Author Topic: Abortion: This Should Be Fun  (Read 10547 times)

GenesisOne

  • Bounty Seeker
  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1215
  • "Time Travel? Possible? Don't make me laugh!"
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #75 on: August 19, 2009, 03:06:37 am »

Well, Radical_Dreamer, the heart, being one of the most vital organs in any person's or creature's body, circulates the blood throughout the body, which in turn provides important nutrients to other major organs in the body such as:

1. The brain (used to initiate any voluntary or reflex action we possess)
2. The central nervous system (used to carry out any voluntary or reflex action we possess)
3. The kidneys (used to clean the blood as it goes through our veins)

As soon as you stop a beating heart during an abortion:

1. The brain shuts down, in which
2. The central nervous system shuts down, in which
3. All other major functions in the body shut down.

Since it hasn't been proven that one can resuscitate a fetus in such a vegetative state, the fetus will naturally die of being unable to sustain its vital statistics.  This is especially true with a partial birth abortion, which I abhor to the greatest degree.

All abortions stop a beating heart (it's not just a slogan) and the vast majority kill a fetus that exhibits measurable brain waves.  So, yes I believe that ending someone's life in such a manner caries a lot of ethical weight in the abortion debate.

*      *      *      *      *      *

Truthordeal, sorry if the 30% statistic looks overblown.  It was supposed to say "30% of unwanted pregnancies"

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #76 on: August 19, 2009, 10:48:16 am »
Genesis, it is not true that all abortions stop a beating heart, as the heart only begins to beat after 22ish days, yes? Additionally, the brain doesn't start to produce brain waves until the 42ish day, so even if the heart is beating, stopping it would not always stop a brain. So would it be acceptable to you, then, for an abortion to occur before the 22ish day? Or perhaps even before the 42ish day?

Anywho, point being: not all abortions stop a heart, and not all stopped hearts shut down a brain.

Interestingly, it is estimated that somewhere around 50% of all pregnancies are spontaneously aborted before the woman is even aware that she is pregnant. Even when the spontaneous abortions are clinical rather than subclinical, they tend to occur before the 10th week, which is after both the heart and the brain are functioning. If one argues from nature, then it would seem that a form of abortion is quite common in the first trimester, regardless of brain or heart function. If the body can spontaneously abort quiet easily at that point without creating a moral dilemma for us, why should we not be able to mimic nature in that regard? To note, even current “manual” abortions occur primarily during this period, with abortions in the 2nd trimester being comparatively uncommon and abortions in the 3rd trimester being very rare.

GenesisOne

  • Bounty Seeker
  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1215
  • "Time Travel? Possible? Don't make me laugh!"
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #77 on: August 20, 2009, 01:49:53 am »

Thought, it is true that a heart starts to beat around 21-24 days after conception, and brain waves can be measured as early as 6 weeks after conception.  However, your question did cause me to pop some of my neurons in pondering:

Quote
If the body can spontaneously abort quiet easily at that point without creating a moral dilemma for us, why should we not be able to mimic nature in that regard?

If this is the case, then there's no need to go to a clinic to simulate a "natural abortion."  Such an abortion is accidental in nature, which in this case holds no moral weight.  Why, you ask? Well, since a natural abortion is beyond the control of either the pregnant woman, the fetus, or any knowledgeable third party, nothing could have really been done to prevent it.

If such a thing happened and nobody's the wiser about it, then it's water under the bridge.  There was nothing anyone could have done and that's the course of nature.  Besides, mimicking nature has always been the pursuit of science, but rarely does it follow our protocols.  There are always consequences to mimicking nature.  Even if the intentions are good, it can still backfire without you expecting it.

Radical_Dreamer

  • Entity
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2778
    • View Profile
    • The Chrono Compendium
Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #78 on: August 20, 2009, 04:26:56 am »
Ah, so it is an ethically irrelevant and dishonest statement that adds nothing to the debate. Thought has demonstrated it to be dishonest* and since the only ethically relevant function of the heart is keeping the brain functioning, then even if the assertion was true, mentioning the heart in this context is provides us with no relevant information.

Thank you both for clearing this up for me.

*You, Genesis, even said "virtually all abortions...stop a beating heart" earlier in the thread, thus you clearly know that saying all abortions stop a beating heart is not honest.

Truthordeal

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
  • Dunno what's supposed to go here. Oh now I see.
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Account
Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #79 on: August 20, 2009, 04:50:08 am »
Miscarriages are a type of "natural abortion," Thought, but I doubt you'll find anyone willing to denounce the woman who had a miscarriage as immoral for having it.

