Author Topic: Amalgamated Pocket Dimension Resolution Thread  (Read 2048 times)

ZeaLitY

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Amalgamated Pocket Dimension Resolution Thread
« on: August 07, 2009, 01:18:43 am »
Let's just start from the top and diagram everything:

Phenomena

This assumes that when you fight Lavos in various eras, you really are fighting the Lavos from that era (600 A.D. Black Omen leads to Lavos at his life in 600 A.D., for example).

  • A. Lavos is surrounded by a blue aura.
  • B. Defeat Lavos's shell in 1999 A.D., and his shell is missing at the end of Black Omen confrontations in earlier eras. He's also the same strength each time you fight him.
  • C. The final form of Lavos uses effects from different eras in combat with the title "Time warp", displaying knowledge of 2300 A.D.
  • D. Lavos emulates the fighting form of the Guardian defense machine, even though the party encountered it in the future.
  • E. If you confront Lavos at the Black Omen in any time period and lose, the 1999 A.D. destruction plays.
  • F. Lavos's shell is present at the Ocean Palace Incident even if you've already destroyed it.
  • G. Lavos survives defeat in Chrono Trigger and merges with Schala at the Darkness Beyond Time.

Assuming that Lavos exists as a regular creature dwelling within the earth, we continue:

Gameplay Tags

  • A. The aura is for dramatic effect. It's also used to depict the Darkness Beyond Time in Chrono Trigger DS, which we know looks different in Chrono Cross.
  • B. The confrontation with Lavos uses a single location in Chrono Trigger's memory, and Lavos's vulnerability was programmed without thought to plot repercussions.
  • C, D Programmed by battle programmers for dramatic effect without thought to plot.
  • E. Programmed as the standard game over without thought to this plot implication.
  • F. Developer oversight; it's just the way it's programmed. This is also canonically the first time you can face Lavos in its personal history.

Plot Tags

  • B. Queen Zeal is summoning Lavos as you left him through time in an earlier era to fight the party.
  • C. Lavos read the party's memories to create the 2300 A.D. attack, drawing on the despair of seeing a "Dreamless" world.
  • D. The Guardian was built before 1999 A.D., allowing Lavos to reconnoiter its fighting form and use it on the party, perhaps choosing to do so because it read that the party encountered the machine before on their travels.
  • E. The game is implying that as with Magus's summon in 600 A.D., Lavos returned underground and properly erupted in 1999 A.D.
  • G. This sort of thing happens in fiction all the time; an enemy fakes their death and goes to a back-up plan. Lavos used his remaining power to enter the Darkness Beyond Time, perhaps aware from the Ocean Palace Incident that Schala would be there.

This just leaves G as a real problem, but Chrono Cross never specified what caused the Fall of Guardia either, so it's hard to peg a lack of information as a plot hole (which by definition is an inconsistency).

Pocket Dimension Theory

Lavos created a bubble dimension at the center of the earth after landing, existing on a scale of Time Error. Effects include:

  • A. The Pocket Dimension has a blue aura.
  • B. Battles take place in his Pocket Dimension; defeat the shell once, and it's still defeated.
  • C. Lavos uses Time Warp to establish contact or presence in real eras, including 2300 A.D., from the Pocket Dimension.
  • D. Lavos drew upon the Guardian's battle with the party in the future to emulate it.
  • G. The future of Lavos within the Pocket Dimension after his eruption is negated to the DBT upon his defeat, but he's able to manipulate anti-annihilation energy and prevent from being nullified, afterwards binding with Schala.

There is no specific prescription for points E. and F.

Pocket Dimension Problems

  • P-A. Lavos cannot be defeated at any other time than 1999 A.D., because with Time Traveler's Immunity, he would still appear at that date and unleash hell upon the world. This is problematic since defeating the Black Omen is possibly the intended canonical route (the party could still destroy it, leave, and go to 1999 A.D., of course).
  • P-B. Lavos has left and dissolved the Pocket Dimension after 1999 A.D. so he can spawn at Death Peak, meaning the party could never access it. However, if the party beats his shell in 1999 A.D. and returns to 12,000 B.C., Lavos doesn't have a shell, suggesting Lavos went back inside the Pocket Dimension and travels back to whatever era Queen Zeal summons him from.
  • P-C. But Lavos couldn't have gone back inside, or the party would have to defeat two Lavoses: the Time Bastard Lavos that appears in 1999 A.D. to destroy the world, and the real Lavos, still living in the Pocket Dimension. (Unless, per another theory, the party faces Lavos only at 1999 A.D. because Queen Zeal warps them there.)

