Author Topic: Zealian language  (Read 2845 times)

SilentMartyr

  • Magical Dreamer (+1250)
  • *
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
    • http://www.chronotrigger.info
Zealian language
« on: May 12, 2005, 02:43:21 pm »
This topic has come up over at CTNP and it has become close to a plot hole. How were the Zealians able to understand the group, and vice versa? Lucca and Robo could translate the language, but it is doubtful that they could speak and understand it. I am out of ideas, thought you guys can shed some new light onto the subject.

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Zealian language
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2005, 03:11:26 pm »
Because its a video game, and everyone speaks the same language.  Simple answer.

SilentMartyr

  • Magical Dreamer (+1250)
  • *
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
    • http://www.chronotrigger.info
Zealian language
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2005, 03:17:19 pm »
But they don't, Lucca or Robo translated the Masamune. They both say it is an archaic language.

Shadow_Dragon

  • Chronopolitan (+300)
  • *
  • Posts: 329
    • View Profile
Zealian language
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2005, 05:01:51 pm »
THe Entity altered time and space to warp the sound waves emmited by the Zealians so that it would sound like English (or w/e Crono and co. spoke), and vice-versa for English to Zealian

Seriously, Masa and Mune were scholars, weren't they? Maybe they knew of a language from even before Zeal, which they used on the Masamune (or maybe Melchoir knew of it and wrote it), and the language of Zeal was in fact the same language that Crono and co. spoke

Daniel Krispin

  • Guest
Zealian language
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2005, 06:34:54 pm »
People! Where does this 'Zealian' come from. The common ending form for the word zeal in this instance is 'Zealot'. And to avoid it, one may simply say (as I do), (something) of Zeal, ie. People of Zeal, Language of Zeal.
Now that that rant is done, I'll say that it was me over at the CTNP that caused this subject in some measure to go out of hand - I've been adamantly maintaining that for a book, most especially fantasy, to effect realism, it must include realistic linguistics, ie. a seperate Zeal language. I suggested that Lucca may well be a scholar of the tonuge, and thus translator. For brevity sake, it may be through her ears that those segments are told. The counter-argument was that it would be odd for the language to have survived, but not any record of the land.
I've thought of a way to refute that, however.
It is not un-plausable that the language in some form could have lived on, whilst the stories of the land did not. It is likely that in that era the language of Zeal was the common trade language of the world: it was absolutely widespread. Thus after the Fall, many successive languages were based upon its roots. After hundreds and thousands of years, it changed into what the 'current' languages are (not unlike our own world languages have roots in basic Semitic or Indo-European tongues, a thing used to trace people migrations.) Moreover, writings may well have been existant from the period directly following the Fall. These may or may not have included a chronicle of the event (after all, it is not absolutely certain that Crono and his companions knew nothing of Zeal. Perhaps they did, and any surprise did not make the dialogue. Or, maybe, it truth was so different from legend they did not see it for what it was.) After all, of the manifold array of cuneiform tablets that survive from old Sumeria, the largest portion are not myths or legends; they are horoscopes. And just because language and tablets exists and can be read does not mean that there is knowledge of the civilization. Linguists would work backwards from known languages, taking successive steps backward in learning root languages, coming at last to whatever they know of the Zeal language. However, since most of the literary sources of the kingdom proper were destroyed in its fabled fall, it is likley that they hit a historical wall of sorts. They trace this mystery root language to a dark age (the following the fall of Zeal), and have scarce records of that time, but while, plainly, it is not the origin of the language, there are no earlier records. Thus, a mysterious hole in the line. With this explanation there is on preclusion of the knowledge of Zeal, but the language itself can be known... just not as the language of Zeal, but as an 'ancient' language. In this manner Lucca could have learned it.
Remember, after all, civilizations can remain very mysterious to history for long periods of time, even great ones. The Hittites were some of the first people to work iron, and a great power in the Middle-East in the 1600 to 1200 BC time period... yet it was not until this century that people learned of its existance.

Zaperking

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2210
    • View Profile
Zealian language
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2005, 06:46:37 pm »
Umm I'f im not mistaken, Robo accidently read the MasaMune backwards and realised that it was M-E-L-C-H-I-O-R instead of R-O-I-H-C-L-E-M.

Also, without real game evidence suggesting that Lucca knew Zealian, she probably just spoke normal english. Have Ayla and Frog with Crono in Zeal and they understand the people of Zeal normally. Robo probably only does what he does to make it seem like he is acctually a robot and has all these functions >.>

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8325
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Zealian language
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2005, 08:22:46 pm »
Perhaps the writing on the Masamune that holds Melchior's name isn't Zealian (this is where you'd use Zealian, right? to show something is Zeal-like in nature) at all, but an even older language...Zeal DID have plenty of books, right?

Daniel Krispin

  • Guest
Zealian language
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2005, 08:40:38 pm »
No, I don't think you'd ever use Zealian. The noun is 'Zeal', and the - what's that part of speech? Whichever denotes the possession of something - is 'Zealot'. Therefore whenever one speaks of something belonging to or of Zeal, whether it is a person, a sword, or whatever, one uses 'Zealot'. The Zealots were a group, after all, and if one speaks of a member of their company, such as Judas Iscariot, you would say Judas the Zealot. If you speak of, say, a plot by them, you would say a 'Zealot plot' (for those that don't know, the Zealots were an anti-Roman group in Israel circa 0.)