Uboa

  • Acacia Deva (+500)
  • *
  • Posts: 587
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #80 on: August 20, 2009, 11:22:42 am »
I was having internet trouble yesterday and was also pretty busy, so I'm picking up in non-sequiter fashion here:

 I was lucky enough to find Lake of Fire available to watch on Netflix under the "watch instantly" category.  I check sites like quicksilverscreen regularly, but I haven't seen it anywhere yet.  If I find it I'll post a link.

To the issue currently at hand, which is the personhood, or the life, of the fetus:  

The idea that a fetus constitutes a person as is makes me uneasy.  In fact, it leaves a strange and uncomforting taste in my mouth to regard personhood, to regard human life, as something so stripped-down.  A beating heart and detectable brainwaves -- is that what we are, in essence?  Vegetables?  Would we trade our current collective existence, with all of its sublime potentialities and its opportunities to understand the world, for one lobotomized and on a mass life-support system, and not be at a loss?  Of course not, right?  Because, human life is more than the sum of working body parts, more than the worldly necessities of sustaining a body and procreating.

What I find ironic is that this wholly worldly definition of human life is not only embraced by religion, but it is fought for tooth and nail, shouted on street corners, and otherwise... revered?  I'm not trying to bring religion to far into this, but I do find that to be more than a tad contradictory with what most religions otherwise hold, or at least should hold, in high regard given their choices of teachers.

Genesis, I lashed out at you in my last post and I apologize, but that was because I found (and still find) it hard to believe that there is such a sinister and terrible truth behind the right to an abortion.  I've heard some strange claims here and there.  For example, legal abortion is comparable to eugenics, the procedure does irreparable psychological harm to a woman, legal abortion gives men more incentive to neglect birth control and (implied) behave like pigs, and others.  When you mentioned the awful truth those conspiracy theories were the first things that came to my mind, and I pre-empted my want to understand what you were getting at with an assumption of what I believed you were getting at.  I usually don't let myself do that in debates.

Your focus is on the life of the fetus, so I've picked up there.  It's understood that an abortion will terminate the life of a fetus, and as much as I don't find that to be a reason for why abortion should not be kept safe and legal, believe me, I also do not think that act in itself is something to take lightly.  Abortions do take a significant emotional toll on the women who have them, and the emotional toll is largely due to the fact that they've given up on their physical and perceived future child.  There's no getting around it, we women are maternally wired to at least some extent.  We're not made to want to give up on our children, even if our children are mostly dreams to us.  But, we are figurative mothers to many other dreams, and we are beholden to more expectations today that simply having and raising children.  This is one of the most crucial, pivotal aspects of modern human life and why it is so rich and potent:  Our ability to connect with and explore this living dream world which we as a species have spent tens of thousands of years enriching, and to learn from and grow with it just as we learn to survive from the physical world, but also to grow with in in ways that transform us into more high-minded, imaginative, and illuminated selves.  

Should an unintentionally expectant mother even temporarily sacrifice her connection to those dreams, which make her life more definitively and meaningfully human than her body or her DNA, for something which does not yet share that capacity to dream in the slightest?  Should the father of the would-be child do the same if he had no intention of being a father?  Where is the fairness here?  Why is it fair that the progress of one or two human lives, real human lives, essentially be halted for something which is not, in any meaningful sense, yet a human life?  It's staggering to me that this should happen, and sickening to think that this is what is often perceived as the only right thing to do in the case of unplanned pregnancy.  It's demeaning!  It's demeaning that in this perception of "morality", our lives are reduced to such a base level that we are no more than beating hearts and brain waves, or at least we are worth no more than that.

I began this post trying to pick up on the conecept of fetal personhood, but whenever I begin that track in this context I always end up wandering over to the subject of human life itself.  But this is what the debate here is really about, right?  Human life, and what constitutes human life?  For me, I find it not only sad but dangerously misleading to want to call outright "human life" that which is so utterly lacking in the capacity to live as a human.  To call upon humans to all but prostrate themselves before this bizarre vision of life is more than just a little absurd, don't you agree?  Or is it really my ideas about what constitutes life that are misguided and dangerous?

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #81 on: August 20, 2009, 11:56:00 am »
Exactly! The concept of an abortion as a whole is not what even pro-lifers reject, else they would have to condemn miscarriages as well. It is specifically that they oppose human intervention in the matter.

Let me, for the sake of what I find to be an interesting train of thought, propose an overly loose definition of a disease. One might define a disease as a biological state that is not the norm and which the individual does not desire.

Naturally, a person's body will attempt to fight off the disease and return the body to homeostasis.

Unnaturally, medicine might attempt to mimic the natural occurrence and fight off the disease with external means.