Revised Pocket Dimension Theory

Lavos never exited his PD once he created it (this explains how you can actually fight the same Lavos in 1999 A.D. and 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen). Exiting a PD doesn't grant Time Traveler's Immunity (this explains why killing Lavos in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen prevents the Destruction Rain from still appearing in 1999 A.D.). Lavos created his PD during the Ocean Palace disaster (this explains why killing Lavos in 12000 B.C. after the Black Omen doesn't prevent the Fall of Zeal, which happened before the PD's creation)

Revised Effects:

  • A. The Pocket Dimension has a blue aura.
  • B. Battles take place in his Pocket Dimension; defeat the shell once, and it's still defeated.
  • C. Lavos uses Time Warp to establish contact or presence in real eras, including 2300 A.D., from the Pocket Dimension.
  • D. Lavos drew upon the Guardian's battle with the party in the future to emulate it.
  • E. You have failed to negate Lavos's eruption, which still happens even though he's been summoned back.
  • F. Lavos didn't create the Pocket Dimension yet.

Problems:

  • E. Lavos would have to erupt twice, now that Queen Zeal has summoned him back from the future. All in a day's work for Lavos...if he chose not to erupt again, his 1999 A.D. eruption would not be protected by TTI, and the future would be fine.
  • G. Without TTI, it's as if Lavos was never there in the first place, so there'd be no Lavos future to go back to the DBT.
  • In general, the revised theory relies on three conditions; the bit about him not exiting is troublesome since it's likely that Lavos is part of Death Peak and spawning there, and the other two conditions don't have any other evidence. That he made the PD only after 12,000 B.C. is inventing an event to make theory conform, and that the PD doesn't grant TTI is making an exception for another fan theory. It's troublesome to take this situation and say that Time Error applies for the Guardian / 2300 A.D. fix, but that TTI/TB don't.

Other PD Criticism

Quote from: ZeaLitY
But here's the issue. If Lavos pulled that stuff off, he could conceivably see the entire future from his Pocket Dimension, and collect the most advanced DNA imaginable. He'd never have to worry about a threat; he'd be completely undetectable within his safe little dimension. So Lavos could effectively see eternity for a planet. If we agree that Lavos is not threatened in this concealed state, then he has no reason to emerge to destroy humanity. In fact, he'd get more out of letting humanity go on, as he could harness its advanced technology and evolution. But let's assume that Lavos still has to come out at 1999 A.D. Without Time Traveler's Immunity, Lavos would instantly lose memory of everything past 1999 A.D. upon destroying the world. The effects of bringing about a ruined future would manifest right back to Lavos's early history without the veil of TTI, and he could never see the Guardian.

~

Another theory to take care of the Black Omen issue:

Quote from: FouCapitan
I have a better explanation than the PD theory though.  I'll call it the Omen Gate theory.  When Zeal taps into the power of Lavos, calling upon his awakening, we see a blue circle expand beneath the Omen.  This is not Lavos awakening, this is a gate opening.  Upon her defeat a gate opens up beneath the Omen and transports the party to 1999 AD and Lavos' awakening.

The disintegration of the Omen is the physical transformation of the Omen into a gate, to fulfill Zeal's wishes of Lavos facing our heroes and destroying them.  Because the Omen is sacrificed to make the gate, it no longer exists in 1999 or any time after it makes the transformation into a gate to 1999.

So in a nutshell, you don't go into Lavos' theorized pocket dimension, the Omen becomes a gate to Lavos' emergence.

