right, however the way you say it makes you sound somewhat condemning.. Even if he sounded the same way as well, its good to end that kind of conversation quickly =D

I know Serge, I tried to limit my reply so that it wouldn't diverge into that.

I'd actually like a secular discussion on abortion, rather than the usual religious fair we have here.

I know you know, but perhaps by pointing such things out in such a way, I could... lighten the mood?

FaustWolf

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Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2009, 01:14:55 am »
It's fascinating how quickly Islam can get out of the abortion debate, for all the other difficulties conservative societies like to impose through that religion: life begins after the first trimester in the Islamic point of view, at least in certain schools of thought. However, I wonder just how "universal" the opinion regarding preservation of the mother's life is in conservative Islamic societies. Have they really managed a better track record than Christian societies in that regard, or is it about the same?

I wonder if there are other religious rationales that could support abortion rights. For example, is/was there any sect that views pregnancy as a devolution of creative power from a divine source onto women? If so, that might suggest that just as God has a say in whether an adult human lives or dies, then a woman has a say in whether her child lives or dies. Inasmuch as religion served partly as a behavioral adaptation that promotes reproduction and survival of the human species, this is probably rare, but I'm still curious how many religions are out there that might go against the grain and dig into the supernatural to rationalize certain reproductive choices.


As far as a secular rationale in favor of abortion rights, I would make the following observation:

Biophilosophically speaking, the child is an extension of the mother's body whilst in the womb. If she is said to exercise control over her own body, then she must be able to exercise control over the fetus that is just as much a physical part of her as her right arm. Despite Roe v. Wade's foundation on the legal question of privacy as a philosophical underpinning, it seems to me the biological question must take precedence; I can't think of any more convincing rationale to explain why a fetus should lack a right to life whereas the freshly born child immediately gains some legal status at the moment of separation from the mother.

However, what complicates the question of abortion from a biophilosophical standpoint is that the fetus' consciousness and perception are separate from the mother's, even though the fetus is physically supplied by the mother's body. For this reason, I find late-term abortions questionable on grounds of pain that the fetus may experience during the process. Certainly, if we are worried about animals experiencing pain, we should concern ourselves with pain experienced by human beings in all stages of their life cycle. Lord J had previously cornered me philosophically with the observation that the birth process subjects the fetus-becoming-child to huge physical pains, probably far more than the pain of abortion if anesthesia is administered properly.

There is also the issue of fetal viability. If we were to eschew the biophilosophical reasoning I offer above in favor of the fetus' mere ability to sustain itself outside of the mother's body (albeit with medical intervention) then yesterday's fetus is today's child due solely to advancements in life support, and legal rights may be partially dependent on technology.

All this is why I advocate the creation of children via "birth pods," otherwise known as artificial wombs. The Pro-Life movement might actually gain some philisophical ground by supporting such a scientific advancement; it eliminates the biological argument in favor of abortion rights mentioned above, though the privacy concerns of Roe v. Wade would still apply I suppose -- however, the privacy concerns would presumably apply to both parents equally in the case of birth pods, creating even more interesting legal dynamics.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 01:26:08 am by FaustWolf »