Anyway, I truly think that the unification of the language into one standard is a simple gameplay quirk. After all, other languages DO plainly exist, such as Latin. Likewise does Greek for words such as Chrono. The only way to avoid this is to say that these are all transliterations from a base language that is spoken. This, then, would open the door to the game being an interpretation of truth (as all stories inherently are), and allow for multiple languages that are never precisely shown.

To be honest, not taking into account the shift in language is as grievous as not accounting for changing weaporny or clothing or architechtural styles in different time periods. I mean, would it be any fun if Zeal looked like 1000AD? The language is just another facet of the setting, and an often overlooked one.

Finally, just a note, Melchior itself is either coincidental, or a translation from the Zeal tongue into a later language, as Melchior is a real name - that it's a real name most people know. I'm not sure what it means, but Melchizedek means 'the king of righteousness', and in that the first part denotes 'king'. Therefore whatever Melchior means, it has something to do with 'king'. Likewise, Belthesar pertains to an ancient high god in some aspects, but more generally to the word 'lord', that is 'Bel' - this is given to many gods in the old world. So it is plain that one of a few things must be: the names are simply translations into later Akkadian etc. (my personal view), and that in Zeal they had different names; or that the real world can be fully discounted, which in light of crosses, cathedrals, AD, Latin, Greek, and such things as that, it cannot be; or, it is coincidence. I would tend to say the first, save with Melchior, which fits with a different meaning into my perception of the Zeal tongue. Just like Tolkien does with Samwise: his real name is Banazir, but it means 'half-wit', which in English rendering is Samwise. Even Lord of the Rings is given as an interpretation and retelling of the tales of the Red Book; I think Chrono Trigger is much of the same, and Chrono Cross is without doubt such (who has failed to note that it begins and ends with reading from a book, after all? Someone is retelling the story of Chrono Cross, it is absolutely certain. And everyone knows how tellings can get... changed.) Thus perhaps things in Chrono Trigger, and certianly not in Chrono Cross, can be taken at face value, and must be approached in the same way that any legend or myth that is re-told is approached: with cautions regarding how things would actually have happened, and how aspects change or are simplified in the telling. The Zeal language could well be one of those aspects performed by the storyteller.

On this last note, especially regarding Chrono Cross, what are the implications of this?

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Zealian language
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2005, 08:54:46 pm »
Okay, I missed something.  When did Robo ever try and translate the Masamune?  In the game, Lucca did.  Its not like you have to be a linguist to translate some'ones name.  And what is this CTNP thing?

Daniel Krispin

  • Guest
Zealian language
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2005, 09:59:04 pm »
Quote from: Sentenal
Okay, I missed something.  When did Robo ever try and translate the Masamune?  In the game, Lucca did.  Its not like you have to be a linguist to translate some'ones name.  And what is this CTNP thing?

CTNP is the Chrono Trigger Novel Project. And, actually, the reason someone needed to translate was that it wasn't in English letters. It's said to be an archaic script. It's like reading cuneiform or something like that: even the letters are un-recognizable to the unenlightened.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10592
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Zealian language
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2005, 10:02:01 pm »
Same reason the Star Trek crews can beam down to advanced and primitive cultures and speak the same language.

Radical_Dreamer

  • Entity
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2773
    • View Profile
    • The Chrono Compendium
Zealian language
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2005, 11:54:42 pm »
Quote from: Guardian_of_Ages
Quote from: Sentenal
Okay, I missed something.  When did Robo ever try and translate the Masamune?  In the game, Lucca did.  Its not like you have to be a linguist to translate some'ones name.  And what is this CTNP thing?

CTNP is the Chrono Trigger Novel Project. And, actually, the reason someone needed to translate was that it wasn't in English letters. It's said to be an archaic script. It's like reading cuneiform or something like that: even the letters are un-recognizable to the unenlightened.


I suppose that would be transliteration. If that's the case, then that solves the problem right there.

Eggith Cyrene

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 126
    • View Profile
Zealian language
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2005, 03:00:26 am »
Quote from: ZeaLitY
Same reason the Star Trek crews can beam down to advanced and primitive cultures and speak the same language.



Well they actulary explain that lil tidbit away with a device called a "universal translater"


But yeah Its doubtful that the language would be the same, not to mention that preheistoric peoples could speak and understand english albeit ....slowly

Sentenal

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1948
    • View Profile
Zealian language
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2005, 06:57:22 pm »
But they still speak it.

SilentMartyr

  • Magical Dreamer (+1250)
  • *
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
    • http://www.chronotrigger.info
Zealian language
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2005, 11:55:34 pm »
Quote
Lucca: It's engraved with archaic
letters.
I think I can read it.
Um...mm...
Lucca: ...M...e...l...c...h...i...o...r!
Lucca: «Melchior?!»
That guy in Medina Village?

Robo: Something is written in
archaic script.
I will translate...
Robo: .........
R...o...i...h...c...l...e...m?
Robo: Roihclem?
Robo: System error!
I reversed it!
It says «Melchior!»


If you don't have Lucca in the group Robo does the translation. So it is a different language.