This takes care of Problem P-A up there, but we're still left with my general criticism and the problem of dissolving the Pocket Dimension. If the assumption is made that Lavos never leaves the Pocket Dimension (which isn't in tandem with the Death Peak idea), and also hold FouCapitan's theory about going to 1999 A.D. each time to fight to be true (which also takes care of the 1999 A.D. ending scene), then the original Pocket Dimension theory can still "fly". (FouCapitan's theory isn't necessarily tied to the Pocket Dimension theory anyway; it was made to solve phenomenon B up there, and also helps the Armageddon Branch theory, if we end up having to use that.) Cous recently made a similar theory in result; that Lavos sends you to 1999 A.D. to face his most powerful version whenever you arrive to confront him, and so you'd always face the version without a shell.

~

In conclusion, there's a specter hanging over all of this about when Lavos is actually defeated (1999 A.D. or 12,000 B.C.). Without the Pocket Dimension theory, I'd wager that it doesn't really matter, since it produces the same consistent result in the series. Claiming it doesn't matter also allows us to make the Armageddon-Branch theory on the idea of defeat in 1999 A.D. for the time being (at least until Kato or someone says that Lavos was defeated in a specific year).

So...

What's the verdict on the Pocket Dimension theory, given the above?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 01:20:38 am by ZeaLitY »

Thought

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Re: Amalgamated Pocket Dimension Resolution Thread
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2009, 12:45:40 pm »
My verdict would be that the Pocket Dimension is unnecessary and thus should be discarded.

Most of what is to follow has been stated before, but these are my reasonings for such a conclusion.

Regarding Phenomena G, that Lavos survives defeat and goes into the DBT, wouldn't it be the other way around?

Let us say that Crono & co defeat Lavos in 12,000 BC. The Lavos that they had encountered in 600AD with Magus is no longer there: time has been changed and that Lavos is discarded to the DBT, along with the rest of the timeline. That Lavos is then the one that merges with Schala, while in the real world there's a Lavos corpse rotting somewhere. If Lavos is still aware, then it is aware that it is outside of time and could deduce that it has been defeated "in the past."

Regarding Phenomena F, that Lavos' shell is present in the Ocean Palace Incident even if you defeated it previously, that seems to be specifically an attempt to break the game. Generally, it requires a New Game + to do, correct? Just as the endings that are generally only accessible through NG+ are of dubious canonicity, it would seem actions that are generally only possible through NG+ are likewise so.

Regarding Phenomena D, that Lavos imitates the Guardian Robot which is "in the future" from all perspectives except the battle in 1999 AD, reason demands that we must conclude that Lavos is drawing from the memories of Crono & Co. If Lavos is instead drawing directly from history, then we have the curiosity that Lavos happens to choose only those creatures that Crono & Co fought, and only at the times in which they fought them. Between 65,000,000 and 2300 there have never been any better creatures for Lavos to emulate than those that Crono & Co just happened to face.

Regarding Phenomena B, specifically that Lavos is at the same power regardless of era in which one fights him, too much importance may be placed on that. Generally, once creatures reach adulthood, their strength and size does not increase dramatically. A black bear at the age of 7 will be about as fearsome as a black bear at the age of 10. While there will be changes, those are comparatively small when put next to the changes between child and adult. Lavos has been feeding on the planet since 65,000,000 BC and "growing stronger," but it is entirely possible that all such energies when into reproduction and assimilation, not towards increasing its raw strength. Furthermore, the earliest we can fight Lavos is 12,000 BC. That gives him 64,988,000 years to develop and grow strong, whatever that means. In contrast, the 13,999 year difference between the earliest and the latest one can face Lavos seems negligible.

Which only leaves us with Phenomena A, 1/2 of B, C, and E.

Regarding A, I actually have a question: assuming this is the blue aura while fighting the outer shell, does the aura not appear in any time period? For example, if one takes the bucket (or the telepod gate in NG+) to 1999 and fights Lavos, does the aura still appear?

If the aura does not appear when fighting Lavos in one Time Period, then I think we could reasonably say that the aura is a gate effect transporting the team to the time period in which the aura is not present (and the period in which it isn't present, it is missing because it is unneeded). This would seemingly specifically counter the PD theory, as the aura should always be present.

If, however, the aura is present in all time periods, then I believe it would be reasonable to suppose it is a random battle effect with no meaning or that it is a Pocket Dimension.

I think I recall that there is a way to battle Lavos without this aura, but I have no save game with which to check, nor am I in a location where I can check.