If this disease is, say, cancer, the natural responses tend to be incredibly inefficient and so unnatural responses are needed.

But under this overly loose definition of a disease we might also classify an unwanted pregnancy as a disease. Being pregnant is not the normal biological state of most women in the modern era, and in some cases it is undesired. Like with cancer, the natural mechanisms to fight off disease are not here effective and thus we might suppose that unnatural means are necessary.

Assuming that this very strange definition of a disease was accepted by you, would one still have an objection to unnatural medical intervention that attempts to do what the natural functions would ideally be doing?

Of course the objection still might be that, though perceived as a disease, the woman to a degree chose to engage in behavior that, even with proper precautions, still has a much higher risk of causing pregnancy than most behaviors have of causing cancer. Action and intent thus remove our medical obligation of treating the "disease."

And so allow me to switch the disease from a fetus or cancer to that of an STD. Like the others, it is not a normal biological state for an individual and it is (usually) undesirable. But one contracts an STD like one "contracts" a pregnancy. We find many of the same behaviors, and failures of many of the same precautions, lead to this state. The natural functions of the body are not always (indeed, not usually) able to fight of these diseases and so we find unnatural medical intervention to be called for.

I object to bans on abortion just as I would object to bans on treatment for STDs. While I might not approve of the behavior that leads to the desire for medical intervention, I cannot in good consciousness withhold medical help after the fact. I cannot claim that a man suffering from STDs should be denied an unnatural medical solution to his problem merely because he engaged in behavior that specifically caused his affliction in the first place. Neither can I claim that a woman suffering from pregnancy be denied an unnatural medical solution to her problem merely because she engaged in behavior that specifically caused her affliction in the first place. To withhold help seems downright un-Christian, as it were.

And since for humors sake I have here introduced an aspect of religion, allow me a few sentences more on this topic before once more putting it aside. The Christian might object to abortion based on the perspective that it is wrong. Likewise a Christian might object to robbery based on the perspective that it is wrong, and yet Christian teachings include the belief that if someone takes something from you by force that you should follow it up by giving them something more willingly. Thus it would seem from a Christian’s perspective, even though the Christian might believe that abortion is wrong, it is the moral obligation of the Christian to aid those engaged in abortion. But now enough of that.

Setting aside this absurd definition of a disease, one will most likely balk at the supposition that a pregnancy can be considered a disease. A fetus is human, or at least comprised of human genetic information, an STD is not! Ah, but cancer is comprised of human genetic information as well. A fetus has a heart! Ah, but cancers may well have heart cells in them, and these cells might even be "beating." A fetus, if left not externally treated like a disease, will develop into a child! Not necessarily, the internal processes of the body might well address the issue. The woman engaged in behavior that made her pregnant! As did the man with the STDs.

This is not to say that abortion is "good" and that it would be in an ideal society. Far from it, abortion would not be in an ideal society simply for want of a need or desire for it. However, we are not in an ideal society and so having it as an option is better than not having it at all.

What I find ironic is that this wholly worldly definition of human life is not only embraced by religion, but it is fought for tooth and nail, shouted on street corners, and otherwise... revered.  I'm not trying to bring religion to far into this, but I do find that to be more than a tad contradictory with what most religions otherwise hold, or at least should hold, in high regard given their choices of teachers.

You've touched on the concept of ensoulment. When does this guise of biological matter become endowed with that which is eternal? If we are dualists and say that the body is merely a device and we are the controllers in it, then the mind becomes a tantalizing place to define as the cockpit. If the cockpit is functioning, then the soul might well be there. If we are not dualists, we might well claim that the soul develops alongside the physical form. Or we might say that it occurs at birth, other at some other largely arbitrary date.

... for something which does not yet share that capacity to dream in the slightest?

An unimportant curiosity, as this wasn't the sort of dreaming you were referencing, but does anyone know when REM sleep begins?

For me, I find it not only sad but dangerously misleading to want to call outright "human life" that which is so utterly lacking in the capacity to live as a human.

The problem there is that there is little difference between a child that is a day old and a child that is a month till due. Indeed, there is even less difference between a child born a month premature and a child that is two months till due. If a child is outside of the mother and still alive, as a society we say that it is wrong to kill it. So it would seem that there is a line somewhere that on one side of which there is not a human and on the other side there is. Where that line is is difficult to determine. That is one of the very interesting things about the A Defense of Abortion essay Faust was talking about earlier; it takes it as a premise that a fetus is human and has a right to life but then goes on to argue what that doesn't preclude the possibility of an abortion.