Regarding Phenomena C, like with the bosses I think we must conclude that the focus is on Crono & Co's experience. Again, Lavos does not warp to any period but only those to which the party has been to. While one might say that Lavos also warps to points of significance in its own life or the life of the planet, the fact that Leene Square is included seems to refute that. It is important to Crono and Marle, but I see no reason that it is important to Lavos or the Planet.

Regarding Phenomena E, this would seem to support the supposition that Lavos is defeated in 1999 AD and facing him at any other period brings one here.

Regarding Phenomena B, the first half, it would likewise seem to support the conclusion that one faces Lavos in 1999.

As an aside, if TB is ever debunked, then Lavos would have to be defeated in 1999 (or 1000) so as to not change the course of 600 AD.

Chrono'99

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Re: Amalgamated Pocket Dimension Resolution Thread
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2009, 10:43:15 pm »
Damn, I'd like to say something interesting but it's been a while and there's so much to consider... I might lean towards discarding the Pocket Dimension theory too, I guess. Mmh...

Regarding A, I actually have a question: assuming this is the blue aura while fighting the outer shell, does the aura not appear in any time period? For example, if one takes the bucket (or the telepod gate in NG+) to 1999 and fights Lavos, does the aura still appear?

If the aura does not appear when fighting Lavos in one Time Period, then I think we could reasonably say that the aura is a gate effect transporting the team to the time period in which the aura is not present (and the period in which it isn't present, it is missing because it is unneeded). This would seemingly specifically counter the PD theory, as the aura should always be present.

If, however, the aura is present in all time periods, then I believe it would be reasonable to suppose it is a random battle effect with no meaning or that it is a Pocket Dimension.

I think I recall that there is a way to battle Lavos without this aura, but I have no save game with which to check, nor am I in a location where I can check.

Apart from overworld scenes, Lavos always appears in the blue aura, except in 1999 after the defeat of his first form. Right after it's defeated in 1999, you see his shell on solid ground. I'm not sure what happens if you defeat his first form, return to the End of Time, and rewatch the 1999 AD eruption again. The eruption has a shot of him in his blue aura so it might be interesting to check if this shot is the same if you've already defeated his first form.

In any case, some sort of "Pocket" space does exist, even if it's not a Time Error-based "Pocket Dimension". The Ocean Palace disaster explicitly shows the characters teleporting/being teleported in and out of the blue aura zone. Besides, Lavos is just too large to fit in the Mammon Machine's hall and in Magus's summoning room, unless he resided in his own patch of space when he appeared there.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 10:49:24 pm by Chrono'99 »

KillaGouge

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Re: Amalgamated Pocket Dimension Resolution Thread
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2009, 01:40:27 am »
As far as him being "too large" to fit in either place, if he does reside in a pocket of space time, then there has to be a large gravitational anomaly associated with it.  With large pockets of gravity, you get gravitational lensing distorting your view of whatever is behind it, so we might not really knowing how large he really is until he emerges in 1999ad

ZeaLitY

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Re: Amalgamated Pocket Dimension Resolution Thread
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2009, 10:32:36 am »
Thought, you can see Lavos under some condition in 1999 A.D.'s brown crust map, I think, but you can never battle him there.

As far as him being "too large" to fit in either place, if he does reside in a pocket of space time, then there has to be a large gravitational anomaly associated with it.  With large pockets of gravity, you get gravitational lensing distorting your view of whatever is behind it, so we might not really knowing how large he really is until he emerges in 1999ad

That would jive with this reaction in Magus's Lair to the summoning:

Quote
Robo: It's an enormous gravity
   well!

So, let's see what we can do with this.

Quote
B. Defeat Lavos's shell in 1999 A.D., and his shell is missing at the end of Black Omen confrontations in earlier eras. He's also the same strength each time you fight him.
E. If you confront Lavos at the Black Omen in any time period and lose, the 1999 A.D. destruction plays.

Omen-Gate Theory

FouCapitan

When Zeal taps into the power of Lavos, calling upon his awakening, we see a blue circle expand beneath the Omen. This is not Lavos awakening; this is a gate opening. Upon her defeat a gate opens up beneath the Omen and transports the party to 1999 AD and Lavos's awakening. The disintegration of the Omen is the physical transformation of the Omen into a gate, to fulfill Zeal's wishes of Lavos facing our heroes and destroying them. Because the Omen is sacrificed to make the gate, it no longer exists in 1999 or any time after it makes the transformation into a gate to 1999 A.D. The party can only fight Lavos in this time period.

~

Thought: Generally, once creatures reach adulthood, their strength and size does not increase dramatically. A black bear at the age of 7 will be about as fearsome as a black bear at the age of 10. While there will be changes, those are comparatively small when put next to the changes between child and adult. Lavos has been feeding on the planet since 65,000,000 BC and "growing stronger," but it is entirely possible that all such energies when into reproduction and assimilation, not towards increasing its raw strength. Furthermore, the earliest we can fight Lavos is 12,000 BC. That gives him 64,988,000 years to develop and grow strong, whatever that means. In contrast, the 13,999 year difference between the earliest and the latest one can face Lavos seems negligible.

Quote
C. The final form of Lavos uses effects from different eras in combat with the title "Time warp", displaying knowledge of 2300 A.D.
D. Lavos emulates the fighting form of the Guardian defense machine, even though the party encountered it in the future.

Lavos is reading the memories of the crew and taking the form of enemies they've encountered. Lavos read the party's memories to create the 2300 A.D. attack, drawing on the despair of seeing a "Dreamless" world. The Guardian was built before 1999 A.D., allowing Lavos to reconnoiter its fighting form.

Quote
F. Lavos's shell is present at the Ocean Palace Incident even if you've already destroyed it.

No problem. You can only fight Lavos in 1999 A.D.

Quote
G. Lavos survives defeat in Chrono Trigger and merges with Schala at the Darkness Beyond Time.

This sort of thing happens in fiction all the time; an enemy fakes their death and goes to a back-up plan. Lavos used his remaining power to enter the Darkness Beyond Time, perhaps aware from the Ocean Palace Incident that Schala would be there.

Quote
A. Lavos is surrounded by a blue aura. The party warps in and out of blue space to fight him at the Ocean Palace. The party is later "thrown into the Mammon Machine", which seems complete.

Lavos and the Mammon Machine (through Lavos energy) are capable of generating pocket space, which also produces a large gravity distortion (as reported by Robo when Magus summoned Lavos at his lair).

~

We have clear solutions for all the phenomena now, but, you can see that I wrote this with the position that Lavos is fought and defeated in 1999 A.D. It'd seem attractive to adopt this because:

  • It jives with Armageddon-Branch theory.
  • It jives with the simplest solutions to these phenomena in Chrono Trigger.
  • You can exit Lavos's core after the 12,000 B.C. Black Omen and talk to Gaspar, who has a new line, justifying that from a completionist perspective, you don't necessarily have to defeat Lavos then.

So, two questions:

  • Are we comfortable with declaring 1999 A.D. the Compendium position on Lavos's defeat, and
  • Are we comfortable with these solutions to the phenomena and retiring the Pocket Dimension theory?

Thought

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Re: Amalgamated Pocket Dimension Resolution Thread
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2009, 03:38:11 pm »
For me and mine, Z, once again my vote is in the affirmative.

~~~

That Lavos is ever seen on actual dirt in 1999 makes me think that indeed the aura is a "dimensional vortex"/gate taking an individual to 1999 to fight him. This might not be a full-fledged gate, however, as if it were then there would be two Crono&Co's in 1999 fighting Lavos, at least (one from the OP incident, one from the final battle). Perhaps it merely breaks down the temporal distinctions between two points and times. This would seemingly be in line with the similar effect we see when fighting the Lavos core. Not "time travel" but "time transposition," as it were.

Besides, Lavos is just too large to fit in the Mammon Machine's hall and in Magus's summoning room, unless he resided in his own patch of space when he appeared there.

Ooo, very good point.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Amalgamated Pocket Dimension Resolution Thread
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2009, 09:23:49 pm »
The deed is done. I left the Pocket Dimension page in existence under a deprecated category on the Principles of Timelines and Dimensions page linking to theories. Keystone PD-1 became a more benign "Lavos Space" and the Chronology was also updated.