Truthordeal

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
  • Dunno what's supposed to go here. Oh now I see.
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Account
Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #82 on: August 20, 2009, 02:07:11 pm »
Contrary to what Lord J will have you believe, neither side of the abortion debate is doing what they do because of some sinister ulterior motive. They both fight because they feel a moral imperative to fight; pro-choicers feel the imperative of protecting women's rights, while pro-lifers feel the imperative of protecting the rights of a potential human being. There are some people on both sides who are misguided, and make their "team" want to facepalm every time they so much as open their mouths(the Joe Biden of their team, if you will) but, and this is me being optimistic, those people are few and far between.

Zephira

  • Bounty Hunter
  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1541
  • You're not afraid of the dark, are you?...Are you?
    • View Profile
    • My deviantArt page
Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #83 on: August 20, 2009, 02:34:43 pm »
Abortion again? I thought we covered this in Fuck Sexism and, before that, Frustration.

I still love Serge's "You got raped and you're pregnant? Haha, too bad! Your punishment for not being able to defend yourself!" and "You took all precautions yet still got accidentally pregnant? Haha, too bad! Your punishment for random chance and being stupid even though you're not!" arguments.

It's a situational thing. Abortion shouldn't be banned completely as most pro-lifers want it to be, but a woman/man/family/whatever should have a good reason for the abortion. Don't abort because you don't want a boy or because he doesn't have blue eyes, abort because you can't afford to give the child a good life, or for medical reasons, or if you're underage or if you were raped.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10795
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #84 on: August 20, 2009, 03:39:10 pm »
Contrary to what Lord J will have you believe, neither side of the abortion debate is doing what they do because of some sinister ulterior motive. They both fight because they feel a moral imperative to fight; pro-choicers feel the imperative of protecting women's rights, while pro-lifers feel the imperative of protecting the rights of a potential human being. There are some people on both sides who are misguided, and make their "team" want to facepalm every time they so much as open their mouths(the Joe Biden of their team, if you will) but, and this is me being optimistic, those people are few and far between.

And yet, one side is right.

(PROTIP: It's the side whose worldview isn't founded on myth.)

Truthordeal

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
  • Dunno what's supposed to go here. Oh now I see.
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Account
Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #85 on: August 20, 2009, 04:01:46 pm »
Quote from: Zephira
It's a situational thing. Abortion shouldn't be banned completely as most pro-lifers want it to be, but a woman/man/family/whatever should have a good reason for the abortion. Don't abort because you don't want a boy or because he doesn't have blue eyes, abort because you can't afford to give the child a good life, or for medical reasons, or if you're underage or if you were raped.

I could not have said it better myself, Zephira.

Quote from: Zeality
And yet, one side is right.

I don't believe either side is completely right, especially the side that says that killing a baby as it's coming out of the womb without any complications is A-OK.

ZombieBucky

  • Springtime of Youth
  • Squaretable Knight (+400)
  • *
  • Posts: 409
  • <insert witty phrase to match above avatar>
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #86 on: August 20, 2009, 04:56:12 pm »
whose rights are more important? a being that could very well die before being born or grow up to be a criminal? or a being that is already well defined in this life and can do something other than kick and squirm and poo?
i gotta say im leaning towards the woman in that case.
zephiras words are quite true, perhaps the truest ive ever seen.

Truthordeal

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
  • Dunno what's supposed to go here. Oh now I see.
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Account
Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #87 on: August 20, 2009, 05:53:38 pm »
Quote from: ZombieBucky
whose rights are more important? a being that could very well die before being born or grow up to be a criminal? or a being that is already well defined in this life and can do something other than kick and squirm and poo?

Bucky, I'm a bit confused. Are you making the argument that a grown woman has more of a right to live than a baby? Or that since baby's have a potential to become criminals they have no rights?

If its the latter, then does that mean that women who are criminals shouldn't be allowed to have an abortion, even if it threatens their life?

ZombieBucky

  • Springtime of Youth
  • Squaretable Knight (+400)
  • *
  • Posts: 409
  • <insert witty phrase to match above avatar>
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #88 on: August 20, 2009, 05:57:43 pm »
what im saying is that the rights of a woman should be more than the rights of an unborn child, who may or may not even make it outside the womb for natural causes. theyre potential life. should we value the potential over the actual? thats the question.

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion: This Should Be Fun
« Reply #89 on: August 20, 2009, 06:22:31 pm »
Well not many people would say that even if the mother's life is at risk she still shouldn't have an abortion. If we are directly comparing rights to life, most people will side on the mother's side. But the majority of the debate comes when the mother's life is not in danger. That is what A Defense of Abortion that faust linked to primarily discussed. It is right to life v right to control one's body, a different issue.